Bio-pellets, Vinegar, Vodka, or ???

[110galreef]

well, i really didn't see any improvement in the few corals i noticed reacting oddly. I inevitably stopped the vinegar maybe 4-6 weeks later. I believe I was starving stuff as PO4 always remained very low (0-6ppb). I can go back and look at my logs.

However over the last 6-8 mos corals have colored up good.

I did just start back dosing 20ml of vinegar just to see how the tank responds again. I will add some extra filter foods as I do this again, like reef chilli, reef roids, and corals freenzy once a week atleast

 

[tmz]

FWIW, I'm approaching year 5 of vodka and vinegar dosing. PO4 is consistently <.03ppm with NO3 consistently around 0.02 or a little less as best as I can read the test.
I discontinued the little gfo I had been using several weeks ago and the dosing is holding PO4 nicely without it.
I dose 26 ml and 64ml of vinegar daily to a 600 galloln tank. I now think the cyano issues are more start up issues related to changes in organics and nitrogen levels than specifically realted to ethanol vs vodka. I have not had any in a very long time.
At one point I was getting some small but annoying amounts stringy bacteria in the tank . It was easily blown off or siphoned . I changed the dosing point for half of the vodka and vinegar to a drain that empties into the bottom of a brute garbage can filled with very live rock( sponges, filter feeders, etc.). The bacteria seem to like it in there and no longer show up very much in other places.

Here is a related thread that may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

 

[Haksar]

Tom- are you able to grow cheatos or macro algae with vodka and vinegar dosage.

 

[tmz]

Yes, Chaeto grows for me but slowly in a bare bottom set up. I also grow some rhodophyta. Dosing a little iron helps along with surface area and light. If PO4 goes too low , under .02/.03ppm the chaeto doesn't do well.

 

[Haksar]

Thanks,but iron is available in the salt so with weekly WC is it required to dose.Afraid iron will have increase algae bloom.

 

[bertoni]

I agree that iron dosing might increase the algal bloom, but it still might be worth trying.

 

[tmz]

It might help nuisance algae but most tanks deplete iron rapidly and are on the low side of nsw levels.. I test foriron periodicaly and dose a little iron magnese( 5ml ofthe Kent product per day for 600 gallons) It perks up the chaeto without any algal bloom in my case.

 

[Buzz1329]

Funny that the title of the thread begins with Bio-pellets, but there's no discussion of it as an alternative to vinegar/vodka. I'm guessing that most posting here have considered bio-pellets but chosen not to use them. Assuming you're not using both, why do you not use bio-pellets?

 

[tmz]

The thread I linked in post #82 goes into my reasons for avoiding the biopellets ,sugar etc. and the reasons I prefer souble organics, ie vodka and vinegar.

This is from it post # 21)

"How to dose organic carbon.
Which organic carbon to use.
Other issues


. This section describes the types of organic carbon being used by aquarists and the techniques ,methods and rationales. It includes facts as well as summary statements of anecdotal experiences posted in the hundreds if not thousands of accounts that I've read over the last five years or so. It also includes my own and personal opinion and preferences. It is intended to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. Thus. it is hoped, enabling the reader to make informed decisions that fit his/her personal preferences .

Organic carbon used:

Type:
Polymers( carbohydrates) these include: bio pellets which are carbohydrate based plastics. There are different types but commercial hobby companies don't tell us what they are using so useful comparisons of pellet types beyond anecdotal accounts are unavailable. .BTW Some folks are using diy polymer plastics

Methods: reactor use, placement in canister filters or good flow areas in sumps are the most prevalent methods.
There are some products that contain tiny beads in liquid that some dose directly to the tank.
Comment and Opinion:
I was excited but skeptical about these when then first hit the market. Mostly because the were claimed to segregate bacterial activity and it's effects to the pellets without braodcasting the activity throughout the tank.
This proved untrue as there are many reports of cyano blooms, coral stress, and bacterial blooms ocurring with them indicative of off pellet activity, ie: monomers are diffusing, bacteria are growing off the pellets and bacterial by products are effecting some systems adversely in terms of cyano growth and coral health. I have not seen a report of long term success with them.There are now a myriad of bio pellet products and equipment to choose from for those who are so inclined.

They are expensive compared to other types.

Equipment is required for most applications adding to the cost and complexity of managing the dosing. In fact a majority of the posts on polymer pellets( aka bio pellets) concern reactor choices flow rates pellet amounts, etc. Disappointingly ,there is little focus on the bacteria culture which is the essence of it all.

It's hard to know or control how much organic carbon you are actually dosing at a given time. Pellets degrade, flow varies , clogs happen, etc.

They are polymers which I personally choose not to dose since a long cascade of bacterial activity some of which may be harmful by different strains occurs in degrading them down to acetate which is a beneficial substance to living things.


Sugar ( fructose, sucrose, glucose).

Polymers are degraded by the first wave of bacterial activity to monomers( sugars) . Sugar dosing has caused coral recession .browning.bleaching and death in a number of accounts and did so in my aquarium . The study noted earlier gives even credence to these anecdotal accounts. I personally have chosen to steer clear of monomers and the polymers that degrade to them. They do seem to work faster to reduce NO3 in the short run than acetic acid or ethanol ,though.

