Cycling Process

[boshk]

brother asked me this since I have some experience with freshwater cycling

He has setup a saltwater tank with Live rock and 'dry' sand for about a week.....fishless cycling.

His reading is Amm=0 Nitrite=0 Nitrate=80 Phos=high too...

The theory for saltwater cycling is:

Live rock.....die offs=ammonia
Nitrosomonas breaks down ammonia--->nitrite
Nitrobacter breaks down nitrite--->Nitrate

the extra step for saltwater is....
have to wait for "anaerobic bacteria" in the rock and sand to form and then break down the Nitrate to nitrogen gas....so that it is safe for corals too

Is this correct?

Back to his situation:

Is it nearly cycled within a week? (his live rock does have dieoffs)
What to do with the high Nitrate?
What to do with high phosphates?

 

[jrr98002]

A week is awfully fast for a cycle, but I have heard of it before. If the live rock did have significant enough dieoff to spike ammonia around 3ppm and it's processed to 0ppm, it may indeed be cycled. In regards to high nitrate, a partial water change is the usual course of action. In regards to high phosphate, a WC can also help, or run something like GFO to lower it.

 

[boshk]

A week is awfully fast for a cycle, but I have heard of it before. If the live rock did have significant enough dieoff to spike ammonia around 3ppm and it's processed to 0ppm, it may indeed be cycled. In regards to high nitrate, a partial water change is the usual course of action. In regards to high phosphate, a WC can also help, or run something like GFO to lower it.

yea, I'm thinking its way too fast unless he was very lucky with his live rock and bacteria.

He did a partial water change, waiting to see what his reading are tomorrow.

In regards to the Nitrate level, I know for freshwater anything below 80 is fine but for corals its a different story.
LPS requires less than 20ppm
SPS less than 5ppm?

SO IF his tank is really cycled for 'fish only' (my assumption is sw fish can handle Nitrates greater than 20ppm), does he have to wait until enough Anaerobic bacteria are present in the sand and rocks to convert the Nitrates to Nitrogen gas and keep the Nitrate levels below 20ppm without daily water change?

I know water changes are a must weekly or fortnightly but wc every 2 days to keep Nitrates down would be....excessive right?

 

[gone fishin]

yea, I'm thinking its way too fast unless he was very lucky with his live rock and bacteria.

He did a partial water change, waiting to see what his reading are tomorrow.

In regards to the Nitrate level, I know for freshwater anything below 80 is fine but for corals its a different story.
LPS requires less than 20ppm
SPS less than 5ppm?

SO IF his tank is really cycled for 'fish only' (my assumption is sw fish can handle Nitrates greater than 20ppm), does he have to wait until enough Anaerobic bacteria are present in the sand and rocks to convert the Nitrates to Nitrogen gas and keep the Nitrate levels below 20ppm without daily water change?

I know water changes are a must weekly or fortnightly but wc every 2 days to keep Nitrates down would be....excessive right?

Yes most fish can handle higher nitrates without issue.

The anaerobic bacteria take a long to time to get established so don't let that hold you up.

FWIW some of the easier corals like xenia and kenya trees tend to respond favorably to some nitrates. It will take some time for the tanks chemistry to balance out and there will be different types of algae coming and going for a few months. Good luck

 

[leviburns89]

Just a tip. Once you think your ready, wait a week just to be sure, then check again.

Could save you a couple hundred dollars and weeks/months of work.

I would also get a handle on the phos issue. That could lead to massive algae blooms, and potentially bacteria problems.

 

[boshk]

The anaerobic bacteria take a long to time to get established so don't let that hold you up.

FWIW some of the easier corals like xenia and kenya trees tend to respond favorably to some nitrates. It will take some time for the tanks chemistry to balance out and there will be different types of algae coming and going for a few months. Good luck

"long time" like months??

 

[boshk]

Just a tip. Once you think your ready, wait a week just to be sure, then check again.

Could save you a couple hundred dollars and weeks/months of work.

I would also get a handle on the phos issue. That could lead to massive algae blooms, and potentially bacteria problems.

thanks, I'll let him know, hopefully he is on this forum too.

