Does lineage matter to you?

[jmaneyapanda]

Todd:

I have really dont know what you are arguing here. Are yuo arguing that lineages are provable? Or that they help in IDing? Or that captive grown corals are good?

I guess how arguably subtle the color difference it depends upon whether or not you are color blind. But then again it doesn't matter for this conversation. The AWE Rouge originated (in this hobby) from a colony imported from Kupang in '02. This coral has alot of history in many tanks here in so Cal. Under different lighting, current, water chemistry there are mild variations. It is a coral where you are gauranteed that every coralite has been grown under captive conditions. Now if we can call any coral with similar color and growth form the AWE Rouge great. When the consumer buys they can worry if it is just a fresh cut frag from a recently wild collected colony. They can wonder if the color will hold true. They can wonder if it will live. The name is not patented. Like I said before .. it is a matter of ethics or morals. If the AWE Rouge doesn't retain color in your tank, it is still the AWE Rouge. We just need to compare water chemistry, lighting, cuurrent etc etc and fins out why. Or you bought some other coral that claimed to be a tried and tested coral in this industry. Bad lineage....!! =)

I dont understand how you can say that the differences in color is so obvious, only color blind people can't ID it, and yet you're worried about "imposters". If they are so easy to tell, why and how do other people sully the name of AWE Rouge with their sales? Yet, in the same paragraph, you say that if it doesnt have the same colors in my tank, it is still the AWE Rouge. How can this be? How can it only be easily and properly identified by color, yet color is inconsequential in its ID? If you are arguing whether captive raised corals are hardier, you have no argument from me. But this thread has NOTHING to do with that.

They can be gauranteed by buying from a trusted vendor or hobbyist, trading with somone they trust. They can also compare pics I have posted with the pictures from their supplier, or even with the colony they see in a tank. I do believe they can pic up any named coral with some degree of confidence that it is from the proper lineage. Vendors and hobbyists alike NEED to be RESPONSIBLE and NOT Mislead people. Is it fool proof.. NO.

This is NOT a way to confirm or guarantee any lineage. It is a way to be confortable with a purchase. Trust guarantees nothing. As you have made clear (and I agree with), it is unethical to trade something KNOWING it isn't as advertised. Yet, it is not unethical (although it may be improper) to *inadvertantly* trade something that was mis-IDed. If I trust my vendors completely, and they are selling me a coral labelled as AWE Rouge, does this guarantee me it is a AWE Rouge? Absolutely not. They might have accidentally or inadvertantly identified, packed, shipped the wrong coral. So my linegae is false and unverifiable. As I have been proclaiming, the only way for me to have the true confirmed lineage, is to purchase it from the brand "owner". I bought the AWE Rouge from AWE, so I know its an AWE Rouge. Anything else is heresay and is subject to accidental, and possibly unnoticed human error, at best. At worst, it is subject to fraudulent and devious mis marketing.

Thanks for your permission =). I don't see it as elitist at all. Nor do I see it as borderline "Monopolistic."

I assume and hope you were only joking with that first sentence. Please do not takle this thread as a personal attack. I am not attack you, your company, nor your ethics. Simply discussing an arguable issue, right?

I do find this to be faulty, illogical conclusions. If you feel that the numerous reason I have offered give the consumer no greater benefit yes that is your opinion. "technically" If lineage matters to you there are MANY honest vendors and hobbyists who have acquired the "AWE Rouge" from me. If anyone would like the "AWE Rouge" and they care about lineage they can find it from numerous sources. I get no kick backs...lol. HARDLY MONOPOLISTIC. "If it ain't mine it ain't real" LOL first: if you want to sell a coral. Represent it for what it is. Be honest. If you opinion is it's the same.. then state that as your opinion. Let the consumer decide. To LIE to a customer is just dumb. There is nothing elitist about making sure you always represent honestly and ethically. Nor is it elitist wo hope other people in this hobby do the same.

I stand by my argument that you naming your coral has given no benefit to any hobbyist who doesnt purchase this coral directly from you, or the "handful" of other vendors who have it (per your statement). Yes, captive bred corals do, yes, a confirmed lineage perhaps would, but neither of these are in question, nor are capable of being provided. So we go back square one.

