Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[d2mini]

Different strokes for different folks.:wildone:

Exactly, and actually you are agreeing with what I've been saying all along but unfortunately "too thick" to realize.

But what's different is that I am actually nice to the person who likes something that I don't and realize that we all have different preferences. You've been on the attack with everyone, even those that apparently agree with you! Life ok? Something gotcha down? Maybe you need to take a break and reevaluate. I'm starting to get a little worried. :hmm2:

You basically said earlier that mh or t5 would produce any colors that led would and that they are natural and found when diving.
Now you are saying those colors are not natural? I personally don't think they are but if I said that you would accuse me of never having gone diving/snorkeling.

 

[Johnseye]

And besides, Metal Halides and deep sand beds with a good Berlin system is the ONLY(thanks ironeagle) way to maintain a proper tank period.

Here here. :beer: So don't do anything different folks cause you'll be doin' it wrong!

Someone write a book or something. :reading:

We are in the lounge johnike.

 

[Nanook]

[flamealert]

 

[Nanook]

It applies to everyone participating.

 

[jfuka78]

What is your definition of natural? 1 meter is completely different than 5 meters, as for the color of light getting through.

 

[nynick]

I think the definition of natural if very lax in most peoples minds. It is basically anything "NOT" like the pictures higher up on the page. Not natural as it the way it actually looks but rather that it does not look like the coral has just heard the words "beam me up Scotty".

...at least it is to me.

There is of course not one natural look, as it changes with light and weather. The murky dark brown look of rainy season is probably nothing we would like to copy at home.

 

[Johnseye]

I think many people's definition of natural is as close to the color spectrum of light we are accustomed to viewing things in, ie. daylight, light bulb light which is around 6500k. Temperatures slightly beyond that are not much different so easy to become accustomed to and accept. More extreme temps are further from our typical viewing color so may be less appealing because they are so different. Single nm color lights are also extreme.

In the end it is an aquarium, and like art is subject to the viewers interpretation of what looks good to them. It doesn't have to mimic what's found in nature. I think many of us would like that so we know we're looking at a slice of the real ocean.

 

[jfuka78]

Looking at a slice of the ocean varies as well. Also depends on where you are diving or snorkeling at. Most people with aquariums have never snorkeled or dived and actually have no idea what natural is. That is the best part. The only natural they know is what they see on tv or in stores.

It is a hobby and like you said, it is like art and we all interpret differently.

 

[d2mini]

IMO, arguing about what "natural" means is 1)pointless due to personal interpretation and 2)an exercise in looking for an argument. It's pretty safe to say that we all know what someone means when they prefer a more "natural" look vs the pic posted above.

I really suggest we drop it now, and let this thread get back to it's original topic.

 

[Sugar Magnolia]

<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>

In case some of you missed this earlier. This applies to everyone participating in this thread.

 

[Khemul]

Considering we have the phrase "browned out" as a negative... yeah, "natural" is too subjective to discuss adequately. :crazy1:

Which is why the whole MH vs. LED debate is, and has been for a very long time, an aesthetic argument. It's entirely about getting the perfect shade of color out of a piece of SPS. For some, this is a very precise art. It's the type of precision that a lot won't even see. They'll look at two frags and see the same exact frag. They won't see the minute differences.


It's sort of like paint colors. For some there is a color wheel of various 'off-white' colors. For others, there is a blank sheet of paper...

 

[grigsy]

Which is why the whole MH vs. LED debate is, and has been for a very long time, an aesthetic argument. It's entirely about getting the perfect shade of color out of a piece of SPS.

Not really. There is much more to it than just that.

For me, after using LEDs, I think Metal Halides are just a better overall reef light for more reasons other than just aesthetics being better under metal halides.

In addition to aesthetics, I find like so many others, the growth from corals to be much better under metal halides. I have yet to see an LED tank with the coral growth any where near what I have seen under metal halides.

Also, there is the shadowing problem with LEDs that you don't get with metal halides.

Also, there is the overhyped "savings" with LEDs which is often a regurgitated sales/marketing point of LED companies.

If you don't use a chiller, which most metal halide users do not, there's no savings from LEDs especially when you consider the up front cost and the cost associated with heaters running much more often when using LEDs. Many LED people are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th LED fixture already because their original LED fixture which was supposed to be "just like a 250 watt metal halide" has either crapped out or they want the latest and greatest while MH users simply change their bulbs once every 12 - 16 months.

 

[Stlouphil]

Not really. There is much more to it than just that.

For me, after using LEDs, I think Metal Halides are just a better overall reef light for more reasons other than just aesthetics being better under metal halides.

In addition to aesthetics, I find like so many others, the growth from corals to be much better under metal halides. I have yet to see an LED tank with the coral growth any where near what I have seen under metal halides.

Also, there is the shadowing problem with LEDs that you don't get with metal halides.

Also, there is the overhyped "savings" with LEDs which is often a regurgitated sales/marketing point of LED companies.

If you don't use a chiller, which most metal halide users do not, there's no savings from LEDs especially when you consider the up front cost and the cost associated with heaters running much more often when using LEDs. Many LED people are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th LED fixture already because their original LED fixture which was supposed to be "just like a 250 watt metal halide" has either crapped out or they want the latest and greatest while MH users simply change their bulbs once every 12 - 16 months.