Too bad he doesn't have pure ammonia otherwise he can do a quick simple check like what I did for my fw tank...

take Nitrate reading
dose pure ammonia to 2ppm....wait 24hrs..
if ammonia=0, nitrite=0 and nitrate is higher, then it means cycled.

Also on this phos issue, do most new fishless cycled sw tanks have this issue?
If its an established tank with corals and fish, one could blame overfeeding, poor maintence etc etc, but for a new tank, it seems the only source of this phos is the rocks whether its live or dry.
How does one handle that? GFO reactor, PhosGuard? starts the get a bit more complex for a beginner if I have to go into reactors so early..

 

[gone fishin]

"long time" like months??

Yes months or longer depending on set up and rock.

 

[leviburns89]

take Nitrate reading
dose pure ammonia to 2ppm....wait 24hrs..
if ammonia=0, nitrite=0 and nitrate is higher, then it means cycled.

Yeah with sw, it never happens that fast.

Unless using a fully established tank, around 120 gallons.

Also, months, in this hobby isn't very long at all.

To get up and running, fully cycled, could be as fast as a month. But that is rare.

Most of the rock available today will leach phosphates for a few months at least, which will give you algae nightmares, unless you chemically treat it. This is called curing, when the rock has leached everything out, it is cured. For some people this may take 6 months up to a year, others can manage it within 1 month. Pukani has been known to take months to fully cure.

Honestly, tell him to take his time, and tell him why. This hobby can easily cost thousands, and if you do it wrong, it's easier to just flush $1000 down the toilet, and save the frustration.

Get him some high end testing equipment, and not to be afraid of waiting.

If he is wanting something to look at, get a cuc, or some live rock. It is amazing how much life there really is in sw. Everything is alive, and needs to be treated as such.

If the cuc survives a month, and params look good, then is the time for adding some worthy livestock.

 

[gikseiman]

Thanks all! I'm the bro haha

I'm in no rush to add anything so will sit it out till nitrates and phosphates drop.

I'm going to try increase the depth of the sand bed to see if that helps. At the moment, it's around 1.2 - 2inchs.

I read oxygen starved bed helps anaerobic bacteria so that should reduce nitrates?

Going to try water change also. Apparently, the live rock was cured...

 

[MadCnty]

Yes wait and retest better safe than sorry... This is not a fast hobby but a rewarding one...

 

[sde1500]

Thanks all! I'm the bro haha

I'm in no rush to add anything so will sit it out till nitrates and phosphates drop.

I'm going to try increase the depth of the sand bed to see if that helps. At the moment, it's around 1.2 - 2inchs.

I read oxygen starved bed helps anaerobic bacteria so that should reduce nitrates?

Going to try water change also. Apparently, the live rock was cured...

You won't really get nitrates to go down. Dose ammonia up again, if it falls to zero in 24 hrs, it is cycled. Nitrate is typically removed through water changes or, if you run one, a fuge with macro algae.

 

[thelawnwrangler]

Thanks all! I'm the bro haha

I'm in no rush to add anything so will sit it out till nitrates and phosphates drop.

I'm going to try increase the depth of the sand bed to see if that helps. At the moment, it's around 1.2 - 2inchs.

I read oxygen starved bed helps anaerobic bacteria so that should reduce nitrates?

Going to try water change also. Apparently, the live rock was cured...

you are going to find some mixed reviews on sand bed- I kind of steered away from a deep sand bed, because it sounds like you can develop pockets of nastiness waiting to be disturbed and released on your tank.

How big is your tank? while you are critter less you have a pretty good option to do a big water change and knock those nitrates and phosphates down. You will still have plenty to feed the growth of that bacteria. Once you get fish and inverts you are going to be worried about potential temp and salinity fluctuations.

 

[ShawnLeary]

don't rush a new setup. more time the safer.

 

[CStrickland]

The way that we talk about the cycle is really oversimplified, which is good enough for our basic goal of getting a tank set up that's a good home for the animals we want to keep. But it's good to remember that there are lots of other processes at work besides ammo-trite-trate. The good thing about established live rock is it brings a lot of those other processes, some of which can take a long time to get going (things like tiny sponges that filter the water, small colonies of cyano that fix nitrogen, and algae that takes up ammonia directly).

