B-ionic in SPS coral systems

[Drae]

Thanks again allmost.

 

[Hammerleaf]

Question for those dosing B Ionic, do you find yourself having to dose magnesium? I ask because I see that the calcium part includes it.

 

[Drae]

Question for those dosing B Ionic, do you find yourself having to dose magnesium? I ask because I see that the calcium part includes it.

Hardly ever if you use a higher magnesium salt. Or if you dose your freshly made saltwater (which I guess is dosing lol). B-ionic definitely helps with mag and trace elements. I've been using it for a couple years and just read the label for the first time after this thread started!

 

[v1...rotate]

Thought I'd add my experiences...

I've been using ESV Calcium and Alkalinity now for +4yrs and I couldn't be happier. It is extremely easy to use and is always reliable.

It is a little $$$ compared to other options/methods however personally I'm prepared to pay as it saves me so much time in preparation and again, the mixture is always correct. No measuring/weighing required.

Question for those dosing B Ionic, do you find yourself having to dose magnesium? I ask because I see that the calcium part includes it.

I don't dose Mg at all as it's not required. My Mag level is stable with Alk and Ca dosage only. Weekly water changes are also conducted which IMO is very important!

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Question for those dosing B Ionic, do you find yourself having to dose magnesium? I ask because I see that the calcium part includes it.

of course the answer to this depends on how fast YOUR aquarium animals deplete Mg along with (as previously mentioned) YOUR water change schedule and YOUR choice of salt mix.

In short, you need to test YOUR aquarium and add Mg/Ca/alkalinity supplements as necessary.
IMO/IME the BRS/Randy Holmes-Farley recipe for liquid Mg supplement is a great alternative to the more expensive BRS offering AND there are two different liquid Mg recipes (using different ratios of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate) so you can fine tune it in case you run a calcium reactor.

After many years of use, I was quite hesitant making the jump from B-ionic to DIY preparations... but once I did it I saw no difference in the appearance of my aquarium corals. However, the savings in dollars was incredible as my aquarium corals deplete alkalinity and calcium at an unbelievable rate.
The DIY preparations are extremely quick and easy (basically adding different types of powder to water and shaking) and and I can't imagine paying someone else to do it for me. (Besides- sometimes you STILL have to shake B-ionic alkalinity containers when a brick forms at the bottom!)

In short, I like B-ionic. I understand that shipping (water) weight and pre-preparation drives it's price up. I would still like to know what it's "secret" ingredient is vs DIY preparations.

If you understand what I'm posting.. you get it.

 

[elegance coral]

I get it. I do have a couple of questions though.

my aquarium corals deplete alkalinity and calcium at an unbelievable rate.

How much two part do you dose in a day?
Do you run a calcium reactor?
Do you use kalk?

Peace
EC

 

[Mark]

If the ingredient listings are accurate, then it may not be such a secret. The extra trace elements in B-Ionic could be the differentiating factor, while BRS is essentially soda ash, calcium chloride, and magnesium chloride.

Based on the bottles, ESV also contains: potassium, bromide, strontium, lithium, barium, rubidium, iron, zinc, nickle, copper, manganese, cobalt, chromium, sulfate, borate, fluoride, iodide, molybdate, vanadate, and selenate.

Whether any or all of them make a difference is beyond my scope. It might matter more for those who exclusively dose rather than supplement a calcium reactor. After all, melting dead coral in a reactor will inevitably add elements as well.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

It might matter more for those who exclusively dose rather than supplement a calcium reactor. After all, melting dead coral in a reactor will inevitably add elements as well.

valid point and it could very well be a huge factor

EC- all of my makeup water is kalkwasser dosed with Litermeter.
I run a calcium reactor which is (admittedly) too small for my 260 gallon system. (MRC dual nano. I run this reactor pedal to the metal and I know that a larger reactor is the solution to my problem.) I try and do a 50 gallon water change weekly with Reef Crystals (new RC usually 10dKH-11dKH @ SG 1.025-1.026) although some weeks I just don't get around to a water change.
With just the calcium reactor and kalkwasser (no bumps with liquid two parts) my aquarium dKH will drop from 9dKH to 6dKH in one week.

"Old timers" will recall when B-ionic first came out.

Back in those days I was relying on kalkwasser and water changes ALONE to maintain Ca/alk (as were many others).

