Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[kenpau]

Thanks!! I agree, Nothing beats MH for growth, and Hamilton is the only company offering reasonably priced MH lighting today.

And, I am NOT a shill just an honest believer.

MH is proven for growth, however IMO....it is an easy option for people who want growth but are also prepared to live with a lot of the 'cons' of having MH lighting. There are many non-MH options out there that once setup correctly offer excellent growth and colouration without the cons of MH, namely having a fixture resembling Frankensteins monster hanging over your tank, and using decades old technology of basically lighting your tank with a heater.
I started out with MH, moved to LEDs and now to an LED/T5 combo. What have I learnt.....

MH do grow corals well, however they do have drawbacks, I won't even go in bulb replacement costs because it's negligible and the fixtures are obviously far cheaper than good LEDs, however aesthetically they're not pretty generally, the Giesemann Spectra is one of the only MH fixtures I'd consider; they also kick out an unbelievable amount of heat, which depending where you live would require the need for a chiller. My initial findings with AI Sols weren't that great, I could grow LPS well but SPS growth was very limited, instead of 'dumping LEDs and going back to halides' though I read into the technology and best settings for what I wanted to achieve, then upgraded to the Hydra52s.
My experience was far better here with 'good' SPS growth, however I made the mistake of not using enough fixtures for complete cover of the tank. There is also obviously a lot of customisation available with LEDs, the Hydra52s can be set to pretty much any colour temperature you can think of, and this is where people fall down with limited growth.
My latest fixture was bought to combat the lack of spread with LEDs, I could have just bought more fixtures but went with the T5/LED hybrid, there is a lot of noise about this combination now with the benefits of LED and the proven spread and growth of T5s, especially with actinic bulbs.
If you're looking for an easy plug and play and you don't have the want (or patience) for customisation then I'd definitely opt for MH. However there is much more available now to the reef lighting experience, with the latest fixtures giving you complete control of timings and temperatures WITH excellent coral growth.

 

[mhucasey]

Soon is here.. Se if you catch the error in the vid (at 10:11):

https://youtu.be/V7XLgLiA0PM?list=PLBaMLrfToJyybUT18OE3fMomFb9XU0ffC

This is a pretty well done video, pointing out many of the discussion points here. One thing I would have liked to have seen would be par mapping and coverage with multiple units over the test tank.

I heard statements about "amazing LED tanks" but no shots from any tanks I'd call "amazing" in that video. That statement gets used here too, but I can count on one hand the amount of LED only tanks I've seen that I would call "amazing".

 

[seamonster124]

This is a pretty well done video, pointing out many of the discussion points here. One thing I would have liked to have seen would be par mapping and coverage with multiple units over the test tank.

I heard statements about "amazing LED tanks" but no shots from any tanks I'd call "amazing" in that video. That statement gets used here too, but I can count on one hand the amount of LED only tanks I've seen that I would call "amazing".

I posted on the LED proof group on FB and a bunch of people posted some super sps tanks. You might want to search on there. I dont think I saw any TOTM worthy ones but some get close. Plus LED's are too new for that. We might see more in 2-3 years maybe?

 

[sirreal63]

Plus LED's are too new for that. We might see more in 2-3 years maybe?

LED's have been over reef tanks for about 10 years now.

 

[seamonster124]

LED's have been over reef tanks for about 10 years now.

Yes they have, But they required a second mortgage until recently so I think more people are getting into them now.

I'm just hoping LED's replace halide/T5s altogether for cost reasons. Still keeping the halide fixture in the shed for maybe another couple of years to see how this thing turns out. I think we just have to wait 4 years to get a real answer on this.

 

[sirreal63]

I am guessing you haven't been around the hobby for long.

 

[ReefCowboy]

This is a pretty well done video, pointing out many of the discussion points here. One thing I would have liked to have seen would be par mapping and coverage with multiple units over the test tank.

I heard statements about "amazing LED tanks" but no shots from any tanks I'd call "amazing" in that video. That statement gets used here too, but I can count on one hand the amount of LED only tanks I've seen that I would call "amazing".

Agreed, i was pleased with the honesty from BRS on the LED episode. I would say this video has basicaly gathered tons of threads here along with really good research. What about them Kessil's AP700's? Seems they might be the ones with the quickest answer for the future of LED's in reef tanks IMO.

