American Reef Lighting vs Japanese Reef Lighting - Here it is!

[Frick-n-Frags]

Now, getting past philosophies, it does seem that several double ended bulbs of hitherto unheard of colors(temp ratings) are in use by this guy. Without starting up the "HQI vs the world" arguements which I also seem to get into too frequently, if he does describe the manufacturer/model of the DE metal halides please pass it along.

Has he made any explanation or references to the term "HQI" vs the term metal halide? My angle is this: It would be interesting to see their view or should I say convention, regarding the differences in ballasting wrt bulbs and how they treat the term HQI. The AB DE pic looks very much like an HQI bulb, is it? I think in Europe the term HQI is used like our term MH and it is all so frickin confusing.

God's own bulb: Best efficiency, best coral growing colors(ie actinic blue) what you get when you cross a radium with an HQI, at least that is how I imagine it. Does this guy seem to have a finger on a blue HQI?????


And I apologize, but my first instinct when looking at that overall pic for the tenth time is to tear that jumble down and build a super reflector that would just roast that tank with all those lights.
Jeeez, i could do an awesome sunrise/day cycle or a moving sun simulation, but he has used each light for a specific area and can't stage the timing as effectively. So once again. He offers valuable info which should be absorbed, but this isn't the end-all, no-one's reef is the end-all yet.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

One public service announcement regarding additional UV in your tank:

It seems that most mogul based and other single ended bulbs can be run successfully without additional cover glass and not severely damage the corals (I have an A. gemmifera that gets a little scorched by the Iwasaki about 10" away from it)

It seems that my Ushio 250w DE HQI (just to thoroughly describe it) puts out some hot UV that flat kills the coral tissue that it shines on.
I modified my standard old Hamilton 250w sidemount, with internal ballast. I chopped off the ballast to get it away from the tank and so i could run air through the housing, but this left one end open. When i first set that up I killed some coral because of the open side, I had guessed, and just a month or two ago, I took the reflector down for some reef maintenance and accidentally put it back up backwards. In a day or so the burns showed up on a whole bunch of Acros, all at the correct angle from the HQI at the other end of the tank, cooked white to the bone, whereas the shaded areas were fine. The corals are not regrowing like a little bleach or war burn grows back either. Twice is sure proof enough for me: keep the glass on those HQI DE lamps, even the side light off the reflector is lethal.

 

[ravenmore]

First of all, let me say I don't think the Japanese are necessarily "better" reef keepers than we are (or the germans for that matter). They have a different approach and I think it's interesting to look at, but is what we are looking at representative of all Japanese tanks, or just a select few that are "the best"? I have seen some gorgeous American tanks that are every bit as impressive.

I will agree that a lot of japanese tanks try to create entire, but miniature, reefscapes - kind of like underwater bonzaii trees. If that's your thing, hey, it's cool and I appreciate and respect the devotion and dicipline to create it.

As far as the light is concerned, I'm still not convinced it isn't just the overall amount of light over the tank. Also, you have to look at more than the apparent color of the bulb. Iwasaki's, for example, actually put out a fair amount of light in the blue spectrums (maybe even more than a coralife bulb - which are predominantly blue to the eye). The reason they look yellow is that there is even more light in other spectrums that "overwhelms" the blue/violet spectrum.

Sorry, I'm rambling and while I'm at it I apologize for the mispellings. Couldn't get the darn spell check to work.

Bottom line, I think it's cool to look at the way others approach this but it's also important not necessarily buy into it hook, line, and sinker. As it is, this thread makes me want to go out and buy a dual 400 watt setup and add it to what I have already over my tank. Darn it - when does the spending stop.........

 

[absolutc]

Anyone that is intrested, I should have some more info later on in the day

 

[joeychitwood]

Can you post some full tank pictures?

Awesome lighting set up. You and only you should be the judge of how many and what kind of lights you place in your system.