Nice job. You summed up 112 pages of debate in ONE post! :dance:

 

[Khemul]

Not really. There is much more to it than just that.

For me, after using LEDs, I think Metal Halides are just a better overall reef light for more reasons other than just aesthetics being better under metal halides.

In addition to aesthetics, I find like so many others, the growth from corals to be much better under metal halides. I have yet to see an LED tank with the coral growth any where near what I have seen under metal halides.

Also, there is the shadowing problem with LEDs that you don't get with metal halides.

Also, there is the overhyped "savings" with LEDs which is often a regurgitated sales/marketing point of LED companies.

If you don't use a chiller, which most metal halide users do not, there's no savings from LEDs especially when you consider the up front cost and the cost associated with heaters running much more often when using LEDs. Many LED people are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th LED fixture already because their original LED fixture which was supposed to be "just like a 250 watt metal halide" has either crapped out or they want the latest and greatest while MH users simply change their bulbs once every 12 - 16 months.

I personally count the the shadowing and growth as aesthetic problems. They sort of interconnect and/or overlap under the blanket of "my corals just don't look as nice". I also entirely agree with your post. :beer:

 

[Logzor]

Not really. There is much more to it than just that.



For me, after using LEDs, I think Metal Halides are just a better overall reef light for more reasons other than just aesthetics being better under metal halides.



In addition to aesthetics, I find like so many others, the growth from corals to be much better under metal halides. I have yet to see an LED tank with the coral growth any where near what I have seen under metal halides.



Also, there is the shadowing problem with LEDs that you don't get with metal halides.



Also, there is the overhyped "savings" with LEDs which is often a regurgitated sales/marketing point of LED companies.



If you don't use a chiller, which most metal halide users do not, there's no savings from LEDs especially when you consider the up front cost and the cost associated with heaters running much more often when using LEDs. Many LED people are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th LED fixture already because their original LED fixture which was supposed to be "just like a 250 watt metal halide" has either crapped out or they want the latest and greatest while MH users simply change their bulbs once every 12 - 16 months.

Agreed!!

 

[jestronix]

Some of my LED growth shots from back in 2011

Some of my LED growth shots from back in 2011

I thought I would add a couple of photos of my tank from back in 2011, I did up a DIY Cree XRE light and ran pure led , white blue mix.

As you can see very very DIY, this was actually an aluminum shelf holder

And here you can see mostly softies doing well.

This was my first shot some acro.

Same time, but just a nice shot of the pure blue/white combo.

Heres things starting to grow out a bit,

And the final shot is just before I moved house,

What I can say during this period is that certain types of acro grew like wildfire, somethings hated it and died out. I was new to reef keeping at this time and manually dosed, so stability was an issue, i also ran my tank in the 24 to 25c range, lower than i do today.

I also noticed i always had problems with macro algae, i think i was running natural white rather than cool white leds.

Some softies died out totally under those leds, all i can say is that LED does well for certain types of coral in my experience.

My current tank, still a 3ft 24inch deep tank, now running newer DIY led with more spectrum has shown nice growth and keeps most things alive, but .......

about 8 months ago I added 4 x 39 quality T5, and within days I noticed changes, softies opened up more, in the following weeks and months an explosion in my zoos , and my acro frags took off.

So, I while i did add more PAR to the tank, and my light covers more over head surface area, I firmly believe led is missing something, even with multi colored leds in an attempt to cover the spectrum, T5 must be covering the spectrum better.

I think led has its place, i use it now as a 50% mix with T5 and feel its making a big difference. At night the T5s are off, because i enjoy the LED look shimmer and color that i have tuned in.

Hope to start up a thread on here to cover my progress.

Im very tempted to run halide soon, TOTMs are full of halide and T5 with supplemented LED on some, LED will get there, and there are some impressive tank on pure led, but the T5 and halide tanks still win for me.

Im happy with hybrid for now.

 

[albano]

If you don't use a chiller, which most metal halide users do not...

Where does this info come from?...

 

[jestronix]

Dont know if i can post direct links to other forums, but if you search for my user name on Australia's biggest online reef forum, you should find all the above on my tank journal. Its not a scientific journal its just my experience. Hoping it can add a little to the discussion, people can take what they need from it. Maybe they experienced the same ?

As for TOTMs id like to see a pure led one that we can get information on, how they succeeded with pure led, im still waiting on this one. There are a couple where they converted to LED, that's not enough for me, start to finish TOTM pure led and ill be mimicking their method as will thousands of reefers.

 

[James77]

Where does this info come from?...

I have seen polls stating it. I have never needed one in over 10 years of halides. Jack has also not needed them, and he is in Texas....not known for cool temps

Here is one poll:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22525845

another:

http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12368310

Granted they are a small sampling of hobbyists....but most do not need chillers. With halides it is all down to heat management.

 

[albano]

I have seen polls stating it. I have never needed one in over 10 years of halides. Jack has also not needed them, and he is in Texas....not known for cool temps

Here is one poll:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22525845

another:

http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12368310

Granted they are a small sampling of hobbyists....but most do not need chillers. With halides it is all down to heat management.

Sorry, I can't believe that those 23 posts allow anyone to say that 'most MH users, don't use a chiller'... Apparently the chiller users all have cf or T5s, since LED and MH don't need them.

For the record I have previously used chillers with MH (since ~1991) and for past 4 yrs with LEDs (rarely turns on/more for 'insurance')