Cryptocaryon Irritans - tank transfer method

[tmz]

Hi all,

This has been an amazing thread and I have ready all 44 pages of it in its entirety. I had an ich outbreak in my DT (didn't quarantine new fish like an idiot) and treated the entire 180 gallon tank with Rid-ich Plus for a couple of weeks. I then moved the fish to a quarantine tank and treated with Cupramine for 2 weeks. They moved back into the DT in November. What are the chances there is still ich in my DT? I currently have 5 new fish going through the TT method and quarantine but after reading through everything in this thread I'm really second guessing if my DT is "clean". I have learned SOOO much over the past month and am really trying to do things right now. Should I pull all of my fish out of the DT, do TT with them, and leave the tank fallow for 72 days, or is over a 5 months with zero signs of ich any form of security? I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this question... I hate to put my Foxface back into the hospital tank agian, he really really hated it last time around and bashed himself around enough he got popeye (which he has now recovered from).

The rid ich by Kordan contains 4.26% formalin which is effective against ich in the free swimming phase but I wouldn't consider it reef safe.

The tank likely may still have viable encysted parasites which will likely attack new fish. It needs to be fishless for 72 days. Any fish in there will prolong the ich infestation indefinitely. I'd set up a cycled holding tank or two for the infested fish after TTM treatment or two with some structure like pvc pipe cuttings for resting places.

Some may die since many don't survive an initial infestation.

 

[jbvdhp]

Quick question for the DZ experts. Hypothetical question. Seeing how some LFS keep their fish in Cu, if the Cu suppresses the symptoms of ich and they appear a month later, if one does TTM today lets say, does that mean after TTM then ich can appear then?


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[snorvich]

Quick question for the DZ experts. Hypothetical question. Seeing how some LFS keep their fish in Cu, if the Cu suppresses the symptoms of ich and they appear a month later, if one does TTM today lets say, does that mean after TTM then ich can appear then?


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No. But the formalin dip precedes TTM.

 

[tmz]

Copper treatment at the proper dose and for the recommended time( 2 weeks IIRC) kills the parasite in the free swimming phase and does eradicate the parasite almost all of the time. So, the answer to your question depends on how the lfs uses copper. Low doses may just slow things down and may give the parasite an opportunity to develop strains with some resistance to the copper. I doubt this would cause the parasite to linger in the fish and remerge later . I don't know of any data to support that notion. In any case TT treatment followed by a qt observation period should cover it.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

My understanding would be that running low levels of copper could suppress the symptoms, but ich is still going to follow its standard life cycle so the TTM should still work as intended.


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[friartuuk]

I've had problems quarantining flasher wrasses and Chloroquine phosphate so I'm using the tank transfer method. I did the second transfer yesterday and he's doing well. He would be due for the third transfer early Sunday morning. I have to go out of town on Sunday afternoon for five days. I'm wondering if it would be best to transfer him a third time on Sunday morning and hope that he's all clear, wait until I get back and start over again, do the third transfer and go through the whole process again when I get back.

 

[Deinonych]

I've had problems quarantining flasher wrasses and Chloroquine phosphate so I'm using the tank transfer method. I did the second transfer yesterday and he's doing well. He would be due for the third transfer early Sunday morning. I have to go out of town on Sunday afternoon for five days. I'm wondering if it would be best to transfer him a third time on Sunday morning and hope that he's all clear, wait until I get back and start over again, do the third transfer and go through the whole process again when I get back.

Since you will be missing the fourth transfer, you're going to need to start over regardless. If it were me, I'd just keep the fish where he is for now and restart TTM when it can be fully completed.

 

[friartuuk]

Thanks Deinonych. That's what I'll do.

 

[sensei]

I have been treating all fish for my new tank with TTM + prazi, plus the aditional observation weeks.
I have also built a coral QT fishless DT to quarentine all coral and inverts for 72 days to be sure no ich gets in my new system.

When I started 3 years ago I did not QT fish, so everything in my fist tank is not treated but I have never seen ich .
since fish are not treated I have to asume there is ich and I am not free to move one fish from this tank to my new built with out following the QT protocol for fish and coral.

I have become paranoic with ich.
question: if I get my arms wet working in my fist tank were I did not treat fish, and supposing there is ich there. how much time should I allow my arms to dry before getting my hand in my new system that has gone through a strict QT protocol??

my concern is transmiting ich to the other system by getting hands in tank and the other.

 

[jbvdhp]

Guys, you think I can get away with putting a 5-6" Naso and 5-6" Achilles in a 18 gallon sterilite tub to do TTM?


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[LobsterOfJustice]

Anyone done TTM on a leopard wrasse? I can put a dish of sand in each tank, but I usually transfer in the morning before lights are on - I'm thinking I will have to dig him out of the sand for transfer, but is there an easier or less stressful way?


