DRThompson
2018 FMAS President
Your skimmer will chew up most of it. You will notice after a few months pineapple sponges growing between your rocks or even in your sump. The bacteria will feed the sponge, this is normal.
DIY Natureef Style Denitrator Build and Data thread...
- Thread starter mrx66699
- Start date
Hi guys I have a 1and half yr old 220 gal with 60 gal fugel which I've had cyano in for months now tried everything figure might try this I have the 60 gal already set up that I could follow this system on would I be able to flush this larger system 1-2 times a day instead of adding another smaller tank / chamber and flushing 3-4 times a day??
Thanks for your help
Thanks for your help
mrx66699
New member
Well your first question....yes you could use that chamber ....I use a 30 gal even though you do not need that large of a chamber.....2nd question what would the chamber have to do with a power outage I would just stop it from flushing until we got power back and I got it back online and in order....first priority would be getting some circulation for the dt and fish and corals ....=generator if its goinf to be more than juat a few hours
StevieK
New member
this sounds like a phosphate issue ...
have we figured out if we are doing more than nitrates?
Hi Stevie possibly I do use lanthanium chloride and Gfo and color is good on sps either way I've heard good things about this system and wanna give it a try !!
Question too Matt and Dr T
Can u use any carbon source for this or does it need to be either methanol or the other product sold by nureef ?
Thank you for sharing ur experience with us?
Btw any pictures of ur display?
How long does ur flush last? 15 min reason I ask is the apex is beyond my computer skills so I'd be using a doser to feed the methanol and a mag 5 on a timer to feed / flush tank
Question too Matt and Dr T
Can u use any carbon source for this or does it need to be either methanol or the other product sold by nureef ?
Thank you for sharing ur experience with us?
Btw any pictures of ur display?
How long does ur flush last? 15 min reason I ask is the apex is beyond my computer skills so I'd be using a doser to feed the methanol and a mag 5 on a timer to feed / flush tank
mrx66699
New member
The carbon source for this we are using is Methonal as that is what the naturereef product is made from Methonal .....just much cheaper than what they sell the nitragon for.....also Methonal is pure and easier for the bacteria to break down with no additives like other commonly used carbon sources....
As far as the Apex if you have it set up with Fusion any one of us can come on your apex setup and program the outlets for you if you just give proper permissions within Fusion...
Display pics here you go
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/potters_zpsfe538a53.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/potters_zpsfe538a53.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo potters_zpsfe538a53.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/redtails3_zpsb148c632.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/redtails3_zpsb148c632.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo redtails3_zpsb148c632.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/1387927930895_zps19fa02e2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/1387927930895_zps19fa02e2.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1387927930895_zps19fa02e2.jpg"/></a>
<a href="http://s17.photobucket.com/user/mrx66699/media/IMAG7325_zpsa9362b99.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/mrx66699/IMAG7325_zpsa9362b99.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMAG7325_zpsa9362b99.jpg"/></a>
Wow I've had luck with the yellow tails but not the red tails beautiful is there a psyc head in there male??
That sounds great I've decided to source a 30 gal acrylic tank and Also gonna get an apex for Xmas I think also need a doser ill check in as I collect the parts i need for this project
Thanks again
That sounds great I've decided to source a 30 gal acrylic tank and Also gonna get an apex for Xmas I think also need a doser ill check in as I collect the parts i need for this project
Thanks again
DRThompson
2018 FMAS President
Chamber should NOT be air tight. The end result of this reaction is the creation of nitrogen gas. You want to gas off the Nitrogen.
10g chamber would be a perfect size for your 120g system. What are your nitrates at now?
I just move from my old tank to a new tank 2 months ago. Before the move I was able to run Chaeto alone to reduce NO3 and PO4 to close to zero (without GFO).
With the new tank is between 10ppm and 40ppm. That's the best resolution I can get from the API test kit. PO4 is about 0.06 now after I turned off the GFO about 5 days ago. When the GFO was running PO4 was zero. I was suspecting with undetectable PO4 Chaeto was not growing well.