Vodka( ethanol and water):
is a step below monomers in the bacterial cascade known as acetogenesis. It comes from monomers. It does not go back to them but moves on via oxidation to acetic acid vinegar.

Vinegar:
, is acetic acid in water. The acetate is useful to living things. It's degradation is the last step in the cascade likely to occur in a reef tank.

These generic organic( vodka and vinegar ) carbons are:

inexpensive :
$3.50 per gallon plain whit vinegar which is 5% acetic acid
bottom shelf , plain charcoal filtered vodka @ $12.99 for 1.75 liters or 80 proof( ie 40% ethanol)

easy to dose: bolus dosing( ie. pour it into the sump or high flow area), additions to limewater or incrementally dosed via dosing pump;

Add only ethanol and acetic acid without monomers (sugars).

I've had over 3yrs of success in managing PO4 and NO3 and coral health with them.

Vitamin C( ascorbic acid)

is used by some for undefined perceived benefits . It is ,however , a carbon source derived from sugar with similar negative effects reported although the carbon itself may have some short term benefits.

Commercial products and other sources for organic carbon:

There are many forms and mixes. Some folks even advocated plain rice with disastrous results. Commercial mixes don't tell you what's in them. Knowing what I'm putting in the tank is important to me.

Other related issues:

Biodiversity: Some systems trumpet the use of a variety of carbon sources and bacterial supplements to ensure biodiversity in the bacterial populations . First of all, bacteria will be diverse, though some strains will dominate based on the type of food availalbe. For example , those that degrade polymers and monomers will be less in systems relying on ethanol and vinegar. More importantly, though biodiversity sounds good, there is no plausible reason to think it is has been articulated.If you could maintain it which is unlikely given that those using various carbon sources and bacterial supplements must continuously buy and dose the non viable bacteria,; it might easily be a bad thing as with sugars for example.

Supplementing bacteria:
A mostly useless practice and needless expense ,imo. Bacteria are ubiquitous and there are plenty in a reef tank ready and willing to consume organic carbon when it's added. They establish themselves and are viable. Introducing bacterial concoctions may interfere with a very natural and healthy process advisable cultures establish themselves in response to the food( organic carbon) offered.
Bacterial supplements are not useful in my opinion. There are plenty of viable indigenous bacteria in a reef tank that will pick up the task of consuming the organic C when N and P are also adequate.The bacteria in supplements are not viable in a tank. If they were there would be no reason to keep dosing them beyond intiial seeding other than to use more bottles of the concoction.



Complimentary practices:

There is no reason not to use other nutrient management methods with organic carbon dosing.
I run:
Chaeto refugia for some PO4 and NO3 reduction , opposite photo period oxygen and habitat for pods and such;
Cryptic rock filled refugia for surface area , habitat for pods and filter feeders such as sponges ;
A deep sand bed with rock on top.
GFO
GAC and excellent organics remover
Purigen
Skimmers: a must for the the aeration with carbon dosing in particular as well as the bacteria export.


Phosphate and nitrate imbalance:

The bacteria encourage by the organic carbon reduce nitrogen by taking some of it as food along with a proportionate amount of phosphate. However, they also deplete additional NO3 via anaerobic respiration wherein they take the O leaving some of the N to form N2 gas which bubbles out of the tank. This may lead to a situation where some extra low range PO4 is left which can be cleaned up with a little gfo or other remover.

How much to dose:

To iterate: if NO3 and PO4 levels in your aquarium are not an issue and other methods are working in your situation , then no dosing is needed.
The amount needed to maintain acceptable nutrient levels will vary from aquarium to aquarium as will imports, exports and other variables such as bioload, surface area, water change schedules, et alia.
Not all sources are of equal strength in terms of carbon content . The molecular structures are similar enough to generally equate them but if you want more precision checking teh formulas for a carbon source acan tell you precisely how many C atoms each contains. As a practical matter dilution should be accounted for . Thus vinegar which is 95% water is 8x weaker than 80 proof vodka which is 60 % water and 20x weaker than an anhydrous source like sugar or granular vitamin C. So if you are switching from vodka to vinegar for example , 8 mls of vinegar for each ml of vodka being replaced is the calculation. Likewise, 1 gram of sugar would be replaced by 20 ml of vinegar or 8 ml of vodka.

Finding the right dose for your aquarium is a matte of amping up slowly and monitoring NO3 and PO4 along the way.
I recommend reducing NO3 an PO4 before starting and then finding and implementing a maintenance dose.



__________________
Tom


Posts #17 and 19 also deal with some ofthe differnces in bacterial activity and by products.

 

[bertoni]

The bio-pellets often seem to work, but I don't think they're any more useful than vinegar and vodka, and there are a few more issues with them. They might be more expensive over the long haul, too. The reactor requires a stronger pump and a power outage probably is a bigger issue, since the pellets can create an anoxic zone rather rapidly.

 

[Haksar]

Will dosing iodine instead of iron help for cheato growth.

