Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[Happyschneider]

I really would appreciate your input on the following scenario.

I bought two Cryptocentrus cinctus together with an Alpheus bellulus (all lived in the same tank, system connected to all the other tanks also with wild caught fish). LFS had the fish for 14 days but I prefer to do the TTM anyway.

Transferred the fish into my TTM A (1st tank for TTM) on Sat, Nov 14 17:00
Transferred them into TTM B (2nd tank for TTM) on Tue, Nov 17, 10:00

I went away for a business trip and came back yesterday evening where I found that TTM A was still wet in places and decided that I could not use it to transfer them back into this set up (learning: have 3 versions of everything to guarantee good drying).

So I decided to move the fish into the QT system for the moment. The QT system has never seen any fish so in theory I could continue with the process as if I had a 3rd TTM tank. The problem is the following:

On Saturday, when I put the fish into TTM A, I put the pistol shrimp into the QT system just to get ridd of any spores before adding it to the DT. I reconned that approximately 2 weeks would be enough for it. However, as I added the fish to the QT now, the shrimp is again a potential carrier of the spores. Not too bad I think. However, I recon that the fish have come into contact with the shrimp and therefore I would need to restart the TTM process, correct?

2nd question, how long would you leave the shrimp in QT now after fish have been in there with him?

Thank you so much, all your input and thoughts will be highly appreciated!

 

[MatnNatsReef]

How important is it to make the transfers in the morning after the total darkness period versus making the transfers at 11:00pm?

 

[snorvich]

How important is it to make the transfers in the morning after the total darkness period versus making the transfers at 11:00pm?

The critical issue is less than 72 hours and a total of 12 days.

 

[skp]

IME this is the most overblown fear about TTM. I have TTM'ed more times than I care to count and in every situation the new fish were personable within a couple days (before the first tank change even) and eating immediately. I have never lost a fish to TTM, while I have lost fish to other QT methods and to disease back when I did not QT.

Fish are much more resilient than we give them credit for. As Steve said, the real stress comes from not treating them.

I was waiting on an Achilles tang at the lfs. It came in with no signs of ich but went directly into a tank with copper and other fish that might have ich. It was dark and very active and looked healthy. Three days later it had a few spots near it's tail. I asked them to net it to have a closer look and the worker took a huge net and kind of ushered it towards the water surface. The fish didn't make any solid contact with the net, kind of kept in place hovering in the water at an angle not quite on it's side. After the net was removed, the Achilles went into shock and laid on it's side on the gravel. It remained that way for two days and then died.

I was planning to do a tank transfer for 12 days before putting it into quarantine but after seeing that I am a little hesitant. Does the above post also apply to Achilles tangs? Or was that one at the lfs just a weak candidate? Is there any good way for me to tell if the fish is going to survive ttm before I pay $250 for it?

thanks

 

[ThRoewer]

That tang likely had another issue, especially since he wasn't actually in the net.
Also, avoid using a net when catching a fish. A glass or plastic pitcher is better. Specimen container work well too. Or if you have, use a trap.
Nets always cause skin or fin abrasions that can be starting points for infections (most commonly Lymphocystis or bacterial). And nets are also more stressful to fish.

 

[snorvich]

That tang likely had another issue, especially since he wasn't actually in the net.
Also, avoid using a net when catching a fish. A glass or plastic pitcher is better. Specimen container work well too. Or if you have, use a trap.
Nets always cause skin or fin abrasions that can be starting points for infections (most commonly Lymphocystis or bacterial). And nets are also more stressful to fish.

I agree. Nets should never be used on fish.

 

[ThRoewer]

I agree. Nets should never be used on fish.

Well, sometimes using a net is the last resort or actually the best available option. What comes to mind is catching a clownfish out of a fully decorated tank. Also small fish do in general better with nets than large fish.

Though I wish I could find a Fangglocke here in the US - that's really the best instrument to catch a fish:

Unfortunately, even in Germany they have largely fallen out of use

 

[kenpau]

Well..woke up to check on my purple tang..dead. What did i do wrong? Followed directions perfect.

I had this exact same situation when I first attempted TTM, I lost about 8 fish overnight. When I asked a very experienced reefkeeper in my local club he just replied 'So you stressed out already sick fish by catching them and moving them to an unknown environment...' it was food for thought.

 

[snorvich]

I had this exact same situation when I first attempted TTM, I lost about 8 fish overnight. When I asked a very experienced reefkeeper in my local club he just replied 'So you stressed out already sick fish by catching them and moving them to an unknown environment...' it was food for thought.

Or you did not have cryptocaryon irritans which is much more likely.

 

[ThRoewer]

Or you did not have cryptocaryon irritans which is much more likely.

This ^^ or your fish were already too far along and too sick.

TTM is the method of choice for lightly infected fish or as prophylaxis.
Fish that have already a heavy infection may not be able to handle anything but hyposalinity and even that may not be enough to save them.

Burges (1992) observed that fish infected with a lethal level of Cryptocaryon usually die when the parasites leave the fish or within the following 24 hours. The immediate deaths are likely due to the damage the parasites do when breaking the skin. The delayed deaths are more likely due to the damage and secondary bacterial infections.

Hyposalinity reduces the stress level and energy consumption of the fish, thus giving them a better chance of survival. At the same time it would be advised to add an antibacterial agent to prevent or fight secondary infections.
If the fish survived the 24 hours after the exit of the main wave I would continue with TTM under hyposaline condition to absolutely prevent reinfection.

