DIY Natureef Style Denitrator Build and Data thread...

[SPotter]

I just might have to join your local club and come to that meeting for the chance to win!!!!! I miss having an active reef club! The hobby isn't that popular in this part of SC.

 

[mrx66699]

So tonight's log 2.26.2014 chamber readings at the bottom

ok I thought I would take and put the readings side by side from yesterday and today

2.24

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2.26

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Definitely a noticeable difference in the Nitrate and a slight difference in the Nitrite

Display tank still same as we have not flushed the chamber yet so I will wait to post that again other than the first one yesterday to give a baseline

 

[DRThompson]

:celeb3efinitely think we are past the peak. First cycle might end tomorrow.

 

[samaytt]

Any particular reason what makes this better than biopellets for nitrates? Or even using djfrankie's Diy denigrators based on sulfur media that came out years ago. None require any type of chemicals added

Just trying to get your input.

 

[Biggar]

Wow, Did I see nitrate 150 to 5. Nice job. Raffling one would be awesome just after a demo.

 

[mrx66699]

Any particular reason what makes this better than biopellets for nitrates? Or even using djfrankie's Diy denigrators based on sulfur media that came out years ago. None require any type of chemicals added

Just trying to get your input.

Bio pellets feed a whole tank and take months to even start working as the biological needs to build up to a level equal with the complete volume of the system, also flow can be a problem if they start to clump....this works on a quicker reaction time and this promotes a different kind of bacteria I do believe...Dr Thompson could give a better technical answer to that ....also I do know from using the sulfur denitrators myself I had some small success using one but again they were a lot more temperamental, clogging all the time and needing degassed almost everyday and then die off would occur, then build up would again need to take place... and again did not work as quickly on the total bio load ......just an opinion from using all three of these with a large fish load this choice is a more complete, measured, less needed interaction, and faster reacting setup ....pretty much a set and forget once cycles are dialed in correctly with no daily degassing or waiting months to hope for a reaction, once dialed in cycles are completing with a measured 0 amount of nitrates 3-4 times a day.....in this case I have a 30 gal chamber that will flush approximately 90-120 gallons a day with an exact 0 reading.....Im sure Doc will post some follow ups that can explain technical differences ...

 

[DRThompson]

Just to give everyone an update:

We are on day 5 of the first cycle.
Nitrite is still present but holding steady.
Nitrate initially went down but is back up. (the main reason for adding more methanol)
Oxygen test was a bust, test kit might be too old.
Should be getting some ORP readings soon.
Chamber water is cloudy and full of the slimy bacteria.

The bacteria is obviously booming but probably ran out of gas so we are going with a 2nd dose of methanol to keep the reaction going. Our first dose at 9pm sunday was 10ml of pure methanol. Matt will be adding another 10ml today. I'm hoping we just need a little more time and food(methanol) to get this thing anoxic and start removing the nitrogen.

Overall I think we are on track with initial expectations; I'm hoping the first cycle will complete before the 10 day mark.

 

[DRThompson]

Any particular reason what makes this better than biopellets for nitrates? Or even using djfrankie's Diy denigrators based on sulfur media that came out years ago. None require any type of chemicals added

Just trying to get your input.

Tough question to answer. I'm more of a "what works best for you" kinda person. I have many friends who use and love vodka and/or vinegar. I have friends who use and love biopellets. I've been using the biodenitrator for over 2 years and have had great success with it.

Here's my take on different forms of carbon dosing:

Biopellets, vodka, vinegar, sugar, and methanol are all forms of carbon dosing. They all fuel heterotrophic bacteria that use the carbon as a food source. The bacteria will only use nitrogen when the oxygen is low (anoxic). Generally, all of these will require a GOOD skimmer to work properly since the excess bacteria will become a food source for nuisance bacteria if not properly skimmed.

With vodka, vinegar and sugar dosing the bacteria has to find a home and a place to grow within your system. Usually somewhere there is low-flow or low oxygen.(between rocks, on piping, inside sump, in the sandbed...etc) I have personally never used this form of carbon dosing but the dosing seems more of an art-form than a science experiment. To coin a phrase, it is dosed based on your "tank personality".

Biopellet reactors are good that they give the bacteria a virtual unlimited supply of carbon and the bacteria will grow on the pellets and in the reactor. Personally, I think biopellets are a GREAT way to reduce nitrates. I still think the reactors need some tweaking though. I think the best biopellet reactor is a recirculating reactor where you can control the effluent/output and the contact time.

Our methanol denitrator provides a reaction chamber for the bacteria to grow quickly to remove nitrates. The chamber is completely separate from the system. Once established the results are instantly measurable; when each cycle is complete the water in the chamber is free of nitrates. The "nitrate free" water is flushed back into the system and the cycle starts over. Many people who are successful with these methanol type biodenitrators will do fewer water changes or even stop them all together. With larger systems, the idea of decreased water changes is VERY appealing and also becomes cost effective.

On a special note:
What my biodenitrator allows me to do is have an increased bioload (more fish). Also, I like the fact that I dont have to worry about how much I feed. I tend to be an over-feeder; I like to keep my fish happy. I have a 200gal system with 30fish(4 of them are tangs) and feed 4 cubes of frozen food twice a day. I also add a small nori sheet daily. My nitrates hold steady at 2.5mg/L on the salifert test kit. I have softies, LPS, and SPS that flourish in this environment.

