SaraB
Coral Killer
Of course I did since I share a passion of cars with Peter! The car was pure luxury being a Bentley
Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
- Thread starter nineball
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Of course I did since I share a passion of cars with Peter! The car was pure luxury being a Bentley
Robb in Austin
New member
Nice!
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I've been on vacation in the Canadian Rockies so I have a lot to catch up on :spin1:
The first step is to establish if it is a parasite, lighting, or water quality problem. A dip in Two Little Fishies ReVive, or Lugol's iodine will help with parasites, along with close inspection with a magnifying glass for larger parasites. We have a Nanoscope that we really find useful for close inspection. I just wish we could take photos with it. Of course there are a lot of other threats like virus and bacterial infection that you can't see, but antibiotic treatment can do more harm than good with shotgun methods and temporary holding tanks. If it has STN (slow tissue necrosis) at the base, look closely for parasites. If it has damage at the tips, it is likely stinging from the sleeper tentacles of a neighbour or physical damage from falling over repeatedly. We glue most corals down to avoid these kinds of injuries. Be extremely careful that you aren't introducing pathogens to your healthy corals with your coral rescue project. We have "Mars 3" as a coral QT system, as we have a lot at risk in the main display.
The chances are the coral had too much light, poor water chemistry and high temperatures. These parameters are easier for you to fix. Start the coral off in low light near the bottom of the tank, then move it up as the colour returns. If the coral is bleached, keep it in lower lighting for an extended period of time.
The key to good water quality and chemistry is consistency. Most fluctuation disasters occur with over zealous dosing. This only starts a roller coaster of band aid chemical additions. Use the reef chemistry calculator to make sure you are balancing all of the elements against each other.
Mobile version: http://reef.diesyst.com/cf/chemcalccf.html
Full version: http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html
Another method of fostering a quick recovery is target feeding. Some corals feed at night so you may need to feed fine corals foods on a timer or sneak out of bed without waking your wife
Tanks rich in organic matter feed corals generously, but inorganic nutrients retard coral growth and can cause tissue necrosis if they get too high. Heavy metal poisoning is also a concern with "dirty/rich" tanks (filthy rich = good, dirty rich = bad) Again, the art lies in the balance. We use 0-50µ powdered foods for SPS, and 100-150µ powdered foods for LPS. Be careful in how much you feed, because these foods are traditionally high in Phosphate (Po4).
Part of the health management game is knowing when to give up. By all means, a coral can come back from extreme die back and bleaching, but be careful that you aren't letting a contaminated coral slowly pollute the water quality of your display tank and spread disease to healthy inhabitants.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
We are still reviewing the design before we move on to a working model. The standpipe height is higher than the overflow wall to the next chamber. The agitation of the air lift will sporadically splash water over the taller standpipe for passive feeding. This rate can be varied by increasing bubble size and air volume introduced, as well as pushing the (pressure fit) standpipe deeper into the bottom bulkhead or raising it. The water throughput will also have an influence on it. We can adjust a dosing pump drip rate or add a surge system with a larger pump on a timer.
Our newest plan is to use an Eheim feeder filled with powdered coral food that will drop food into the last compartment of our sump. Manual tests have proven that all the food makes it into the display with even distribution. This will get us away from the current feast or famine feeding regime. It will also allow us to feed at night when poly extension is better in many corals, and offer better food dosing quantity control.
The goal is to create a fish and coral feeding system to give Peter more time to enjoy the tank from the safety of his chair. Now that we have added a collection of big tangs, the feeding frenzy is significant. The best way to assure that the slow guys get fed is to add a lot at one time and mix small (cyclops), medium (brine shrimp), and large (mysis shrimp). I don't like the fact that the fish associate certain areas of the tank as feeding stations, as it creates a "begging for food" response. I think we can feed fresh (previously frozen) foods via the same delivery service through the return pump.
Any kind of venturi or actuator valve can fail, and if the feeding vessel runs out of water it can introduce air into the display. The safest system we can think of is a refrigerated hopper that leads directly to the sump return intake like a slurry. We need it to dose food and mix water in small amounts to protect the pump and outlets from clogging. The surprise feedings will be in small increments spread out throughout the day. This is how fish feed in nature, particularly fish with a fast metabolism like anthias. We will thaw food every few days and reload a refrigerated holding vessel of some sort.