 

[absolutc]

Heres some more food for thought:

As Mr.Komatu has said by the lower message, the SCREW type metal halide lamps are made by OKAMURA-DENSAN Japan, and these part number are MSC-150W/BLW(blue type) and MSC-150W/PNK(red type).
These products are very nice for improving the color of coral. However, since the light intensity is not so strong,compared with other standard MH lamps, we need to use two or more lamps for make coral to rich color.
However, as far as I know, I think that these products have not put on the market except Japan.
USIO red halogen bulbÕs part number is JDR 110V-85WPM/K7 or JDR 110V-50WPM/K7, a dichroic coated,stippled mirror reflector type tungsten hallogen lamps. It's lamp base is E11 type.
Although I referred to the products catalog of Usio USA, there was no same product.
In order to improve the color of some kinds of coral,I said that red metal halide is effevtive.?@But I think that a halogen bulb has no such effect because of weak light intensity compared with MH lamp.
I use a halogen bulb to correct the color of the tank which became blue too much, and to irradiate moderate UV.
As you know, the light of a metal halide lamp has very sharp peak wavelength, I think it effective to use the light of many peaks together for make coral to rich color.
The fluorescent light RB47 or BB450 is made paying attention to the peak of photosynthesis but it has no effect to colored the coral. Isn't the fluorescent light of purple or blue sold in the United States? It has wavelength united with the depth of water which coral inhabits.
Although I do not know that there is any difference between BB450 and other standard blue fluorescent light.
I will mail to KOWA and Okamura, and asks whether there is any way to purchase these products in the U.S.
And Let me give you the information if a reply comes.
Most important things to make rich colored coral I think is to use many high kelvin rating(10K or?@over) MH lamp and keep nitrate/phosphate level very low or not detectable.


The screw type bulb he mentions is manufactured and distributed by this company -- http://www.okamura-densan.co.jp/

If you click here -- http://www.okamura-densan.co.jp/index2.htm
it will take you to the index page. You can view most all of the light bulbs they offer. Yes its in japanese, but a pictures worth a thousand words

Also, he mentioned in his diary that is tank and sump are approximately 1000 liters - Around 265 US Gallons.

 

[pcmankey]

I would just cut a section of my roof off at that point and save the $1000+ electricity bill.

 

[Green Chromis]

Hi everyone, looking at Mr.Komatu's tank it is very impressive. I noticed on his website that he put his LPS and soft corals on one side of his tank and SPS corals on the other side, in all my years of diving on mother natures reefs i've never seen it like that , the lower light loving corals are a little deeper on the reef while the light loving corals are closer to the surface of the water, higher up on the reef. Where I dive now, the reefs of S.Fl. the SPS corals, gorgonians, soft corals are all group together on the same area of the reef. This is the type of reef setup I use and IMO this is the most natural looking way to set up a Carribean Patch reef, using a vertical coral arrangement according to light requirements instead a horizontal setup would also look more natural. Besides I wouldn't want to have to use spot lights on all my different types of corals that are grouped so close together, or pay the electric bill, it's bad enough as it is.

 

[Grandis]

Hi,
Without talking about the proper food for the corals, is kind of dificult to begin to bring the real colors, 'cause it doesn't depends on light only. We didn't bring here what are the principles of japanese reefkeeping, biologically speaking. I hope that they're similar, or better then ours. We know that some of them use a lot of chemistry (products) in their tanks, but this is not aways a good sign also. Another thing that you guys should notice is that the japanese guys HAVE TO USE A LOT OF WATTS because of the distance from the bulbs to the aquarium. Why they do that? This guys probably have different concepts regarding the aesthetics all the way (house / aquarium). Hehe... I prefer the way we put our lights. And not to HAVE TO pay that electric bill also. To me this difference of reeftank lighting is ONLY aesthetics and not an improvement to the hobby. Maybe it's bad for the corals too. Who knows? Maybe what they think is good is not, and we can't judge by pictures. They're good with pictures, remember that? Again, we need to wait longer to see how bad it could be or maybe we'll need to do what they do to see. I would love to feel good about those heavy lights, but I don't see anithing that impresses me besides the color of the pictures and the way they place the corals in some cases (is different). Like other people posted before, they change the corals like they would change clothes (not an ofence, please!), is that why the coral heads look so nice? Hope not. I'm glad Frick-n-Frags posted some good info around here.
Grandis.

