Calling all electricians (AFCI Question)

[Sisterlimonpot]

Alright, So I just set up my tank again and it just so happens that the outlets are on a circuit that has an AFCI circuit breaker.

I have read some literature about them and they are vague when it comes to using them in lieu of GFCI.

I understand that the AFCI is meant to prevent fires by detecting shorts, thus tripping the CB and GFCI are mainly to prevent a person from being shocked when they are part of the short circuit path, my question is:

Can I be safe to use just the AFCI or do I need to replace the wall outlet with a GFCI as well?

 

[MSU Fan]

smarter people will chime in, but the advantage a GFCI has is that you can localize what equipment gets shut off when it trips. If you AFCI trips, the whole tank goes down, period.

Also, I think that BeanAnimal has said it before but putting more than one circuit interrupter in series causes interesting things to happen. And not good ones.

 

[uncleof6]

Well, to put it very simple, the best "protected" circuit, has an AFCI breaker, AND a GFCI. There is no reason you cannot use a GFCI down line from an AFCI. They operate differently, and protect against different conditions. The AFCI picks up a line to neutral fault, or other "unatural arcing" that a GFCI does not protect against. The NEC is requiring that ALL outlets in a dwelling be AFCI or GFCI protected, for all practical purposes. The AFCI not being required in laundry rooms, kitchens, bathrooms, garages and unfinished basements--where GFCI protection is required. They also make "combinaiton devices" that are both AFCI and GFCI, for use in wall outlets that are not otherwise protected. The NEC applies to new construction only, however, when replacing devices, it applies in any dwelling. (I would have trouble finding a reference for that however.)

As always, the NEC does not apply to plug connected appliances like an aquarium, however from what I read, hear, and see, with aquarium electrical, it is quite frankly-- scary.

The days, of the "no single device can shut the whole tank down," are numbered. An auto start generator comes to mind, but if the ARC fault was in a pump motor, you don't want that motor running.

Jim

 

[Jeff000]

Well, to put it very simple, the best "protected" circuit, has an AFCI breaker, AND a GFCI. There is no reason you cannot use a GFCI down line from an AFCI. They operate differently, and protect against different conditions. The AFCI picks up a line to neutral fault, or other "unatural arcing" that a GFCI does not protect against. The NEC is requiring that ALL outlets in a dwelling be AFCI or GFCI protected, for all practical purposes. The AFCI not being required in laundry rooms, kitchens, bathrooms, garages and unfinished basements--where GFCI protection is required. They also make "combinaiton devices" that are both AFCI and GFCI, for use in wall outlets that are not otherwise protected. The NEC applies to new construction only, however, when replacing devices, it applies in any dwelling. (I would have trouble finding a reference for that however.)

As always, the NEC does not apply to plug connected appliances like an aquarium, however from what I read, hear, and see, with aquarium electrical, it is quite frankly-- scary.

The days, of the "no single device can shut the whole tank down," are numbered. An auto start generator comes to mind, but if the ARC fault was in a pump motor, you don't want that motor running.

Jim

Ok, to clarify, the AFCI and the GFCI are different, they detect different faults and can but used down line from one another. Its when you have a GFCI connected to the load side of a GFCI that funny things can happen.

As to what I bolded. FALSE!
NEC requires bedrooms to be AFCI, and the only places that need a GFCI are when it's within 6' of a water source and all kitchen plugs.

Many things in a house do not need AFCI or GFCI protection.

<---- Electrician, I do have a copy of the NEC. As well as the CEC. In Canada kitchen plugs only need GFCI if its within a meter of a water source.

 

[sfsuphysics]

You sure about that? AFCIs changed BIG time between NEC05 & NEC08. 210.12 is an expensive change.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the AFCI rules, great way to make cost of materials go up by a factor of 10 or so.. regular circuit breaker costs maybe $3 (depending upon brand of course), AFCI $30+ If these are the norm, you'd think they'd come down in price a bit simply due to quantity that are needed.

 

[Jeff000]

You sure about that? AFCIs changed BIG time between NEC05 & NEC08. 210.12 is an expensive change.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the AFCI rules, great way to make cost of materials go up by a factor of 10 or so.. regular circuit breaker costs maybe $3 (depending upon brand of course), AFCI $30+ If these are the norm, you'd think they'd come down in price a bit simply due to quantity that are needed.