 

[Wazzel]

Agreed, i was pleased with the honesty from BRS on the LED episode. I would say this video has basicaly gathered tons of threads here along with really good research. What about them Kessil's AP700's? Seems they might be the ones with the quickest answer for the future of LED's in reef tanks IMO.

I only watched half the BRS LED segment. I though the part I saw was a fair assessment.

 

[Bpb]

I was really surprised with the even distribution of the ap700. It's got a funky size though. Just a hair too small to be used over a 4 foot tank, two over a 6 foot tank would be awesome. For your standard 55-75-90-120 gallon it would be difficult to get useable coverage from one unit

 

[karimwassef]

I'm a combination user (MH+LED). I like the MH effect but it's relatively low in par to bulb+reflector size. I'll call this "light fixture density". LEDs generate 2-3x more light per watt and are directional. This means that a small lens can achieve what a massive reflector used to for MH.

Let me add that the current growth in multi chip LEDs is going to allow us to get to 2000W in a space comparable to what a MH 400W bulb + reflector used to take. At 2-3x the par, that's 5KW equivalent in MH or 12x the fixture density to par output.

These multichips with lenses can emulate the effects of MH bulbs. New lenses can also allow for a much wider spread of light from these little fixtures. Add the potential to liquid cool LEDs and even submerge them under saltwater (in an enclosure) in closed systems with cooling loops to get maximum light output....

This is actually overkill unless you have 1000gal or more, but it works as a basic comparison to where LEDs are headed.

MH is mature tech. LED is still evolving.

For now, I like my blend and will keep using it, but as this thread matures over the next decade, I'm sure we'll be talking about a number of new variables.

 

[ReefCowboy]

I was really surprised with the even distribution of the ap700. It's got a funky size though. Just a hair too small to be used over a 4 foot tank, two over a 6 foot tank would be awesome. For your standard 55-75-90-120 gallon it would be difficult to get useable coverage from one unit

I was VERY surprised to say the least! Looking at the AP700 fixture, one would def think the two clusters are too far apart, prefering the design used by AI/Ecotech with pucks close together. I personaly like the shimmer the regular kessils bring, although the tanks ive seen using them seem a bit dark.

Heres a link to a review of the light, and i wasnt aware it has a reflector which now makes me understand the better coverage on the brs tests. Was that feature pointed in the brs video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVxRtL7a2Q

 

[mhucasey]

I was VERY surprised to say the least! Looking at the AP700 fixture, one would def think the two clusters are too far apart, prefering the design used by AI/Ecotech with pucks close together. I personaly like the shimmer the regular kessils bring, although the tanks ive seen using them seem a bit dark.

They must be doing something different than just putting two Kessils in one housing, based on the power and spread. That was legitimately surprising. They are pretty expensive though.

 

[karimwassef]

As a DIYer, I can put together a 600W multichip design together for about $700 - with dimming and liquid cooling even.

So if you're worried that 185W Kessil for $800 is the new norm - don't. These solutions will come down significantly in price over time.

 

[mhucasey]

As a DIYer, I can put together a 600W multichip design together for about $700 - with dimming and liquid cooling even.

So if you're worried that 185W Kessil for $800 is the new norm - don't. These solutions will come down significantly in price over time.

I've seen the results of the "dream chip" multi chip. Sorry, but its not very impressive.

I've considered a DIY project to reproduce the Lani Led design which uses a lot of emitters spread out(80 emitters in a 16" X 16" panel), but between the cost of emitters, drivers, heatsinks, etc. even building one test panel would be about 400 to 500 dollars.

Just covering my smaller tank(36" X 28") would require about 3 panels to reproduce the successful density of the Lani Approach. $1500 is a lot for something I'd take weeks to build myself. I'm surprised that emitter costs haven't dropped more - Based on the cost I recorded on the spreadsheet I made at the time, the drop is about a dime per element in a year and a half.

 

[oreo57]

I've seen the results of the "dream chip" multi chip. Sorry, but its not very impressive.

I've considered a DIY project to reproduce the Lani Led design which uses a lot of emitters spread out(80 emitters in a 16" X 16" panel), but between the cost of emitters, drivers, heatsinks, etc. even building one test panel would be about 400 to 500 dollars.