 

[nardis]

Oh go ahead and pick it apart why don't you. He wasn't trying to impress you, he just wanted to show you how he does his reef. No one said anything about excess when HiloJack's 58 gallon tank had 3 400 watters and a 1000 watter in the middle. This tank was 58 GALLONS (a starfish could touch the front and back at the same time). Now that is impressive, his colors were impressive, the tank was impressive (I know, I've seen it), but is it for me? No, but I can take from it what I find useful and make it my own. I'm tired of the whole "My skimmer cup is bigger than yours" crap!! It's reefkeeping here, not the Olympics.

 

[nardis]

I'll tell you what I wish, I wish that decent lighting here did not cost a fortune. I would love to have DE lighting on my reef because if anything, it is efficient at providing corals with the light that they need without taking up too much space. 3x2x2 ft tank. what are my options? Pendants that have a crappy light spread or german AB pendants either one costs more than they are worth for a 3ft tank. I don't need this guys lighting set-up, I can't afford it but I would love to have the opportunity to buy it. Where are the dealers? Where are those cool spot lights? I'll take three!!! I am serious so if you know, please post the info between all the criticism.

 

[Grandis]

Nardis, if you're tired of that kinda crap, I don't care. Really. I didn't say anything to tell people that "our skimmer cup is bigger than the Japanese skimmer's cup". Are you japanese? Hehe. Ok, read my post again and you'll understand (I hope), that what I've said is not to think by what we want to think, and, to try to search more before we really believe in what we are reading sometimes around here. Please don't be agressive, try to relax. This is just a hobby, my friend.

"No one said anything about excess when HiloJack's 58 gallon tank had 3 400 watters and a 1000 watter in the middle. "

Hehe, this is waist of money in my oppinion. Is insane and we don't need that at all.

Grandis.

 

[nardis]

Grandis
forgive me, it is just that I get tired of seeing a good subject in the bulletin board and when I click on it there just criticism and no real input. In a "normative" post I would read something like "Oh yeah I have seen these kinds of spotlights at the lighting store when I was there with my wife, they were cheap" Or "You don't need to use that much light BUT he does have a great tank." I just get tired of the bickering in the posts so I lurk and pick out what I need. I need information from this post, I need those spotlights and I want to know where to get them before the post gets pulled again. And I am not japanese, this was not the issue.

Nardis

 

[absolutc]

Grandis -

Can I see a pic or 2 of your tank?

Obviously Yasuhiro is doing something right. All the myths about how the japanese tanks are soo picture perfect - IE no coralline? Well, consider it a myth no more.

I will be posting some info about that as well.

 

[nardis]

absolut citron
If Grandis is from HI, he can't legally keep corals so it wouldn't be fair to ask for pictures that might incriminate him.

 

[Auron]

nardis,

maybe its the thread name (American VS. Japanese), but I totally agree with you; some of you guys are treating this like a world sporting event. Yasuhiro (yeah, this "guy" happens to have a name) is taking a totally different and unique approach to the hobby, and as wasteful as it might seem money wise, at least he is trying to push technology and our current theories of reefkeeping to another level. Guys like Yasuhiro are the reason we use and accept VHO and MH lighting today instead of 1000 NO bulbs. Im wondering how different this thread would be if Yasuhiro was American and a regular on RC, and still had his tank looking like that... (food for thought)

If you do some research and go to his site, you'll realize his tank has been up for almost 2 years, and he has pictures and journal entries every month. Sure I can't read what the heck he's saying, but it seems like a huge amount of information, more than I've seen on most reefer's websites. He is also keeping some difficult corals with success. Alot of his non lighting equipment is used to automate his reef, which is stuff that we can do without, but I also noticed alot of new equipment that we have not been introduced to. Whether the equipment is good or bad is unknown of course, maybe through time we can have access to some of it.