I would HIGHLY recommend a methanol biodenitrator to anyone who has the space for one. I realize the chamber takes up space and that is often a limiting factor for smaller systems.

 

[SPotter]

Great info Dave! Will this system also control po4 ? I noticed on the system that's made by naturereef they have a phosphate removal option. What is that and does you methanol method do the same thing?

 

[DRThompson]

Great info Dave! Will this system also control po4 ? I noticed on the system that's made by naturereef they have a phosphate removal option. What is that and does you methanol method do the same thing?

The phosphagone in the natureef product uses strontium nitrate to remove phosphates. I still havent figured out the concentration of their solution.

Strontium Nitrate is widely used and can be purchased in the pure powder form. It burns crimson red and is used in road flares, sparklers and pyrotechnic shows.

The reaction:
Without delving into the chemistry equations.....You add the strontium Nitrate to the reaction chamber. When the chamber goes anoxic and the bacteria start using Nitrogen, the strontium gets removed from the Nitrate and then binds to phosphate. The Strontium Phosphate precipitates out of solution.

I'm not sure if it just falls to the bottom of the chamber or if it also get skimmed out after you flush. I have a salifert Sr test kit and the concentration of Sr in my tank is normal. I did have my water tested (aquariumwatertesting.com) back in Nov 2013 and my strontium levels were in the normal range but on the higher side of the range. Again, I've been using the phosphagone for over 2 years.

In my experience GFO works better to remove phosphates than their phosphagone product. However, I recently ordered some SrNO3 powder and will be experimenting with different concentrations to remove phosphates when added to the reaction chamber.

 

[SPotter]

any updates guys?

 

[mrx66699]

Yes I will put up some pics later on of measurments

 

[mpfeiffer1]

I guess raised nitrite levels is a normal reaction to the bacteria increase and is a sign of the cycle taking place. Still gives me the chills. Have you had any negative effects due to the nitrite levels in your tank?... If you were to do this on a smaller tank, would it be advisable to remove the corals and possibly fish until the cycle is complete? Just curious and already preparing for round 2 (i.e, my 72BF)... LOL..

 

[mrx66699]

I guess raised nitrite levels is a normal reaction to the bacteria increase and is a sign of the cycle taking place. Still gives me the chills. Have you had any negative effects due to the nitrite levels in your tank?... If you were to do this on a smaller tank, would it be advisable to remove the corals and possibly fish until the cycle is complete? Just curious and already preparing for round 2 (i.e, my 72BF)... LOL..

Matt I think you are a little confused, the cycle is not taking place in the DT it is taking place in the 30 gal media chamber, and yes the increased levels are a sign that things are working they will peak just before they go 0 should be soon now, getting closer....and no you would not remove anything as you would not flush the chamber until the cycle completes and the water volume in the chamber is at 0 which would be just like a clean water change ....

** Tonights readings have stayed just about the same as they were in the 20-40 range but the bacteria is starting to clump up on the egg crate and looks as if its getting a more organized look to it and also starting to change coloring, more of a brownish/tan tint than the clear transparent look, a more mature look if you will

 

[mpfeiffer1]

Gotcha. I thought you were flushing it already and the whole tank was going thru a mini-cycle. I got it now... Makes a lot more sense now.
Thank you for the clarification. Looking forward to the next chapter in this "denitrator book"...

 

[DRThompson]

Matthew, we are still on the first cycle that was started Feb 23. Although it looked like it was going to cycle early, we are still on track. We've never run a denitrator of this size (30gal). I'm hoping it will complete the first cycle before the 2 week mark (this coming sunday).

 

[bigrock]

You mention earlier about it being like a mini water change when you finally flush the reactor. Once established and running properly do you plan to continue water changes as normal or scale them back?

Very interesting information.

 

[DRThompson]

When Adolf Klostermann first started experimenting with these denitrater chambers in the 90's he stopped water changes all together. I also know guys who run these denitraters without doing any water changes.

I'm a firm believer in water changes. IMO, there are too many things we don't test for that will build up in the system. The fishtank is a giant chemistry experiment with a slurry of leftover sulfate/phosphate/carbonate/Cl...etc salts that are all byproducts formed to balance the reactions.

My denitrater chamber is about 12 gal and cycles 3 times per day. I've been running it for over 2 years now. My nitrates stay between 2.5-5mg/L on salifert.

I do continue to do water changes though. I use an automated water change system to change out 2gal per day on my 200 gal system.

I'm not sure what Matt's normal water change schedule is. Our goal with this denitrater is to get his nitrates under control and improve he overall tank health.

 

[StevieK]

We are on day 5 of the first cycle.
Nitrite is still present but holding steady.
Nitrate initially went down but is back up. (the main reason for adding more methanol)

The bacteria is obviously booming but probably ran out of gas so we are going with a 2nd dose of methanol to keep the reaction going. Our first dose at 9pm sunday was 10ml of pure methanol. Matt will be adding another 10ml today. I'm hoping we just need a little more time and food(methanol) to get this thing anoxic and start removing the nitrogen.

OK, got the jist, great work so far. I am wondering about dosing methanol and the amounts. Based on your work so far on your 200g system, how often do you intend to add 10ml into the system

 

[StevieK]

i also found 99.9% methanol sold as HEET fuel line anti-freeze. wondering if this is OK?