There are kinds of details to work out, so we are looking at it on and off when the subject comes up... well here we are again
It has to be...1) Compact.
2) Quiet.
3) Reef safe (non-metallic contact areas).
4) Cost effective.
5) Easy to keep clean.
6) Fails safe in case of over feeding jams.
7) Free of bacteria blooms.
8) Reliable.
9) Energy efficient.
10) Easy to fill and set dosing rate.
Any ideas from you geniuses out there???
D5HP
New member
We are still reviewing the design before we move on to a working model. The standpipe height is higher than the overflow wall to the next chamber. The agitation of the air lift will sporadically splash water over the taller standpipe for passive feeding. This rate can be varied by increasing bubble size and air volume introduced, as well as pushing the (pressure fit) standpipe deeper into the bottom bulkhead or raising it. The water throughput will also have an influence on it. We can adjust a dosing pump drip rate or add a surge system with a larger pump on a timer.
Our newest plan is to use an Eheim feeder filled with powdered coral food that will drop food into the last compartment of our sump. Manual tests have proven that all the food makes it into the display with even distribution. This will get us away from the current feast or famine feeding regime. It will also allow us to feed at night when poly extension is better in many corals, and offer better food dosing quantity control.
The goal is to create a fish and coral feeding system to give Peter more time to enjoy the tank from the safety of his chair. Now that we have added a collection of big tangs, the feeding frenzy is significant. The best way to assure that the slow guys get fed is to add a lot at one time and mix small (cyclops), medium (brine shrimp), and large (mysis shrimp). I don't like the fact that the fish associate certain areas of the tank as feeding stations, as it creates a "begging for food" response. I think we can feed fresh (previously frozen) foods via the same delivery service through the return pump.
Any kind of venturi or actuator valve can fail, and if the feeding vessel runs out of water it can introduce air into the display. The safest system we can think of is a refrigerated hopper that leads directly to the sump return intake like a slurry. We need it to dose food and mix water in small amounts to protect the pump and outlets from clogging. The surprise feedings will be in small increments spread out throughout the day. This is how fish feed in nature, particularly fish with a fast metabolism like anthias. We will thaw food every few days and reload a refrigerated holding vessel of some sort.
There are kinds of details to work out, so we are looking at it on and off when the subject comes up... well here we are again
1) Compact.
2) Quiet.
3) Reef safe (non-metallic contact areas).
4) Cost effective.
5) Easy to keep clean.
6) Fails safe in case of over feeding jams.
7) Free of bacteria blooms.
8) Reliable.
9) Energy efficient.
10) Easy to fill and set dosing rate.
Any ideas from you geniuses out there???
This is a great project but it's a pretty 'custom' application.
Questions:
1) Compact -- Is a mini-fridge considered compact? The main pump could sit on top.
2) Use small eheims for the main pumps
3) Nalgene bottle for the holding containers. Big ones.
4) $$$$? What's effective?
5) More than one of ^....swap them out and just wash them.
6) When most pumps jam or stop....there is a notable spike in current. You'll need custom control of this thing anyways so why not stick a hall effect sensor on your pumps power line?
7) I'm an engineer...not a biologist! Keep it dark...I would imagine that would help tremendously.
8) Pay someone who has done it before
9) Eheim
10) Good controller (custom) with easy to read screen)
Use identical nalgene bottles with all the same fittings. Unplug the two hoses...replace.
So what I see is three pumps and two containers inside the fridge.
One is full of your "slush" food.
One is a 'mixing' reservoir.
Controller pumps (pump 1) food into the larger reservoir container. (this is the area that needs to be looked into the most)
Pump 2 pulls water from sump into reservoir, which mixes the whole mess.
Pump 3 empties the reservoir (float switch).
Pump 2 pulls water into reservoir, there is still going to be a little food in there.
Pump 3 empties the reservoir (float switch). Do the 2 then 3 sequence probably 4 or 5 more times to keep the reservoir from getting too gross.
Maybe even keep a pump in the reservoir with all but two 'prop blades' cut off so it just sort of slaps around the water and doesn't puree the food.
Just an idea.
The controller would only take about a few hours to code and test for someone familiar with it and a little keypad could be used to change times fed as well as duration.
I think you could do it for $400 in hardware total. That's a generous estimate.