Damn, looks like I opened the 05 version of the NEC.

08
"(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and
20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in
dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be
protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter,
combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit."

That sucks. lol. Are many ares enforcing 08 yet? I know a bunch of guys that are still 05. CEC is still just AFCI in bedrooms.
You will still have normal outlets in utility rooms and things like that. And lighting circuits.

A normal breaker here is like 8-10 bucks, and a AFCI is like 50, and a GFCI breaker is like 80+.

I should stick to commercial, lol.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Notice how many states have adopted the 2008 NEC as it is printed, only WA and GA have ammended it to still be bedroom only!

 

[NanoReefWanabe]

i just paid 79.99+taxes (retail) for my AFCI....bedrooms only up here thank goodness..

 

[uncleof6]

Ok, to clarify, the AFCI and the GFCI are different, they detect different faults and can but used down line from one another. Its when you have a GFCI connected to the load side of a GFCI that funny things can happen.

As to what I bolded. FALSE!
NEC requires bedrooms to be AFCI, and the only places that need a GFCI are when it's within 6' of a water source and all kitchen plugs.

Many things in a house do not need AFCI or GFCI protection.

<---- Electrician, I do have a copy of the NEC. As well as the CEC. In Canada kitchen plugs only need GFCI if its within a meter of a water source.

Unfinished basement receptacles require GFCI protection, NEC 2008. Finished basement receptacles, obviously, will require AFCI protection. (It becomes a living area, or "rec room," interpretive perahps, but don't bet it is not required)

I believe it was the 1978 NEC that first required garage receptacles to be GFCI protected, unless not readily accessible, or on a dedicated branch circuit located and designated for a cord and plug connected applicance. At that time, usually there was only one....... and that one was required to be GFCI protected. In the 2008 NEC, all must be GFCI protected regardless.

With the kitchen, I fall into the commercial/residential trap also, commmercial = all, residential = counter top, and other defined locations. ("practical purposes" is a broad statement but it works)

Bathroom = all recepticles must be GFCI protected. Can't tell ya which flavor of code started that.

Laundry = if there is a sink, odds are they will all be within 6 foot of the sink = GFCI required. If no sink, neither AFCI or GFCI is required.

Outdoors = All must be GFCI protected, there is an exception in there, but don't recall it offhand.

For all practical purposes, well-- there ain't much that is not required to have one or the other.

I expect these exceptions to go away, before too long.

Jim

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

So you're saying that before long that all new houses will require either to be GFCI or AFCI protected?

Like stated before, as long as the prices go down with the demand, I would definitely replace all CB in my panel to accommodate, just for the peace of mind.

 

[uncleof6]

As soon as NFPA can come up with a good enough excuse, yeah the exceptions will slowly disappear. Lobbying by the manufacturers of various devices required by code now, has played largely in the mix.

Jim

 

[BeanAnimal]

Don't expect the prices to come down anytime soon. The OEMs have found a way to greatly increase profits with the new code. Not only are the breakers 10x more expensive, they don't (and are not planned to) come in half space footrpints. That means that MANY new average size panel installs will require (2) panels instead of a single panel!!!! Double the switch gear, double 10x the cost! Contractors get to charge more in labor and materials and the OEMs found profit in a residential market that was not really that profitable.

 

[Jeff000]

Don't expect the prices to come down anytime soon. The OEMs have found a way to greatly increase profits with the new code. Not only are the breakers 10x more expensive, they don't (and are not planned to) come in half space footrpints. That means that MANY new average size panel installs will require (2) panels instead of a single panel!!!! Double the switch gear, double 10x the cost! Contractors get to charge more in labor and materials and the OEMs found profit in a residential market that was not really that profitable.

Square D has a slim AFCI breaker here, can get it at home depot.
I like my bolt in breakers still, but thats the commercial spark in me (all I do), lol.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ahh I never noticed that before... ( I don't have a SquareD homeline and threfore don't pay much attention). GE (from what I understand) does not have any plans for a 1/2" AFCI or combo AFCI.