When B-ionic first got marketed and we tried it.. the stuff appeared to be "magical".
No negativity. It certainly "works"

 

[Hammerleaf]

It appears that the B-Ionic is closing to a balling type system. The Fauna Marin balling system has trace elements added to both the calcium and carbonate portion of the mix. That's why I asked about mag, because I wasn't sure if ESV found a way to do the 3 part balling in a 2 part formula, but it appears that is not the case.

Red Sea has a reef colors program that has 4 parts: iodine, potassium, iron, and trace metals. Most of these are included in the B-Ionic mix. According to the instructions Red Sea reef colors are dosed based on the calcium usage. It just looks like the B-Ionic adds these in the correct ratios so you don't have to add these trace elements separately, similar to the full balling method.

Right now I'm using BRS 2 part and Red Sea reef colors. Once I run out of my current supply I think I will switch to B-Ionic for a more simple approach.

 

[Hammerleaf]

Not to highjack the thread, but can I ask what salt mix you use for water changes? Just curious because your tank if off the chain!

Thought I'd add my experiences...

I've been using ESV Calcium and Alkalinity now for +4yrs and I couldn't be happier. It is extremely easy to use and is always reliable.

It is a little $$$ compared to other options/methods however personally I'm prepared to pay as it saves me so much time in preparation and again, the mixture is always correct. No measuring/weighing required.



I don't dose Mg at all as it's not required. My Mag level is stable with Alk and Ca dosage only. Weekly water changes are also conducted which IMO is very important!

 

[v1...rotate]

Not to highjack the thread, but can I ask what salt mix you use for water changes? Just curious because your tank if off the chain!

Thank you. I use Korallen Zucht reefers best salt.

 

[CaptiveReef]

I use C- Balance

I use C- Balance

I have been using C- balance for years, I use the 1 gallon 2 part size. With a lot of success.

CaptiveReef

 

[Big E]

The DIY preparations are extremely quick and easy (basically adding different types of powder to water and shaking) and and I can't imagine paying someone else to do it for me.

I've been using Randy's two part exclusively for 5+ years. I spent $30 on 100 lbs. of Dow Flake back then, and still haven't used it up.

Baking soda is dirt cheap.........around 50 cents for a one pound box. Larger boxes will get you better prices at the grocery store.

Randy's recipes are exact and balanced, so they are used up at the same time. I dose both at equal amounts. My water changes keep the Mg in the 1300-1350 range.

I'm currently dosing 105ml a day.

 

[symbiodinium]

This is a very interesting thread and quite helpful to me as I will be throwing away all of my individual bottles of Kent additives for the Bionic two part.

Do any of you test for any of the other elements such as Strontium or Iodide or mainly Calcium, Alkalinity and Mag?

Do I need to or is this kept up in my water changes?

I only have one LFS here in Charleston so I am limited, I switched to Red Sea Pro salt as they stopped carrying Kent, are any of you using this salt and do you think it is a good salt?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

After all, melting dead coral in a reactor will inevitably add elements as well.

so does what you feed your aquarium. Perhaps more significant amounts than a reactor. That's what I've always believed. Depending on the foods being fed, significant amounts of trace elements are being added to an aquarium daily.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

good to review

Excerpt on liquid two parts taken from Randy Holmes-Farley's above (linked) article:

Two-part Balanced Additive Systems
There are now a plethora of two-part balanced systems for supplementing calcium and alkalinity. These are always liquid additives that you add equally to tanks to supplement both calcium and alkalinity. The rational is that the bicarbonate and carbonate that one might like to dose to supplement alkalinity are not readily compatible with the calcium that is also needed. So one portion contains calcium and the other contains the alkalinity.

In the simplest form, such a system would be provided by any calcium salt at one concentration in one bottle, and a carbonate alkalinity supplement at twice the equivalent concentration in the other bottle (twice because when calcium carbonate forms, it requires two units of alkalinity for each unit of calcium). Within that constraint, manufacturers have a fair amount of room to play.

Typically these additives claim go a step further. When the calcium and alkalinity are taken out of the picture, as they will be by calcification in the tank, then the ions that remain are often described as having the same ratios of ions as natural seawater. Assuming that this is true, then the “residue” is simply more salt for the tank water. Over long periods of time the salinity will build up due to this process (an effect that is quantified below), but there will be no significant buildup of specific ions in the tank.