I think you have missed my entire point. Yes, many hobbyists HAVE purchased AWE Rouge from you, and many vendors have also! What distinguishes the ones who have from the ones who havent, but claim to? If color may or may not be retained from tank to tank, how do we confirm it? Saying AWE doesnt have a monopoly on AWE Rouge is like saying that McDonalds doesnt have a monopoly on the Big Mac. Sure, I can make a burger that is just like it, or I could sell Big Macs on the side of the road, but the only way to be sure you are getting a Big Mac, is to go to McDonalds. I hope you can take an important issue from this last analogy I made. Some of the words I have used have been historically very negative, but arent always. having a monopoly on an item isnt always bad. I wish I had a monopoly on a coral.

Todd, I hope you can see that I am not attacking you, or your coral, or anything about it. I just cannot see any tangible value in your naming this coral rather than describing it. "AWE Rouge" and "A. millepora that is super red with green polyps" convey the same thing to me. Applying the name "AWE" to it, and assigning a higher value to it with that name is why the "elitist" comment came about.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

In a perfect world, how would you have things? Are all named as scientically as they were a few years ago like the ubiqutous "acropora sp." we used to see so often? Anyone notice we don't see that anymore, funny isn't it? Or to the exact definition? How would one identify and refer to one Blue Tortusa form another, without monikers evolving?

Here is the point you are missing- "Acropora sp." has NOT been identified!! The Collector or vendor was too lazy to do so. At the very least it shouldve been identified as "Genus cf. species", which at least gives the impression of "I dont know what it is, but it looks like this". However, identifying corals by scientific is far more throrough than the "popular" nicknames. Again, how does "Oregon tort" tell me any more than "aqua blue Acropora turtuosa"? Or, even furthermore, how do I know if that is an "oregon tort"? What can you do to prove to me that it is? There is nothing, aside from telling, "yep, it is. Thats what they called it when I bought it". Thats ripe for corruption.

The main problem and issue I see with those who are very anti-LE/Naming, they never state WHY or give thier opinion on HOW things should operate. Now it appears quite often in these dissussions a common thing happens: LE's are mentioned, they are denounced for "elitism", and discussion stirs some actual thought about what it means to be a reefer, eventually the assumptions get to people and the topic is lost. As it has happened here, it is always the LE crowd that is on the defensive, whereas opposed to the idea are never challenged

Are you serious? You mentioned these things in your first paragraph!! I oppose silly naming because it serves no purpose (aside from self indulgent brand ownership, price inflation, and elitism). And my suggestion is to only sue the sceintific names with the functional description! Price can be set on as whatever they want, but the assurance of "quality" that is promoted with this "brand name" is IMPOSSIBLE to guarantee without exterme cases (buying from the brand owner). If I sold you a Ferrari, you would want to be sure it was a Ferrari, and not a "Ford-rarri", right? You would want to see the proof that it is "brand" true. That functionally cannot be accomplished in coral commerce, with otu the exceptions noted previously. So, what is the benefit?

Please explain your definition of "elitism", and exactly which "person", "group", or "population" claims to have the right, entitement, or obligation as such to have power or control of another population? If power and control is important how do we fairly consider those who make a living within this "hobby" of ours. In other words, what is this power, who has it, and who doesn't have it?

By "elitism"- I mean that a faction or individual has independantly determined a specific coral in their possession to be of better "value" (for whatever reason- color, growth, durabilitity, etc.) In naming this coral, they apply a "superior identity" to it, aside from already assigned scientifically peer reviewed name. 999 out of 1000, this immediately transaltes to higher profit upon resale. Since there has been no group or "societal" acceptance, nor review, there is NO STANDARD as to what distinguishes this coral from anything else. The only person who can validate the name, is the person who created the name. I used the word "elitism", because it exercised a self appointed and regulated standard. More to this point, once the brand has been established (ie- Sunset Montipora, Pink Lemonade, etc), how do we detemine what is what, what is true, what is not? Your question to who has the power, is EXACTLY my question! It appears to me, that the brand owner has the power. That is one, self appointed determinant factor, above all else. To me, that is darned close to the defintion of "elite".

If ones does not believe that a piece may be "Limited" as there are "many other fish in the sea" and that they are the same, who may this group be holding a monopoly? Who is exactly holding "ALL the tea in China?"

I dont understand at all your question. It Joes thinks his piece may be LE, and names it "joes acro", and I have a piece that looks exactly the same, is it "joes acro", or is it "jmaneyapanda's acro"? Who has the "look-alike"? Who gets to determine what real and whats not? If it is called "joes acro", Joe gets the final say. After all, it is his brand name, isn't it? It is ABSURD to state that two corals are not the same, simply because one party ARBITRARILY named it with a nickname.