I am getting the Salifert nitrate kit so hopefully I will get a little higher resolution on the test
With the new tank is between 10ppm and 40ppm. That's the best resolution I can get from the API test kit. PO4 is about 0.06 now after I turned off the GFO about 5 days ago. When the GFO was running PO4 was zero. I was suspecting with undetectable PO4 Chaeto was not growing well.
I am getting the Salifert nitrate kit so hopefully I will get a little higher resolution on the test
A few more questions. Please let me know if I am over simplify things. The chemical process is
5 CH3OH + 6 NO3- ----> 3 N2(gas) + 5 CO2 + 7 H2O + 6 OH-
At the peak of the reaction there is noticeable increase in nitrite.
Assuming it takes exactly X amount of methanol to process the water in the reactor to 0 nitrate in Y hours. Since we do not know exact what X and Y are the following questions apply.
1. What happens if there is less than X amount of methanol dosed? Will the processed water simply have slightly higher than 0 nitrate?
2. What happens if there is more than X amount of methanol dosed? Will this be flushing into the DT and end up accumulating in the DT? How would we know when this happens?
3. If the reaction is completed less than Y will the bacteria die due to lack of carbon source? For example, can I get a bigger reactor and flush only once per day?
4. What if the reaction is not completed when the reactor is flushed? Will the nitrite enough problem in the DT?
5. Is there a concern that the bacteria will clog the overflow? I am think whether I should have two overflow drains.
Thanks
5 CH3OH + 6 NO3- ----> 3 N2(gas) + 5 CO2 + 7 H2O + 6 OH-
At the peak of the reaction there is noticeable increase in nitrite.
Assuming it takes exactly X amount of methanol to process the water in the reactor to 0 nitrate in Y hours. Since we do not know exact what X and Y are the following questions apply.
1. What happens if there is less than X amount of methanol dosed? Will the processed water simply have slightly higher than 0 nitrate?
2. What happens if there is more than X amount of methanol dosed? Will this be flushing into the DT and end up accumulating in the DT? How would we know when this happens?
3. If the reaction is completed less than Y will the bacteria die due to lack of carbon source? For example, can I get a bigger reactor and flush only once per day?
4. What if the reaction is not completed when the reactor is flushed? Will the nitrite enough problem in the DT?
5. Is there a concern that the bacteria will clog the overflow? I am think whether I should have two overflow drains.
Thanks
DRThompson
2018 FMAS President
A few more questions. Please let me know if I am over simplify things. The chemical process is
5 CH3OH + 6 NO3- ----> 3 N2(gas) + 5 CO2 + 7 H2O + 6 OH-
Equation is correct, though NO3 goes thru intermediates(NO2 and N2O) before becoming N2(g)
Theoretical nitrate reduction reactions:
NO3- +3e + 2H = NO2- + H2O
then NO2- + 3e + 4H = 1/2(N2) + 2(H2O)
At the peak of the reaction there is noticeable increase in nitrite.
Yes but only during the first couple of cycles. IME, as the chamber "matures" the reactions happen simultaneously and are not easily testable
Assuming it takes exactly X amount of methanol to process the water in the reactor to 0 nitrate in Y hours. Since we do not know exact what X and Y are the following questions apply.
My general rule is 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of grams of methanol needed to process grams of nitrate. IME, this ratio is for startup and when nitrates are >10mg/L. Dont try to micro manage the dose when you get under 10mg/L.
1. What happens if there is less than X amount of methanol dosed?
The bacteria only uses the Oxygen from NO3 when the level of Oxygen in the water is low or not available. During the first 3/4 of the cycle the bacteria is using up the O2 in the water. If the methanol runs out the reaction will stop. The heterotrophic bacteria will stop growing without an organic carbon source.
Will the processed water simply have slightly higher than 0 nitrate?
Depending on when/where in the cycle it ran out of methanol, yes. If you WAY underdose you might end up with MORE nitrates. IME the reaction happens at different speeds and not all at once for the whole chamber. That is why good circulation is important to keep the reaction going.
2. What happens if there is more than X amount of methanol dosed? Will this be flushing into the DT and end up accumulating in the DT?