In order to accomplish this, manufacturers could use a variety of calcium salts in the calcium portion, for example. They could use calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium bromide, and a variety of other similar salts. They could also put magnesium and strontium in this portion as they would not be compatible with the alkalinity component.

The alkalinity portion of these systems is more complicated. As has been shown in other parts of this article, alkalinity can be provided as bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide. I don’t know of any commercial supplements that use hydroxide, but the commercial ones do use bicarbonate, carbonate, and mixtures thereof. Consequently the pH varies substantially between brands, and the various brands of these products should not be thought of as identical for this reason, if no other. In order to attain the natural seawater residue, the alkalinity portion could contain sodium bicarbonate or carbonate, potassium bicarbonate or carbonate, lithium bicarbonate or carbonate, etc.

I’ve not seen any independent test of whether these actually produce a residue equivalent to natural seawater, but I’ve seen no particular reason to doubt it, at least for the major ions. When it comes to the trace elements that might concern some reef keepers, it seems unlikely that these products will be any less prone to having uncontrolled levels of trace compounds like copper than are commercial salt mixes, or any other supplement of calcium and alkalinity, but that remains to be determined (at least as far as I know).

One issue that has confused some reefkeepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (lets call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since it has been claimed that copper is elevated in reef tanks,11,12 and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

•You have copper in your tank at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.
•You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.
•Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.
Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (50 meq/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (600 meq/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

The costs of these systems vary a bit. The original B-ionic costs about $34 for 1 gallon of both parts (10,600 meq of alkalinity), or about $3.20 per thousand meq of alkalinity. The bicarbonate version is substantially more expensive, at about $8.90 per thousand meq of alkalinity. They also vary in pH, as mentioned above. If your tank pH gets too high using one of them (such as the original B-ionic), then it is reasonable to switch to one that has a smaller pH raising effect (like the bicarbonate B-ionic).

Water Changes
The one thing going for water changes is that it is hard to screw them up chemically (aside from salinity, pH and temperature). The bad thing is that it is impossible to replace more than a tiny amount of lost calcium and alkalinity to a tank in this way. If salt mixes were available with higher than natural seawater levels of calcium and carbonate alkalinity, then this system could be a good one for tanks with a very low demand for calcium and alkalinity. Unfortunately, most salt mixes do not fit that description, and so the best that one can typically attain using this method, regardless of the number or size of the water changes, is not quite as good as the starting salt mix, which themselves are often not as good as natural seawater.

Cost Comparison
Each of the sections above has detailed a cost estimate of using that system, though in some cases there are a variety of different options to choose from that can significant impact cost. The table below is intended to be a rough guide to the initial and yearly cost of each of these systems for three types of 100-gallon tanks:

1.Tanks with a light calcification load, defined as 50 meq of alkalinity per day (0.13 meq/L/day). This is the equivalent to the daily replacement of 0.3% of the tank volume with saturated limewater. This works out to 18,300 meq of alkalinity per year.

2.Tanks with a medium calcification load, defined as 150 meq of alkalinity per day (0.4 meq/L/day). This is the equivalent to the daily replacement of 1% of the tank volume with saturated limewater. This works out to 55,000 meq of alkalinity per year.

3.Tanks with a heavy calcification load, defined as 600 meq of alkalinity per day (1.6 meq/L/day). This is the equivalent of the daily replacement of 4% of the tank volume with saturated limewater. This works out to 219,000 meq of alkalinity per year.

Of course, smaller tanks will require less supplementation, and larger tanks will require more, and you can just scale the estimate to your tank based on it’s volume and your estimate of how much calcification is expected. Note also that some very high calcium and alkalinity demand tanks may be higher than the “high” demand tank.

As a general rule, a very small tank will probably be most economically served by a system with lowest set up costs (i.e., not a reactor of any kind), while for a larger amount of calcium and alkalinity, limewater and CaCO3/CO2 systems are likely to be the least expensive.