Fish with a light infection should be able to handle TTM without problems.

If you are not sure what your fish have I would add at a minimum one formalin bath to the begin of TTM, but better would be to do a bath on every transfer.

 

[snorvich]

What he said. Ironically (since many vendors ship at) 1.017 SG or there about is ideal SG for tank transfer or quarantine.

 

[kenpau]

Or you did not have cryptocaryon irritans which is much more likely.

I should have taken pictures. I've seen ich enough times in my ten years reef keeping to know what it looks like.
Incidentally I do believe that TTM is an excellent method of initially treating new fish in quarantine, however once a fish is sick in a display tank you are taking your chances somewhat in catching and stressing a fish to remove it, as the poster found after losing an expensive Purple Tang.

 

[lespaul339]

Ok so I'm currently trying this after a failed attempt at hypo, and a failed attempt at using copper. I was even religious on testing my copper levels daily and still had a hard time keeping levels constant. After losing half my fish, I'm really hoping this works. I've been battling ich since June, and haven't had fish in my display since July 1st.

I went out and bought two 18 gallon totes. Two 50 watt heaters, enough air stones and air tubing to use new each time, some pvc fittings for fish to hide in. And I filled a 5 gallon bucket with a heavy vinegar/water mix to soak all equipment in after each transfer. I plan on air drying all equipment for 24 hours before each use.

My question is, since my tank has been fallow since July 1st, should I go ahead and just add my fish after the 12 days of TTM, or should I still set up my quarantine tank to monitor them for a little while after I do this? From what I've read, if you do this correctly it for sure kills ich.

 

[Spar]

Especially since you are trying TTM out for the first time, I think you are better off housing them somewhere else for a couple weeks after to monitor to make sure no ich shows back up. Would be a major pain to find out ttm failed when back in your fallow treated DT already.

With new fish the additional time period in QT is mainly to ensure nothing worse is on the fish, but you would already know if that was the case with your current fish.

 

[lespaul339]

Especially since you are trying TTM out for the first time, I think you are better off housing them somewhere else for a couple weeks after to monitor to make sure no ich shows back up. Would be a major pain to find out ttm failed when back in your fallow treated DT already.

Good point. I might as well monitor them for a couple weeks longer. After this long whats a couple more weeks? So far so good. I put them in Monday night at 8 p.m. and will be transferring them Thursday morning at 6 a.m. They seem to be doing good, but didn't eat the first day from being stressed out. I expected that though.

 

[Happyschneider]

Hi all,

just had one of my fish in TTM die on me. Sad part is, that the TTM was almost over. The fish did not have any visible white spots and I am not sure why it died. The second one looks very much alive and happy. I decided to do two extra TTM and then keep it in observation for some time before adding it to the DT. Any other recommendations on what to do? Any input highly appreciated.

 

[skp]

Suddenly scratching 5 days into ttm

Suddenly scratching 5 days into ttm

Hi,

I picked up a tang on Friday and began the ttm process. It had one spot on it when I brought it home. It has not shown any other signs since. This is day two after the first transfer. It finally started to take nori and it made a mess so today I did a water change and less than an hour later it started scratching it's left gill on the bottom. What does this mean?

Could I have prematurely burst a cyst (tomont) by scraping the bottom trying to pickup all the bits of nori? Or could it be that the ich was inside the fish and coincidentally it started to come out today bothering it enough to start scratching?

Does it seem like a new infection? I'm wondering if I need to start over from day 1.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Neurovet]

Thanks for this wonderful thread. Are clear rubbermaid 20gal containers acceptable for TTM?
When you mention decontaminate the PVC hiding areas, does this just mean dry for three days or is there more?
Sorry if this question was already asked and I missed it on the thread

 

[snorvich]

Thanks for this wonderful thread. Are clear rubbermaid 20gal containers acceptable for TTM?
When you mention decontaminate the PVC hiding areas, does this just mean dry for three days or is there more?
Sorry if this question was already asked and I missed it on the thread

Clear containers are preferred. 20 gallons are fine; for one fish simply lower the water level a bit. I always rinse in slightly bleached water, rinse again in clean water, then be sure they are dry. For non-expensive items I simply throw away and replace.

 

[EnderTurtle]

Snorvich, I just wanted to personally thank you for making this thread and helping us learn this method.

I've been using tank transfer method for ridding ich for all new comer fish for the past 1.5 years.

It works great. I've bought ich-covered blue tangs and rid them of ich in 14 days.

My Lessons Learned/Tips
-First off I take tank transfers seriously, if you're cross-contaminating equipment, then you're waisting your time. Think about ich as little cysts growing on the equipment as they fall off the fish. You dont want that re-entering your transfer tank. Wash it off and let it dry.
-I use 5 gallon buckets as the container because it's easy to clean. (most of my bought fish are not bigger than 3 inches)
-I add PVC pieces into the bucket to provide hiding spots for the fish. Also easy to clean.
-I use airline tubing and a bubbler to aerate the water. (I DO NOT use air stones because its too porous and ich can survive inside the pours of the stone)
-I stick the airline tubing into a drilled PVC piece to weigh down the tube(otherwise it springs out of the water)
-I throw away used airline tubing. (I only use about 8 inches worth, rather not deal with cleaning it since it's so cheap)
-I wash and dry ALL equipment used for 24 hours.
-I use a deli container or plastic cup to catch and transfer fish.
-I make sure to transfer only the fish and no water from the old tank to the transfer tank.
-I do not use nets to catch fish since ich might survive on the net