Please explain the worst case scenario you see if the current trend continous, ie: slippery slope. In other words, convince me why this is bad for the hobby or our reefing culture.

Easy, its already started. Price gouging. Conflict in ID. Fraud. Should I continue?

"Social equalism is a manifestation of equalism that seeks to end all unequal treatment of people through the elimination of capitalist competition"

Who said anything about capitalism? Who said anything about economy. If you have a gorgeous coral that I want to buy, I will pay for it. I think the elitist attitude is bad and counterproductive, because it benefits the self appointed elite, and promotes conflict and unethical behavior in trade.
However, I am not foolish enough to suggest that I, or anyone can stop it. As I have stated, I know its here, I know it is being used. I just wish it wasn't.

 

[pookstreet]

Wow, a lot of good points from both sides of the coin here. This will forever be a hot topic for debate as long as lineaged/named corals exist, but am glad to see that everyone has been cordial in presenting their views so far. I guess I'll throw in my few pesos worth.

I acquired the corals I have because I like the way they look, irregardless of lineage or names attached. With that said, I do have a lot of lineaged pieces. Why? I like the fact that eventually, they'll all color up to what they proclaim to be. They may have faded a bit when first introduced into my system, but once acclimated, they have all colored back up. That's a huge plus for me. I've had or still have aquacultured or wild pieces that have turned completely brown and still that way after over 2 years in captivity.

Another huge plus for me is the high survivability of these pieces in our closed reef systems. A few months ago, I experienced a prolonged period of STN that affected some of my Acros. I still couldn't figure out the reason or reasons. Guess what survived? All of the lineaged pieces, from small frags to colonies grown from frags. The volleyball sized colony of Cali tort grown from a frag from Shawn Bennett's original colony lost a few branches but the rest is still going strong. My 8" colony of the Green Slimer, acquired as a small frag from local reefers who have passed it around probably sinced colorful sticks were being kept successfully, died back to about a dozen corallites and has since grown about 2 inches. Just a couple of examples. The pieces that didn't make it were several aquacultured colonies.

I guess what it all boils down to for me personally is the proven success rate of these corals in a captive system, both in health and colors. And that success only comes with time in our tanks. And I am talking years, not merely months. I've had conversation with a certain someone that too many of these named corals have not proven themselves yet but simply valued based on their colors collected directly from the ocean. Sometimes, they will retain the colors and fare well health and growthwise; however, other times, they simply don't do well with increasing time in captivity.

Simply put, what works for some may not work for others. We may all have differing opinions but we all have to respect those differences.

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12650645#post12650645 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pookstreet

Simply put, what works for some may not work for others. We may all have differing opinions but we all have to respect those differences.

Thanks Kenny for input. This has been one of the best threads on such a heated topic in a long time. Thank you everyone for that.

I have some pieces in my tank that I have been able to tack down a few generations and some that I have not. Either way, the visual stimulation that each one of my corals possesses is the reason I keep them.

The whole LE is something that is different IMO. That can be expressed in another thread. I have got my fix here and I was even open minded enough to learn a few things

Perception is everything and I appreciate the feedback. I started this thread after I got an email from from a guy who wanted to do a trade for the AE Emma's Jedi mind trick monti. I guess he did not know understand that I had it in my own tank. When he told me he got it in a trade from Marko9, I blew my lid. I also received a few other PM's and emails about the insurge of confusas that are being brought in. I may of overreacted, but at least I did not post what I really wanted to say. Sometimes its nice when the RC server goes down

 

[AWExotics]

Jmaney,

I am not offended at all.

I have really dont know what you are arguing here. Are yuo arguing that lineages are provable? Or that they help in IDing? Or that captive grown corals are good?

I never sought to argue lineages are provable. I have said that hobbyists can find most named corals (often from multiple sources) with a reasonable degree of certainty of proper lineage. Reasonable being the key word. We have many photographs of most named corals to be used as tools for any diligent consumer to use to obtain this "certainty." I have stated that you must buy/trade with reputable vendors/hobbyists that YOU TRUST. I have also stated that dishonest vendors/traders will weed themselves out just as honest , reputable vendors will gain momentum and success.