If you have excess Methanol that is not used before you flush, it will end up in the rest of your system. If it is a small amount it will just feed the heterotrophic bacteria that is growing in your system. It will not accumulate, it will get eaten.
We all have areas where there are pockets of low oxygen where this bacteria grows IE: between rocks, inside piping, in your sand...etc
How would we know when this happens?
If too much methanol gets released you could experience a bacterial bloom in your DT (cloudy water is a sign of bacterial bloom)
3. If the reaction is completed less than Y will the bacteria die due to lack of carbon source?
Theoretically, some of heterotrophic bacteria will go dormant for a while if there is not enough food. Die off should not be an issue. Heterotrophic bacteria grow VERY fast; doubling is measured in minutes to hours. Conversely, autotrophic bacteria grow slow; usually measured in days to weeks.(autotrophic bacteria is usually the limiting factor in starting up a new fish tank) Eventually, once the NO3 reaction is complete, the bacteria will change to using SO4 for a source of electrons once the O2 and NO3 are used up. IME, it takes a LONG time to switch to sulfur. Also, dosing strontium Nitrate to the chamber helps prevent this.
For example, can I get a bigger reactor and flush only once per day?
Unless you have a large system I wouldnt advise a huge reaction chamber. IMO, you should aim for a chamber that, when flushed 3 times a day, removes nitrates from approx 10-20% water volume. Also, when you flush, you are dumping water filled with this bacteria into your system. While this bacteria is GREAT for SPS, LPS, sponges and other filter feeders, it is WAY more than they can use/eat. A lot of the excess will get removed with a good protein skimmer. Beyond that, it will just die off and create more waste.
4. What if the reaction is not completed when the reactor is flushed? Will the nitrite enough problem in the DT?
Again, I've only been able to test positively for these intermediates when the chamber is new. IMO, as it builds up bacteria these reactions happen quicker and more simultaneously. I have not seen where Nitrite has been a problem. After a few months you should notice the build up of N2 gas bubbles in the chamber, this is normal and expected. Also, this is why it is best to flush the chamber ABOVE the water line (to help gas off the N2)
5. Is there a concern that the bacteria will clog the overflow? I am think whether I should have two overflow drains.
I've never seen it happen but, YES, it is possible. You will get a build up of excess bacteria and it is very thick and slimy! It will also accumulate brown globs of "biomass" over time.
My setup:
200gal system
a 10gal acrylic chamber (approx 20"x8"x24")
Internal pump is WP10 at highest setting for good internal circulation
a pvc 1/2" pipe for flushing - powered by a maxijet 1200
PVC 1" pipe for the output with overflow box to help the drain and prevent clogging
You be gravity draining/flushing the chamber so make sure your output piping is large enough to accommodate the flow of your flushing pump.
5 CH3OH + 6 NO3- ----> 3 N2(gas) + 5 CO2 + 7 H2O + 6 OH-
Equation is correct, though NO3 goes thru intermediates(NO2 and N2O) before becoming N2(g)
Theoretical nitrate reduction reactions:
NO3- +3e + 2H = NO2- + H2O
then NO2- + 3e + 4H = 1/2(N2) + 2(H2O)
At the peak of the reaction there is noticeable increase in nitrite.
Yes but only during the first couple of cycles. IME, as the chamber "matures" the reactions happen simultaneously and are not easily testable
Assuming it takes exactly X amount of methanol to process the water in the reactor to 0 nitrate in Y hours. Since we do not know exact what X and Y are the following questions apply.
My general rule is 3:1 or 4:1 ratio of grams of methanol needed to process grams of nitrate. IME, this ratio is for startup and when nitrates are >10mg/L. Dont try to micro manage the dose when you get under 10mg/L.
1. What happens if there is less than X amount of methanol dosed?
The bacteria only uses the Oxygen from NO3 when the level of Oxygen in the water is low or not available. During the first 3/4 of the cycle the bacteria is using up the O2 in the water. If the methanol runs out the reaction will stop. The heterotrophic bacteria will stop growing without an organic carbon source.
Will the processed water simply have slightly higher than 0 nitrate?