Just covering my smaller tank(36" X 28") would require about 3 panels to reproduce the successful density of the Lani Approach. $1500 is a lot for something I'd take weeks to build myself. I'm surprised that emitter costs haven't dropped more - Based on the cost I recorded on the spreadsheet I made at the time, the drop is about a dime per element in a year and a half.

Really depends where you shop and what you want
100pcs SMD5630 5730 LED Diodes 0.5W LED Lamp Bead SMD 5630 5730 LEDs Chip Diode
$9.50 plus free shipping...

100 Royal blue Bridgelux 3W chips is $54.14


So 10 cents or 54 cents per chip.. x80

going w/ that type of density "Cadillac" chips aren't really unnecessary.. unless you want the ultimate power savings..
SMD5630's are averaging around 100lumens/W. The 3W cheapos are around 50L/W

9=3W diodes in series you would need 10 LDD's @7 each..
$70 plus $54 plus say $60 for a PS..$184 per 18x18 panel (approx) sans heatsink and wire...

 

[RobTheReefer]

I was VERY surprised to say the least! Looking at the AP700 fixture, one would def think the two clusters are too far apart, prefering the design used by AI/Ecotech with pucks close together. I personaly like the shimmer the regular kessils bring, although the tanks ive seen using them seem a bit dark.

Heres a link to a review of the light, and i wasnt aware it has a reflector which now makes me understand the better coverage on the brs tests. Was that feature pointed in the brs video?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVxRtL7a2Q

Before viewing the brs led video, I was considering 3 a360's. Now it's seems that I'm much better off with just my single ap700. If I had money to burn, I'd definitely put two over a 48" 90gal. for an acro-only tank. But I'll be happy with light loving acros in the middle third of the tank and deepwater acros and other sps in the outer thirds. Monti's at the outer edges and just above the sandbed are growing like weeds.

 

[mhucasey]

Really depends where you shop and what you want
100pcs SMD5630 5730 LED Diodes 0.5W LED Lamp Bead SMD 5630 5730 LEDs Chip Diode
$9.50 plus free shipping...

100 Royal blue Bridgelux 3W chips is $54.14


So 10 cents or 54 cents per chip.. x80

going w/ that type of density "Cadillac" chips aren't really unnecessary.. unless you want the ultimate power savings..
SMD5630's are averaging around 100lumens/W. The 3W cheapos are around 50L/W

9=3W diodes in series you would need 10 LDD's @7 each..
$70 plus $54 plus say $60 for a PS..$184 per 18x18 panel (approx) sans heatsink and wire...

I was considering it because Lani LED works. I thought it would be a fun project and I could evaluate them over a satellite tank. Lani uses 3W Cree Blue, Cree Cool white, and 405nm(can't remember the mfg) chips, and run them at 1 watt with no lenses. That boosts their efficiency and lifetime and make the whole thing work without active cooling. Something different would be cheaper but wouldn't be the same thing.

 

[mhucasey]

Lani LED tanks:

 

[Bpb]

It's been well documented that the multichip, optic, and reflector design were completely redesigned from the ground up for the ap700. It is NOT simply 2 a360 multichips in a single panel.

 

[kenpau]

That statement gets used here too, but I can count on one hand the amount of LED only tanks I've seen that I would call "amazing".

I'm not sure exactly what your point is here? If only one person on the planet has produced an amazing tank grown by LEDs then it proves LEDs work. I think there's also a couple of reasons for this, the first is cost; there's no doubt that MH is the cheap option for lighting reef systems, the initial setup of using good quality LEDs can be very expensive, so you'd assume that more tanks are lit with MH for this reason.
Secondly although LED technology has been around for about 10 years, I'd say that it's only in the last 3 years or so that we've seen a real growth in LED technology capable of growing SPS at a decent rate.
I was using AI sols 5 years ago on a 55 and unless I put 8 of them over the tank I wasn't going to get sufficient lighting for Acropora.
Now on a 150 I had 3 AI Hydra52s and was getting good Acropora growth directly under the lights, but the poor spread of the lights meant I needed more fixtures.
So the reason you've only seen a handful of amazing LED grown tanks is probably because 1. The initial cost means less people take this option, especially on larger tanks, 2. It takes time to grow out an amazing reef tank and the better LED units have only really been out 3 or 4 years, and 3. You have to have your settings correctly dialed in with LEDs, as we've seen from this thread many people just give up and go crawling back to MH, then come on here stating LEDs don't work instead of persevering and researching the right settings.