Back on topic, I will agree with most in that if he positioned his lighting lower, he could do without a lot of those lights. It seems as if the lighting is serving 50% aesthetic appeal and 50% function. The corals look incredible, maybe its just the picture, maybe not. We do not know. I'm intrigued though with the use of red and UV lighting. If I can get access to these bulbs, I will try and run some independent testing.

How will I get these bulbs you ask? Well I just contacted my military buddy who is stationed in Okinawa. He is my ex-roomate and a reefer as well. He said he'll try to check out the LFS'es during the weekend with his other fluent Japanese friend. Hopefully I can get my hands on some parts (lighting and non lighting) .So maybe we will unravel all the questions of Japanese tanks and furthermore not make assumptions or unproven statements about them.

Having that said, does anyone know the electricity rate in Japan?

Auron

 

[absolutc]

First - you are very keen on the CITRON part of my name as most don't know what absolut means -

Second - I forgot about HI - it is illegal to keep corals there.

Third - please be kind to one another Im sure the moderators are itching to pull this thread once and for all. Please don't give them that reason.

In about 3 minutes, I will update this thread... Stay tuned.

 

[absolutc]

Auron -

If you do happen to get ahold of some of these lamps, or if your buddy can pick them up.. please PLEASE be as kind to let me know or in on the deal! I really want to get ahold of them as well.

 

[absolutc]

UPDATE

UPDATE

Here are some answers to a few of my questions - which are also alot of your questions -


I will introduce that how to keep a tank clean briefly. I do not use much time on cleaning of a tank. The glass of a tank is only cleaned at once at two - three weeks. In Japan, a glass tank is liked better than the tank made from acrylics also in a large-sized tank. As for the tank made from acrylics, a scratch tends to be attached when removing algae.

Although it is natural, I think it important to maintain water quality. I regard maintaining silica and phosphate level very low and keep KH level just as 7 to 9 and calcium level being maintained by at least 350-380ppm. Too high calcium level brings about unusual growth of coralline algae (macro algae?). It is not required for coral.

To control algae, I use 50-60 blue-leg hermits, 30 red-leg hermits, 100over small silver-mouth turban(which bred naturally in my tank), 20-30 Mottled Top snails (is a Turbo Snail common in the US?),few Pincushion Tuxedo Urchin?iMespilia globulus?j which also bred naturally in my tank and sea urchin.

cleaning snails

Coralline algae will not be increased if there is intensity of light strong enough. I will consider exchange of a metal halide lamp, if coralline algae begin to be attached to a glass.

coralline algae in my tank

Of course, few coralline algae breed on glass. It cleans up by Kent Marine Algae Scraper(metal, long handle type) about once or twice in one month. Removing will become difficult if time passes after coralline algae breed.

this tank has not cleaned up at all for two weeks

And adding the pics of usio red halogen bulb

Thats the update - What I find most intresting, we try/do keep our calcium levels at 450- 450+ , whereas Yasuhiro keeps them at much lower levels. Something to ponder over?

Kris

 

[nardis]

I didn't mean that as a dis toward Grandis, I just stated a fact. Grandis has always contributed to the board from what I see and if he doesn't have a reef he must do a lot of research. His post have helped me out a couple of times.
-
Yasuhiro must have a great deal of light to prohibit coraline from growing, but I think Tubs mentioned something like this happening in his tank when he used 6500k bulbs.
-
I have been looking for these 250 DE spotlights for some time because they would work for the dimensions of my tank. If anyone has any suggestions for a lighting solution feel free to help me, Japanese or otherwise