 

[tgirl6868]

Personally, I'd start with vinegar and work from there if I was going to try carbon dosing, but each tank is different. Bio-pellets and vodka have been known to work well, as have a lot of commercial products.

I don't believe "diversity" is a good or achievable thing. It may be the opposite with sugars or polymers for example.
I use vodka because it can be bolus dosed without the precipitous ph drops vinegar can cause .Also ,because I started with it and my tanks are doing well.. I use some vinegar too since it seems to abate cyano bacteria better than vodka.

How do you dose? And how much of either would you use in a 80 gl tank. Ex :vodka- how much and would I shot it strait into the tank or sump. Would you mix it with tank wate first?
Thank you for your replies.

 

[bertoni]

Iodine won't encourage the Chaetomorpha to grow.

This article gives dosing rates for vinegar:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

I think dumping it into the tank once a day is fine when starting out. Larger dosing might require splitting up the dose. At some point, a dosing pump would be convenient, if not exactly necessary.

 

[Tokyoyankee]

Biopellets work well for me but have had issues with them. Ive never vodka or vinegar dosed my tank before so I can't compare. I think a lot of people disregard biopellets partly to their misuse and understanding of the product. I'm able to keep an overstocked tank and feed as much as I want. My sps are happy and vibrant.

 

[tmz]

How do you dose? And how much of either would you use in a 80 gl tank. Ex :vodka- how much and would I shot it strait into the tank or sump. Would you mix it with tank wate first?
Thank you for your replies.

I dose 26ml of vodka and 64 ml of vinegar per day for 600 gallons . Vodka is 60% water and 40% ethanol(carbon source) ;vinegar is 95% water and 5% acetic acid( carbon source) . So the 64 ml of vinegar equals 8 of vodka. The 26ml of vodka equals 224 of vinegar. The mix at 26 ml vodka and 64 vinegar is thus about 76% ethanol and 24% acetic acid.

I dose 18ml of vodka and 64 ml of vinegar at once after the lights come on ;half to a high flow area in the sump and the other half to a drain feeding trash can filled with live rock used as a crytic refugium. Then 8 additional mls of vodka are added just before the lights go out ;half to each loation.

I started at abut 1/4 of those amounts and increased it to it's current level over about 4 weeks when I started.

Vodka can be dosed at once; vinegar needs to be dosed slowly during photosynthetic time periods as it drops ph precipitously . The 64 ml for 600 gallons is small enough that it causes only a small ph drop., so I can get away with dosing it at one time, ie bolus dosing.

The optimal amount for a given qaurium will vary but many folks settle in somewhere between 0.3 and 0.6 ml of vinegar per gallon of water volume ( or an equivalent amount of vodka and/or vodka and vinegar) when the max dose is reached.Since vodka is 8 times stronger than vinegar in terms of organic carbon content those dosing amounts forvinegar need to be divided by 8 to get equivalent vodka mls per gallon.

 

[Pny]

Hi TMZ! Could you clearify this for me?

You write that you dose vinegar during photosynthetic hours to avoid pH drop, but you also write that ethanol breaks down to acetic acid vinegar... And you dose Vodka in the evening. Why doesn't the acetic acid from the vodka also add CO2 and pH drop in the water?

 

[Buzz1329]

The thread I linked in post #82 goes into my reasons for avoiding the biopellets ,sugar etc. and the reasons I prefer souble organics, ie vodka and vinegar.

Ooops. Sorry I missed it, but thanks for repeating it. Your post is definitely going in my archives as the most thorough and clear analysis of carbon dosing I have seen.

Gracias!

 

[tmz]

Hi TMZ! Could you clearify this for me?

You write that you dose vinegar during photosynthetic hours to avoid pH drop, but you also write that ethanol breaks down to acetic acid vinegar... And you dose Vodka in the evening. Why doesn't the acetic acid from the vodka also add CO2 and pH drop in the water?

The ethanol and acetic acid have the same effect on ph over time. I lost about 0.15 ph units when I started dosing and made that up with a CO2 scrubber . I also dose kalk.
The vodka takes time to drop ph so the change is gradual and bolus dosing is ok . The vinegar does it immediately adding CO2 and spikes it down making slow dosing when CO2 is low more important. The bacterial activity for either also depletes some oxygen which is higher during photosyntesis.

 

[tmz]

Ooops. Sorry I missed it, but thanks for repeating it. Your post is definitely going in my archives as the most thorough and clear analysis of carbon dosing I have seen.

Gracias!

You are welcome. Glad you find it helpful.

 

[dg3147]

Would really like some discussion on coloration.

From my experience, even though my NO3 and PhO4 were undetectable, 1mL of vodka in my 75g really brightened my sps coloration. I started it and discontinued it 3 times to confirm the effects. Each time it took about 2-3 weeks to see the change. Note, I also had cyano issues when I started it and could never quite shake it.

I have a new system now, and I am thinking I will use vinegar instead; though, I am unsure if the coloration will be affects the same way. I noticed quite an absence of "show us your vinegar powered sps tanks!" (vs vodka fts's).