The question is how much of the bacteria and those other critters survived the trip to your tank. If the answer is "a lot" then it can easily have enough bacteria after a week to process the ammonia that is created when the stuff that didn't survive decays.

Remember that being cycled isn't really a straight line where one day it's finished. It's more like stair steps. Even once all the ammonia from the live rock is processed you want to add fish slowly so the bacteria population can catch up to the extra ammonia.

I really like my 1.5-2" sand bed. I don't have nitrate issues, and I don't have to worry about the sand collecting nutrients or developing pockets of toxic gas. The bacteria are pretty clever, the ones that prefer less oxygen can live right underneath the ones that use it up in a tiny ecosystem film right on the glass of the tank.

I do agree that live rock can leach phosphate, but I don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as folks act like it is. People use it as an excuse for all kinds of husbandry failure, like a boogieman.

 

[gikseiman]

you are going to find some mixed reviews on sand bed- I kind of steered away from a deep sand bed, because it sounds like you can develop pockets of nastiness waiting to be disturbed and released on your tank.

How big is your tank? while you are critter less you have a pretty good option to do a big water change and knock those nitrates and phosphates down. You will still have plenty to feed the growth of that bacteria. Once you get fish and inverts you are going to be worried about potential temp and salinity fluctuations.

135L tank. I had a avg of about 1-1.5inch sand bed, so added a tad more to see if that helps.

Did a water change tonight also as LFS recommended it also.

Will see how it goes over the next week or so.

 

[gikseiman]

You won't really get nitrates to go down. Dose ammonia up again, if it falls to zero in 24 hrs, it is cycled. Nitrate is typically removed through water changes or, if you run one, a fuge with macro algae.

My phosphate level is quite high at the moment at 1ppm....!

Just changed about 15% of water. I think I need to get that down first right?

I'll drop another krill in to try introduce ammonia that way.

Thanks

 

[gikseiman]

The way that we talk about the cycle is really oversimplified, which is good enough for our basic goal of getting a tank set up that's a good home for the animals we want to keep. But it's good to remember that there are lots of other processes at work besides ammo-trite-trate. The good thing about established live rock is it brings a lot of those other processes, some of which can take a long time to get going (things like tiny sponges that filter the water, small colonies of cyano that fix nitrogen, and algae that takes up ammonia directly).

The question is how much of the bacteria and those other critters survived the trip to your tank. If the answer is "a lot" then it can easily have enough bacteria after a week to process the ammonia that is created when the stuff that didn't survive decays.

Remember that being cycled isn't really a straight line where one day it's finished. It's more like stair steps. Even once all the ammonia from the live rock is processed you want to add fish slowly so the bacteria population can catch up to the extra ammonia.

I really like my 1.5-2" sand bed. I don't have nitrate issues, and I don't have to worry about the sand collecting nutrients or developing pockets of toxic gas. The bacteria are pretty clever, the ones that prefer less oxygen can live right underneath the ones that use it up in a tiny ecosystem film right on the glass of the tank.

I do agree that live rock can leach phosphate, but I don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as folks act like it is. People use it as an excuse for all kinds of husbandry failure, like a boogieman.

Yeah, more I read, more complex the cycle appears to be with lots of factors to consider!

I just topped my sand bed up to about the same now, about 1.5-2".

I called the fish shop I purchased the live rock from and they said phosphate level in their tank was less than 0.25ppm...so I have no idea where its coming from. Maybe the aragonite?

 

[sde1500]

My phosphate level is quite high at the moment at 1ppm....!



Just changed about 15% of water. I think I need to get that down first right?



I'll drop another krill in to try introduce ammonia that way.



Thanks

Yea that's way high. I'd run GFO to pull that down or you'll have a crazy algae bloom.

 

[leviburns89]

I would dose lanthanum chloride before I started using gfo.

If your levels are that high, you could burn thru $100's in gfo before you see results.

Lanthanum binds the phosphate insantly, you just have to be careful how you use it.

There are a bunch of topics about it.