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[thebicyclecafe]

Question for you all on TTM. Thinking about trying this on my next QT, and had an idea to reduce some work/resources.
Since bleach will kill ich (and everything else), I was thinking of doing the following:

Two tanks setup with 35ppt SW. Fish placed in first tank, held for 72 hours, then moved to next tank. Water in tank number 1 receives 8% sodium hypochlorite at 1ml/L water. All equipment in tank number one is disinfected in bleach solution and after 24 hour period, 8% solution of Sodium thiosulfate added at 1ml/L to dechlorinate.
Fish transferred back at the 2nd 72 hour point. Same bleach routine applied to tank number 2, and this is repeated until all transfers are completed.

Will the bleach at that concentration kill all life stages of ich in that time period (24 hours)? Or is more time or a higher concentration required? The dechlorinator will be effective when added at that ratio so I am not terribly concerned with the chlorine being an issue. Also, Seachem Prime added to ameliorate any ammonia concerns. Any thoughts or critiques would be welcome.
Thought this might simplify the process significantly.

 

[Happyschneider]

Why not just get a third heater and plastic box? Probably not much more expensive and at least as effective and no worries about bleach residues when transferring the fish.

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[thebicyclecafe]

Sorry, should clarify, I am reusing the water. Once dechlorinated with Sodium thiosulfate it will not be an issue (at least that is my experience in the past) but wondering what concentration of bleach is proper.

 

[Happyschneider]

Oh, wow. Never thought about doing that...

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[andy01748]

Question for you all on TTM. Thinking about trying this on my next QT, and had an idea to reduce some work/resources.
Since bleach will kill ich (and everything else), I was thinking of doing the following:

Two tanks setup with 35ppt SW. Fish placed in first tank, held for 72 hours, then moved to next tank. Water in tank number 1 receives 8% sodium hypochlorite at 1ml/L water. All equipment in tank number one is disinfected in bleach solution and after 24 hour period, 8% solution of Sodium thiosulfate added at 1ml/L to dechlorinate.
Fish transferred back at the 2nd 72 hour point. Same bleach routine applied to tank number 2, and this is repeated until all transfers are completed.

Will the bleach at that concentration kill all life stages of ich in that time period (24 hours)? Or is more time or a higher concentration required? The dechlorinator will be effective when added at that ratio so I am not terribly concerned with the chlorine being an issue. Also, Seachem Prime added to ameliorate any ammonia concerns. Any thoughts or critiques would be welcome.
Thought this might simplify the process significantly.

Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.

 

[Deinonych]

Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.

I agree. While bleach works great as a disinfectant, it's best to rinse all equipment thoroughly after bleaching, then completely dry before refilling. I would never reuse water during TTM.

 

[thebicyclecafe]

Not recommended, since the chlorine may also react with other organic compounds present to form chlorinated toxic byproducts that will not be neutralized with Prime. For example, regulated toxic trihalomethane compounds found in relatively pristine drinking water are formed as byproducts from disinfection using chlorine.

Thanks for the feedback. I am curious if you have some documentation on that, since chlorine disinfection of culture water is fairly common practice in aquaculture, followed by dechlorination with Sodium thiosulfate. Though household bleach is not the chlorine source of choice in such applications, it is the easiest to obtain for the average hobbyist. I personally do this on all phytoplankton cultures and copepod cultures, although unnecessary for maintenance of my larval tanks. Typical concentrations used in such applications are around the 1ml/L of 6-8% Sodium hypochlorite.

 

[andy01748]

Thanks for the feedback. I am curious if you have some documentation on that, since chlorine disinfection of culture water is fairly common practice in aquaculture, followed by dechlorination with Sodium thiosulfate. Though household bleach is not the chlorine source of choice in such applications, it is the easiest to obtain for the average hobbyist. I personally do this on all phytoplankton cultures and copepod cultures, although unnecessary for maintenance of my larval tanks. Typical concentrations used in such applications are around the 1ml/L of 6-8% Sodium hypochlorite.

Is common knowledge in the drinking water industry. For example:

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/chlorination-byproducts.html

However, to answer your question, and you still want to go this route (which I personally wouldn't do), 60 mg/L of chlorine for 24 hours is documented as successful for disinfection of all Cryptocaryon irritans life stages.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

60 mg/L of chlorine

Anyone volunteer to do the conversion for this to household bleach per gallon? I'm not interested in re-using the water, but I would be interested in adding bleach to the tank after the fish is removed, keep the tank running with bleach-water for 24h, drain, rinse and dry for 24h, followed by re-setup.

For me, part of the benefit of 100% water change every three days is keeping the ammonia down in an uncycled tank. How does ammonia/ammonia binders fit in to this discussion as far as the water re-use is concerned? Does either one react with bleach of sodium thiosulfate negatively? Like I said I'm not interested in re-using the water, but something else to tink about for those who are.