Damsels take a 100 gallon and up tank...

Sk8r

Staff member
RC Mod
Yep. Doesn't look like it. They're small and they stay pretty small, though the Seattle Aquarium has what looks like a one-spot domino that's the size of a dinner plate.

They're colorful, they're inexpensive, they WILL school, which is a pretty sight, and unsuspecting novices, on being sold a 28 gallon tank, pick a nice inexpensive bright blue or striped fish and just can't understand why their next fish comes to grief.

Damsels are NOT particularly aggressive, but they freak in small spaces. Any fish will freak out and kill competition if it feels crowded: rabbits are notorious for this, once they grow too large for a tank. Tangs will do it. Any fish with the ability to kill will do it---if the tank does not afford them enough space.

Here's a good way to handle them. First of all, the only damsels 'safe' to have in small tanks are clowns, the yellowtail, and the chromis. You can have 1 chromis per 25 gallons of DT. They're active, somewhat airheaded, and move constantly, which reassures shyer fish it's safe to come out. BUT overcrowd them, and they'll eliminate each other in battles at night for sleeping holes. Not enough holes that THEY like---disappearing chromis. Dunno if the yellowtail will do this---but probably.

The big virtue of damsels is that, given enough room (that 100 gallons), they squabble and make rushes defending turf, but they never bite each other...unless you have 2 of a kind. You DO NOT want groups of most kinds of damsels. Go for color and variety, and pay attention to the scientific names: do not get two with the same Latin name. I can say I have successfully violated that rule with the golden one-spot and the three-stripe, both of which are dascyllus, and they are spectacular, but I was lucky, and all my others, a fiji blue devil, a blue star, 4 chromis, and such, are milder.

Watch out for the so-called blue velvet and the garabaldi---the first because it is a very aggressive fish and the second because it grows over a foot long. Beautiful, spectacular, but huge.

You want a tank where fish school (the chromis, who go in a group for safety from the dascyllus) and have bright colors and patterns (the dascyllus and fiji blue) and never stop moving---ever---and you have a 100-200 gallon tank, they're a lot of fun. You can also have sedate species like a mandarin or watchman or lawnmower blenny, wrasses---damsels are too occupied with each other in this situation and never offer to aggress at these species. They're probably ok with dwarf angels, although the more timid species may find them too much movement to let them feed securely.

They're absolutely reef safe, but they will redecorate: my obnoxious three-stripe refused to let me set a piece of coral in 'his' doorway: he'd grab a piece 10x his size and move it. Or throw it on the sand. I glued it. He finally gave up.

You want schooling, color, movement, and personality---they've got it. You just have to take them on their terms.

I also discovered the trick of setting up vertical spires here and there: when they chase, they figure-8 around them, get confused, or feel satisfied, and the chase ends. They tend to regard these as territorial markers. They're not that high, some only about 5", but the fish observe them as sort of personal boundaries.

They're one of the few fish (blennies and gobies and dwarf angels being popular others) that are caught and sold nearly adult: about 5" is max for most. So with them, you can build a slice of reef that is pretty well to actual scale.

They're also completely reef safe unless you put a piece of coral where a dascyllus damsel doesn't want it. He won't attack the soft part. But he will try to move it.
 
Great info Sk8r. Do you think a single black-axil would be ok in a 55 with peaceful fish and a pair of ocellaris?
 
The black axils are much like the regular blue-greens, but I would actually advise the blue greens---they'll keep that color forever. The black axils get greyer as they get older. They're fine with clarkii clowns, which is the only variety of clown I ever had, but I imagine they'll be fine with most clowns---who are a variety of damsel. The behaviors and moves are virtually identical, species to species---the dart and bow, the hover in place, the tendency to use their mouths to move things...and the territoriality. The great virtue is that they're usually territorial ONLY toward others who have the same body language, other damsels. Given room enough, they completely ignore fish of other species, such as blennies, gobies, and wrasses. I would NOT pair them with small jawfish, cardinals, or fishes that are a little on the spookable side, because their constant motion will often keep these fish from eating as they should---they're pushy when food falls into the tank. On the complete opposite end---a fragile mandarin can cruise through with absolutely no notice from them. A fish that swims in midwater and is highly nervous is probably a caution with these fellows, but fish that stay near the bottom or near the surface probably won't have a problem. They don't attack other fish---but they can drive them to a case of nerves because they are active and constantly pushing and shoving, sort of like a schoolyard full of third graders.
 