Table 1. Costs associated with various calcium and alkalinity supplementation schemes. Yearly Cost for a 100 Gallon Tank ($)
Method Start up Costs ($) Light Load Medium Load Heavy Load
Limewater(Bulk Lime) 20-250+ 0.60 1.70 6.60(marginally possible)
Limewater(Aquarium Lime) 20-250+ 20.80 60.50 241.00(marginally possible)
CaCO3/CO2 reactor 350-650 6.60 19.30 77.00
CaCO3w/o reactor 0 (not possible) (not possible) (not possible)
Two-part systems (original B-ionic) 0 60.00 180.00 700.00
Two-part systems (bicarbonate B-ionic) 0 170.00 490.00 1950.00
One-part Calcium acetate 0 190.00 550.00 2,190.00
One-partSalt Mixtures 0 83.00 242.00 960.00
Summary of Properties
Table 2 is a summary of the properties of the various schemes that have been discussed throughout the article. Depending on the nature of the reef tank itself, some of these attributes may be more or less important, and it is up to each individual aquarist to decide what best fits their needs. In every instance, the entries in this table represent my opinions about things that are described in more detail in the text. Other aquarists may disagree about assessments of how complex or risky something actually is, however.

Table 2. Summary of attributes associated with various calcium and alkalinity supplementation schemes. Method Limits to Addition Amount? Technical Complexity Daily Work by Aquarist? Overdose Risks Other comments
Limewater(Aquarium Lime) Moderate, based on evaporation medium Yes(no with equipment) medium Low metals
Reduced Phosphate
High pH
CaCO3/CO2 reactor none high no low Delivers metals and strontium / magnesium
Low pH
CaCO3 w/o reactor Severe limits low Yes(no with equipment) none ---
Two-part systems (original B-ionic) none low Yes(no with equipment) Low to medium Salinity Monitoring
Medium to High pH
Two-part systems (bicarbonate B-ionic) none low Yes(no with equipment) low Salinity Monitoring
Medium pH
One-part Calcium acetate None to moderate low Yes(no with equipment) low Carbon source
Medium pH
One-partSalt Mixtures none low yes low Bottle/Moisture Stability?
Salinity Monitoring
Medium pH
Summary Guidelines for Beginners
Less experiences aquarists may have some difficulty in deciding which of these various attributes are most important for their situation. In this section, I provide some guidelines in selecting a balanced calcium and alkalinity supplement for certain types of tanks. Much of what is detailed below is opinion, and other aquarists may have different opinions.

Very Small Reef Tanks
A very small tank (say, less than 10-20 gallons, especially those without a sump) will likely be served best by a system that does not involve the expenses, complications, and space requirements that come with reactors. Unless the calcification demand is very high, the costs associated with any of the simpler additives (the two-part systems, Salifert’s All in One, Tropic Marin’s Biocalcium) will probably not be prohibitive, and their ease of use makes them prime candidates. Without a sump, Biocalcium may be harder to add without solids getting onto organisms, so either of the other two types may be a better choice. Simple drip limewater is also a less expensive possibility for these types of systems, but is best used when a sump is available.

Fish Only or Fish Only + Live Rock Tanks
These systems have smaller demands for calcium and alkalinity, though rapid coralline algae growth on live rock can itself provide a significant demand. Since the demands are lower than typical reef tanks, the size tank that is best served by the simpler additives described in the previous section is greater. Maybe up to 55-90 gallons for a tank with a fair amount of live rock, and even larger with small amounts of live rock.

Large Reef Tanks
A large tank (say, more than 100 gallons) will likely be served best by a system that can deliver calcium and alkalinity at a reasonable unit price. Limewater and calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors are probably the best choices, with limewater not sufficing for the higher calcium demand tanks due to its limitation based on evaporation rates. If you are handy, you can put the system together yourself, especially limewater from a reservoir. If you aren’t handy, then by all means buy a complete system.

Medium Tanks
These are the tanks that most beginners have, containing 30-90 gallons. The logical choices to pick from are more numerous than for the systems described above, and will come down to a series of different factors.