The big issue is moving the food out of the container without having to build a custom peristaltic pump since most foods would get clogged up in simple airline tubing.
dave.m
Active member
I haven't used one, but it doesn't seem too difficult to adapt to a phone camera as demonstrated here.Mr.Wilson said:
Dave.M
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
A mini bar fridge or wine cooler is an option, but I was thinking of something silent and compact like a Peltier cooler. We are only cooling a small area, and we can use the hot side of the Peltier to melt the frozen food or "slushy".
Eheim makes a solid pump. Adding a pump on a timer is cheaper that adding an actuator valve or other fancy gizmo. Less is more in most cases.
Just make sure they are the new BPA-free ones.
If it works, the budget is very generous, but Peter isn't the kind of guy who starts writing cheques for R&D and wild ideas. If we can put together a sound design and make it for $500 it will easily pay itself off in Peter's time, as he is the designated fish feeder. I am hoping the device can be cleaned and filled once a week by me, and that's it.
Agreed, a cartridge system using (recyclable) disposable water bottles would cut the labour down significantly. A freshwater wash-down system would keep the moving parts clean.
This is the beauty of the Abyzz DC pumps, they have water level, RPM and temperature sensors, alarms and on/off control. They will sound an alarm, shut down the pump, and turn it back on when the problem is resolved. The pump is on a surge cycle every two minutes from 65% (standing) to 90% (surge) for 10 seconds. This will help move trapped food, but dilution is the key.
Just because you are en engineer, doesn't mean you can't be a brick layer, a moon shuttle conductor, an escalator for that matter. I asked for contributions from geniuses, but expect solutions from the SubGenius. I treat feeding systems like my wife, keep them in the dark
This isn't a back door R&D project. I would love nothing more than to buy an off the rack feeder and call it a day, but I haven't found one yet. It may very well be out there, but I haven't found it yet.
Their feeder is energy efficient, but their water pumps not so much.
We have the option of mixing all the fresh (previously frozen) foods together in one container. This is much more simple than multiple feeding bottles with valves and mixers etc. I'm not concerned if the foods classify and come out in non-homogenous portions. The fewer hoses and moving parts connected to the bottle the better, as these will need cleaning. If the bottles have a simple release mechanism like a solenoid or automated gate at the bottom, it limits the sticky parts. I can pre-rinse the frozen food to remove phosphates or we can try, a perhaps over ambitious, system whereby a cube is pushed out of a blister pack and dropped into a small holding tank filled with water. the tank would be filled and drained repeatedly until the "juice" is removed. This step will thaw the food and dilute it to a safe consistency for travelling down a slurry pipeline and through a return pump.
The idea here is to dose frequent small portions. A single blister pack can be kept frozen with a dead silent Peltier cooler. The hot side can be used to help melt the cube, kill bacteria or to create energy to drive the device itself (using the difference in temperature between the two sides). A single cube doesn't need much area to rinse and dilute. Multipacks can be used for variety or a mixed food like Rod's or Roger's can be utilized. This kind of unit could be used for any size tank, even a nano. Peter's feeder would just need to be refilled daily rather than weekly/monthly. We only need to freeze or cool the area of a blister pack (small thermal mass) so the Peltier cooler doesn't have to be big.
I would like to look at some livestock feeding systems to get more ideas. I saw some high volume chicken farm/factory models at the Calgary Stampede last week, so Peter really should reimburse me for the trip
All great ideas, now lets see it with just one pump and no controller
Let's see if Peter can put his money where his fish's mouth is. Maybe he can offer an engineering award to the person who can make this idea work. If anyone out there is good with microswitches, PWM, Arduino etc. please PM me.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Nice find Dave, but you know how Peter is with his cameras and discerning taste for video quality
He went into the local specialty photography store with our nano scope that looks like it came out of a Cracker jack box, and they can't supply a lens that will deliver the same effect. They sold him some nano extensions but they aren't even in the ballpark. I would love to be able to export video from such a device and watch live on a larger LCD screen and save it for editing. Time laps video and watching the daily cycle of a coral polyp would be worth a hefty price tag. It would make evaluation of flow, lighting and foods much, much easier. We could establish a difference between feeding response and feeding. Right now we can't tell if the corals are wasting resources with extended polyps or if they are actually collecting copious amounts of food, or regurgitating food for that matter.