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Never seen one. It's certainly a pretty fish. Looking up Chrysyptera (iptera) they look to include some milder damsels, including the puts-up-with-anything yellowtail. The best way to judge damsel behavior (because they are such a mixed bag) is to look at the Latin name and look at the close relatives. The paraglyphiodons are spectacular, cranky as a junkyard dog and pushy (blue velvet and blackmouth bicolor) and I'd say the chrysipteras are a deal less so. Is there a controversy on the id of this particular fish?
 
One of the prettiest I own is the one-spot golden domino, which is an old-gold color on the fins, with the light shining through, and a somewhat darker gold on the body, with one white spot in mid body....dascyllus species, ergo pushy, and tends to dominate the tank. Also tends to get larger, fatter: doesn't hurt anybody, but doesn't take guff. They're kind of a round profile---flashy as some angels, but absolutely reef safe. I put this one with a three-stripe black and white, also a dascyllus, and these two dominate opposite sides of a 105 gallon deep quarter-cylinder. They don't hurt anybody and don't fight, but they get together periodically to dig and re-dig a hole to the bottom over in the left front corner---I am NOT sure what that hobby is all about, but there's a lot of body contact. If these two should successfully mate, there is absolutely knowing what you get---striped gold fish with a dot in the middle? They are, at least, not fighting anybody over it.
 
Never seen one. It's certainly a pretty fish. Looking up Chrysyptera (iptera) they look to include some milder damsels, including the puts-up-with-anything yellowtail. The best way to judge damsel behavior (because they are such a mixed bag) is to look at the Latin name and look at the close relatives. The paraglyphiodons are spectacular, cranky as a junkyard dog and pushy (blue velvet and blackmouth bicolor) and I'd say the chrysipteras are a deal less so. Is there a controversy on the id of this particular fish?

Not sure you would call it a controversy, but I have seen what I believe to be two different species being marketed under the same name. They don't look much alike at all, to me, and some others have recognized it as well. I believe mine to be the true Springeri, it's pretty much all blue (like the one in the back of this pic) without these pronounced black markings.

chrysiptera-springeri-3.jpg


http://************.com/2010/08/19/chrysiptera-springer/
 
Hmm, seems I've found the banned website. How stupid.

Anyway, run a search for "will the real Chrysyptera Springeri..." and you'll fine a good article with some great photos.
 
I'm in. I have a 4" blue velvet in my 100. He was put there because he was getting beat up by a maroon in a 12g nano. He was in the 100 6 months before I tore down the nano and put the now 2" maroon in the 100. 'Hell-ooo!' he said when the maroon joined the reef. 'Remember me??' Game on for about 2 weeks. Now they just ignore each other
That blue velvet lurks in the nooks and crannies of the rock and comes out to get his food if he's hungry. He may chase once in a while but never hurts anyone.
Love seeing him..
Duh-Dum da-dum duh-dum
 
Lol---blue velvet one of those who can go toe to toe with a maroon...which has been known to grab another tankmate and stuff him in the nem. I think you've got a match there. The dascyllus might be a good add, if you get a larger one, and likewise the reef chromis might be fast enough to give the tough guys a workout without getting caught.
 
... Here's a good way to handle them. First of all, the only damsels 'safe' to have in small tanks are clowns, the yellowtail, and the chromis. You can have 1 chromis per 25 gallons of DT. They're active, somewhat airheaded, and move constantly, which reassures shyer fish it's safe to come out. BUT overcrowd them, and they'll eliminate each other in battles at night for sleeping holes. Not enough holes that THEY like---disappearing chromis. Dunno if the yellowtail will do this---but probably....

Yellow tails, like most Chrysiptera or Pomacentrus, even Dascyllus, are best kept in pairs or harems groups. This goes pretty much for most damsels. They do better in pairs or harems groups if space allows it.
Of course Dascyllus will get too big for the small beginner tanks you normally find them in and get nasty regardless if alone or in pairs.

... The big virtue of damsels is that, given enough room (that 100 gallons), they squabble and make rushes defending turf, but they never bite each other...unless you have 2 of a kind. You DO NOT want groups of most kinds of damsels. ...

I would disagree with this. Damsels change sex like clownfish (only they change the other way around: female to male) therefore it is relatively easy to make pairs or even groups. Serious fights will only erupt if all are the same size, the tank is too small or you got more than one male of one species.

... Go for color and variety, ...

That way you will end up with a whole bunch of hormone laden single males that have no safe outlet for their excess energy and start bullying other tank mates.

The importance of researching the species you want to add to your tank can't be overstressed though. Many of the large damsels have cute and colorful juveniles that will soon turn into ugly (in all meanings of the word) adults.
 