1.Does the tank have a sump where you can add high pH additives with less concern about nearby corals? If so, that’s a plus for limewater, Biocalcium, and the high pH two-part additives.
2.Do you have a good skimmer or other source of aeration? If so, that is a plus for using limewater (that needs to suck CO2 from the air) or a calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactor (that needs to blow off excess CO2). If not, using Biocalcium, All in One, or a two-part additive that has a small pH effect (like the bicarbonate B-ionic) may be better choices.
3.Is your home very tightly sealed, with possibly high indoor CO2? That is a plus for using limewater or a high ph two-part additive as they will counteract the tendency toward low pH.
4.Do you have space under or behind the tank for equipment? If so, that is a plus for limewater or CaCO3/CO2 reactors that need space and are typically unattractive. If not, that is a big plus for the simpler additives (two-part systems, All in One, Biocalcium).
5.Are you handy with complex systems? That is a plus for CaCO3/CO2 reactor systems and complicated auto top-off systems using limewater. If not, that is a plus for the simpler systems.
6.Are you very concerned about copper or phosphate in your tank? If so, pick limewater.
7.Are you going to leave the tank unattended for more than a few days? Pick a system with automatic delivery (many can be automated with the right selection of appropriate equipment, except Biocalcium).
8.Will the tank have a very high demand for calcium and alkalinity? That is, will it have lots of fast growing corals? If so, a CaCO3/CO2 reactor would likely be the best choice.
9.How much is cost an issue? For lowest cost, a cheap limewater drip will probably be best.
Of course there are many other issues to consider, and most of these were described in the body of the article. If you are just setting up a tank for the first time, I’d advise looking at existing tanks, and deciding what you want in it first. Then look to see what kinds of supplementation schemes these tanks use, and ask the owner how it is working out, and actually see for yourself what it looks like and what is involved. Then you’ll be in a good position to make an informed choice.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

now

now

if someone was supplying me with free B-Ionic I would surely like it MORE :strange:

 

[Peter Eichler]

if someone was supplying me with free B-Ionic I would surely like it MORE :strange:

I'd still just use my calcium reactor

I'm a firm believer in the getting what you pay for in general. However, most things from a supplement company seem to totally ignore that general truth. Anyone from the 80's portion of this hobby can recall what crooks Thiel and Wilkens, and also how ill informed and shady some of their marketing and ingredients were (They also did great things for the hobby, so I'm more forgiving of them then the likes of Jack Kent, Chris Brightwell, KZ, etc). I've seen nothing to buck this trend in any supplement company since then. Preying on people's desires to treat their animals well and a loose grasp on chemistry, science and coral biology seems to be their modus operandi.

I see nothing wrong with b ionic as a product other than the crazy price. I liken it to when Thiel sold a gallon of mixed kalkwasser for $20. If you think you're getting your money's worth that's great. But, I saw no difference in my tanks when I switched to homemade 2 part from commercial. For anyone contemplating b ionic vs. homemade, I say the money you save and get a killer protein skimmer instead, but it's your money.

 

[Herbie]

Well, I am kind of on the fence now ...... :lmao: .
I have finally decided to make the jump to dosing a 2 part regiment. I have been only dosing 100% kalk water for top off for many years now (I am old school....lol :lmao, and feel its time to make the switch. Actually Randy kind of swayed my decision in another thread. Thanks Randy !
Kalk does not seems to be keeping my levels in check lately, and I am having an occasional SPS with a bit of STN/RTN that has largely been unexplained while all other corals in the system have been fine. I am attributing this to non-consistant Alk levels from my testing.
So, I am thinking of going with the ESV. Its proven and easy. Money isnt a concern, so what other reason should I be thinking of going with a DIY 2 part over the ESV b-ionic? The small amount of money saved using the DIY 2-part doesnt seem cost effective in the grand scheme of things really. I mean, for all the money we spend on our tanks, does saving a small amount of $$$ on a DIY product vs a proven commercial product really seem like its worth it ???
Hey, I am all for saving some money (I use Mrs. Wages too :worried, but for the ease of use, and proven results............the ESV B-ionic really seems like a no-brainer.
If the only concern is a small amount of monetary savings in the DIY vs the ESV, well for my tank........I am willing to spend a few more bucks.

Just my 2c ...........

Herbie

 

[penfold2]

The small amount of money saved using the DIY 2-part doesnt seem cost effective in the grand scheme of things really. I mean, for all the money we spend on our tanks, does saving a small amount of $$$ on a DIY product vs a proven commercial product really seem like its worth it ???

There are tons of extremely successful SPS tanks that have been using DIY 2-part for years, so it is also a proven method. And there is quite a bit of money to be saved on a tank filled with fast growing SPS. If you have modest calcification requirements and feel better about commercial 2-part then use it. It certainly won't hurt. But for many people DIY 2-part is the no-brainer. From the coral's perspective, it makes no difference which you use.