Depending on when/where in the cycle it ran out of methanol, yes. If you WAY underdose you might end up with MORE nitrates. IME the reaction happens at different speeds and not all at once for the whole chamber. That is why good circulation is important to keep the reaction going.
2. What happens if there is more than X amount of methanol dosed? Will this be flushing into the DT and end up accumulating in the DT?
If you have excess Methanol that is not used before you flush, it will end up in the rest of your system. If it is a small amount it will just feed the heterotrophic bacteria that is growing in your system. It will not accumulate, it will get eaten.
We all have areas where there are pockets of low oxygen where this bacteria grows IE: between rocks, inside piping, in your sand...etcHow would we know when this happens?
If too much methanol gets released you could experience a bacterial bloom in your DT (cloudy water is a sign of bacterial bloom)
3. If the reaction is completed less than Y will the bacteria die due to lack of carbon source?
Theoretically, some of heterotrophic bacteria will go dormant for a while if there is not enough food. Die off should not be an issue. Heterotrophic bacteria grow VERY fast; doubling is measured in minutes to hours. Conversely, autotrophic bacteria grow slow; usually measured in days to weeks.(autotrophic bacteria is usually the limiting factor in starting up a new fish tank) Eventually, once the NO3 reaction is complete, the bacteria will change to using SO4 for a source of electrons once the O2 and NO3 are used up. IME, it takes a LONG time to switch to sulfur. Also, dosing strontium Nitrate to the chamber helps prevent this.
For example, can I get a bigger reactor and flush only once per day?
Unless you have a large system I wouldnt advise a huge reaction chamber. IMO, you should aim for a chamber that, when flushed 3 times a day, removes nitrates from approx 10-20% water volume. Also, when you flush, you are dumping water filled with this bacteria into your system. While this bacteria is GREAT for SPS, LPS, sponges and other filter feeders, it is WAY more than they can use/eat. A lot of the excess will get removed with a good protein skimmer. Beyond that, it will just die off and create more waste.
4. What if the reaction is not completed when the reactor is flushed? Will the nitrite enough problem in the DT?
Again, I've only been able to test positively for these intermediates when the chamber is new. IMO, as it builds up bacteria these reactions happen quicker and more simultaneously. I have not seen where Nitrite has been a problem. After a few months you should notice the build up of N2 gas bubbles in the chamber, this is normal and expected. Also, this is why it is best to flush the chamber ABOVE the water line (to help gas off the N2)
5. Is there a concern that the bacteria will clog the overflow? I am think whether I should have two overflow drains.
I've never seen it happen but, YES, it is possible. You will get a build up of excess bacteria and it is very thick and slimy! It will also accumulate brown globs of "biomass" over time.
My setup:
200gal system
a 10gal acrylic chamber (approx 20"x8"x24")
Internal pump is WP10 at highest setting for good internal circulation
a pvc 1/2" pipe for flushing - powered by a maxijet 1200
PVC 1" pipe for the output with overflow box to help the drain and prevent clogging
You be gravity draining/flushing the chamber so make sure your output piping is large enough to accommodate the flow of your flushing pump.
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DRThompson
2018 FMAS President
It's GREAT for reducing nitrates! My 200g system has 30fish and I feed 8-10 cubes a day. My nitrates are at 2.5mg/L (just tested them today using salifert test kit) I currently cycle my chamber 3 times a day. My cycle actually is complete (nitrate undetectable) in under 6 hours.
LMK if you need any more help. PM me if you want to get some bacteria from me.
LMK if you need any more help. PM me if you want to get some bacteria from me.
DRThompson
2018 FMAS President
mrx66699
New member
Nice purchase ....it will take a controller or some sort of timers to run this type of dosing bio reactor properly long term.....and as Dave has said this system will allow you to stock heavily and feed naturally......
The overall health of our animals should be the number one concern when deciding to house them not how can I skimp on their food in order to house them and have acceptable water numbers for a reef while compensating for my failing/failed/underperforming filtration system, or lack thereof in commitment to it.....
The overall health of our animals should be the number one concern when deciding to house them not how can I skimp on their food in order to house them and have acceptable water numbers for a reef while compensating for my failing/failed/underperforming filtration system, or lack thereof in commitment to it.....
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