I'm glad to know (and not very surprised at) the sex change. In general, however, the practical tank size problem limits what you can keep. Damsels move fast and are generally up and active. If you have the ideal Very Big Tank, yes, it would be wonderful to have multiples in a 300 gallon, but again, it's that 'room' thing. If you put a mated pair of any damsel species into an environment (eg clowns) their space requirement is not surprisingly twice what one clown takes, and if breeding, they want that territory pretty much to themselves. I don't advocate keeping pairs of the larger clowns unless you've got more than a 100---been there. I did find them a happy home with a breeder, and saw their offspring ---hundreds of them, which I never could have handled in my setup (of course they'd have been eaten, but not without a battle royal). A monster tank able to support several varieties with running room for all...would be spectacular.
 
Sk8r,

I have been reading many of your posts, particularly pertaining to damsels, today (and am continuing reading them). I have inherited a 75 gallon tank. The fish that came with it are:

3 green chromis

1 firefish

1 large pajama cardinal

1 purple dottyback

The fish I would love to add:

1 individual or 1 pair of percula clowns

1 yellowtail or azure damsel

1 foxface lo and/or Kole tang

1 flame hawkfish

1 coral beauty

1 type of goby (TBD)

Would this be overcrowding the 75 gallon, and if not, do you see any issues, be it with the damsels or elsewhere?

Thanks in advance for any insight, and thanks a lot for your very informative threads!

-Rich
 
I have a 90g with a Coral Beauty, Green Filefish, Orange Tail Filefish, pair of Clownfish, YWG and a Tricolor Wrasse.

I bought 5 Blue Reef Chromis from LA and they arrived fine - acclimated them and they were fine for 2 days, then I had 4. I ordered another and put it in - was fine for a day and then back to 4. Then, the next day 3. I have about 125lbs of live rock and the tank has been up for 3 years, so well established. Do you think it's a matter of sleeping holes they like? I would like 5, but hate to keep putting more in the tank only to end up with three again. Here's a pic of my tank and the three Blue Reef Chromis.
 
I have a 90g with a Coral Beauty, Green Filefish, Orange Tail Filefish, pair of Clownfish, YWG and a Tricolor Wrasse.

I bought 5 Blue Reef Chromis from LA and they arrived fine - acclimated them and they were fine for 2 days, then I had 4. I ordered another and put it in - was fine for a day and then back to 4. Then, the next day 3. I have about 125lbs of live rock and the tank has been up for 3 years, so well established. Do you think it's a matter of sleeping holes they like? I would like 5, but hate to keep putting more in the tank only to end up with three again. Here's a pic of my tank and the three Blue Reef Chromis.


From my dealings with chromis .
I have 5 blue green chormis in my 225. its now been about 4 years since i lost any but i started with 13 . when a few would disappear i would add a few more when i could find them the same size of the existing ones.
What i noticed is they always pick on the most timid and smallest one. Last time i added two into my tank i got them because of one them was in a community tank at local fish store (it was a trade in fish ) very small chromis but super aggressive. I STOPPED the lets kill the small one. Now they all get along as good as any group of chromis can. they swim together right before feeding time and when my Female Terror clown decides to bully them .The still small chromis . half the size of the other 4 rules the pack of them. It seem this has stopped the killing off the smaller one..

so i think its more then just the dynamics of the fish but the whole system .
we love ours.
in the tank we have
1. yellow tank about 4 inch
1. scopes tank about 4 inch
1 lavender tank about 3 inches
5 blue green chromis
mated pair of percula clowns (they are about 6 years old)
1. blue line cleaner wrasse about 4 inches long ( one of my fav fish .) its tank mates love him too. he will clean my hand if i put it in there.
1.royal gramma very awesome and sneeky aggressive fish
the tank is a custom size that i 84 inch long and 30 inch deep i think 22 inches tall.
 
No, they don't...

If you really want to boil it down, those tangs need a MUCH bigger tank.. (as opposed to damsels) Unfortunately most of us can't accommodate these fish properly. There has to be some sort of leeway...
A happy home? (regardless)
 
No, they don't...

If you really want to boil it down, those tangs need a MUCH bigger tank.. (as opposed to damsels) Unfortunately most of us can't accommodate these fish properly. There has to be some sort of leeway...
A happy home? (regardless)


I think it would depend on the exact tang and how many you have vs the size of the tank.. but tangs do need a long take to swim..

chromis need a big tank because they are territorial to each other
 
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