Ron Shimek showed a nice HD macro video of a gorgonian actively feeding. He was able to ascertain from the video ideal flow and food size. Again, I call on all nerds, experts, hobbyists, and technophiles for guidance in finding such equipment... and yes Dave, until then my Iphone will remain duct taped to the nanoscope
dave.m
Active member
Birders call it "digiscoping": you get your umpteen million dollar camera mounted on your megabucks triod, you get a $0.75 plumbing fitting that will mount on the camera's lens on one end and hold the Nanoscope on the other. Never tell Peter how little it cost. Just present him with a bill for your services.
Or have I already said too much?
Dave.M
Or have I already said too much?
Dave.M
nineball
Active member
Birders call it "digiscoping": you get your umpteen million dollar camera mounted on your megabucks triod, you get a $0.75 plumbing fitting that will mount on the camera's lens on one end and hold the Nanoscope on the other. Never tell Peter how little it cost. Just present him with a bill for your services.
Or have I already said too much?
Dave.M
Its ok Dave, as long as there are no pictures or hand drawings......I'll never get it! ! !
Peter
nineball
Active member
Clearly it is a beautiful fish but I am happy for the moment with the balance I have achieved with the current population. The Sohal is the peacemaker and so far he is not aggressive or in any way threatening to anyone or anything else. My fear is that the harmony might be jeopardized by introducing another foot long fish. Then again.......raise this issue in another year and I just might go WOW EXCELLENT SUGGESTION!!!
Peter
Rybren
Well-known member
Here's a link to a description of Randy Holmes-Farley's live Arcti-Pods feeder.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18673733&postcount=33
It may provide some food for thought as you continue to investigate possibilities.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18673733&postcount=33
It may provide some food for thought as you continue to investigate possibilities.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Birders call it "digiscoping": you get your umpteen million dollar camera mounted on your megabucks triod, you get a $0.75 plumbing fitting that will mount on the camera's lens on one end and hold the Nanoscope on the other. Never tell Peter how little it cost. Just present him with a bill for your services.
Or have I already said too much?
Dave.M
I didn't realize bird fanciers were doing this already, makes sense.
dave.m
Active member
I was in a blind at a conservation area. The guy beside me set up a 20X $2500 spotter scope on a really fine $600 four-legged mount, stuck a little plastic fitting on the eyepiece he had made out of a 75¢ plumbing part as an adapter and mounted a $20 throw-away digital camera on it. The pictures he was getting were stunning to say the least.
I'm sure that a man of your esteemed talents (not being at all facetious here) could do something similar with the Nanoscope.
Dave.M
I'm sure that a man of your esteemed talents (not being at all facetious here) could do something similar with the Nanoscope.
Dave.M
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Is there a better quality birder scope out there that performs better than our nanoscope? Furthermore, can I use it to see the nude beach on Centre Island from my 22nd floor apartment? I can't even distinguish sex with my field glasses
nineball
Active member
Is there a better quality birder scope out there that performs better than our nanoscope? Furthermore, can I use it to see the nude beach on Centre Island from my 22nd floor apartment? I can't even distinguish sex with my field glasses
You are looking through the wrong end then. My problem is I probably wouldn't recognize it if it was going on in the same room.........
Life is entirely too short.......
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Opcn
Member
Amazon sells thermoelectric wine chillers that amount to basically a minibar fridge.
Bacterial blooms are going to happen if the food slush spends a significant amount of time at a significant temperature. I think that the answer is to run the feed line out of refrigeration and immediately meet it with a "T" that carries a loop of tank water past. If the loop runs constantly it will be dumping tank water heat into your cooler but if you squeeze out a bolus of food and then run the loop for 2 minutes then shut it off you can avoid that problem and be sure that you sweep most of the food in warm places out. Also the more feedings per day you do (and by extension the less time between feedings) the less time that food is going to spend hanging out in a warm tube.
Bacterial blooms are going to happen if the food slush spends a significant amount of time at a significant temperature. I think that the answer is to run the feed line out of refrigeration and immediately meet it with a "T" that carries a loop of tank water past. If the loop runs constantly it will be dumping tank water heat into your cooler but if you squeeze out a bolus of food and then run the loop for 2 minutes then shut it off you can avoid that problem and be sure that you sweep most of the food in warm places out. Also the more feedings per day you do (and by extension the less time between feedings) the less time that food is going to spend hanging out in a warm tube.
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