I have also argued that there is a gain to consumers when corals are named, gain a following, and in return heavily propagated in our captive systems.
1. Hardiness to survive and even thrive in any healthy captive system.
2. Known aesthetically pleasing characteristics.
a. Color. May vary under different lighting intensity, spectrum, but still highly consistent. Other variables here but again I believe there is a reasonable degree of consistency
b. Growth form.... Still variables but again ..highly consistent.
3. Availability.. Individual species (or color morphs) of coral that gain popularity, will be sold/traded and often kept in the hobby for years to come.
4. Diversity.... Zoa ID has (arguably) 385 different named Zoa's. I remember Baskin Robins bragging about 31 flavors!!! (is that all they still have?) Imagine how many Acro's are named?!?!?!?!? Every shade of every color of the rainbow. Crayon's are obsolete!!!!!!!
5. "Brand Name" Some people where Gucci, Hugo Boss, etc etc for the tag and not for any other reason. While it may not be important to you... It is to some people and who are we to tell someone what is or isn't important.

The number 1 factor in buying a coral frag that you find attractive, should revolve around whether or not it is truely captive propagated to some degree. This is my opinion. My reason for this to be here is that the naming game (thus lineage) increases TRUE Captive propagation and less Chop Shop vendors. Again, I repeat.....dishonest vendors/traders will weed themselves out just as honest , reputable vendors will gain momentum and success.

I hope this clarifies what I am arguing.

I dont understand how you can say that the differences in color is so obvious, only color blind people can't ID it, and yet you're worried about "imposters". If they are so easy to tell, why and how do other people sully the name of AWE Rouge with their sales? Yet, in the same paragraph, you say that if it doesnt have the same colors in my tank, it is still the AWE Rouge. How can this be? How can it only be easily and properly identified by color, yet color is inconsequential in its ID? If you are arguing whether captive raised corals are hardier, you have no argument from me. But this thread has NOTHING to do with that.

There are many ways people can be mislead into buying an inferior product (and at times a superior) product under the wrong name. It can sully the name in small corners of this market if the product does not deliver the expected results. For a good vendor, mistakes should be rare. I manage 175 different species or colormorphs of coral frags. I can ID everyone of them to their common accepted names. It is possible to make mistakes or to mix up bags, etc etc... We are human, as humans we have learned that we must expect and ACCEPT mistakes. As Humans we must expect that some people will attempt to decive. We donot have to ACCEPT it nor should we condone it just because it really can't be proven because of the extreme complexities of variables that can be present and ever changing at any given instance in all the reef aquariums simultaneously.

I never said color is incosequential in it's ID. You present a case where a real "AWE Rouge" browns out in your tank then it is not the AWE rouge. I simply stated that it still is that coral. We just need to figure out the variables that made this happen. AWE rouge is a bad example. I have had no reports of it browning out in anyones tank when kept under acceptable conditions. But corals stress in transfer and they stress when exposed to the many changes that exist from aquarium to aquarium. Generally, with GOOD truely Captive propagated stock, these stresses are temporary.

This is NOT a way to confirm or guarantee any lineage. It is a way to be confortable with a purchase. Trust guarantees nothing. As you have made clear (and I agree with), it is unethical to trade something KNOWING it isn't as advertised. Yet, it is not unethical (although it may be improper) to *inadvertantly* trade something that was mis-IDed. If I trust my vendors completely, and they are selling me a coral labelled as AWE Rouge, does this guarantee me it is a AWE Rouge? Absolutely not. They might have accidentally or inadvertantly identified, packed, shipped the wrong coral. So my linegae is false and unverifiable. As I have been proclaiming, the only way for me to have the true confirmed lineage, is to purchase it from the brand "owner". I bought the AWE Rouge from AWE, so I know its an AWE Rouge. Anything else is heresay and is subject to accidental, and possibly unnoticed human error, at best. At worst, it is subject to fraudulent and devious mis marketing.

So am I so superior that in the case of the AWE Rouge, I could never accidentally Packed or shipped the wrong coral. Wow... thanks?!?!?!?lol Joking here.. yes I am.... We all have to accept that there are no guarantees in life. I have had real and Fake Rolex's, Oakley's, Nike, Vans', etc etc. You never really know well not unless you deal with a reputable source that you know and trust. I do believe you can read my above statements about how to have a "reasonable degree of certainty."

I stand by my argument that you naming your coral has given no benefit to any hobbyist who doesnt purchase this coral directly from you, or the "handful" of other vendors who have it (per your statement).

Read above.

Yes, captive bred corals do, yes, a confirmed lineage perhaps would, but neither of these are in question, nor are capable of being provided. So we go back square one.

ok CB Corals provide a benefit yet that issue is not in question but can not be provided (You mean, it cannot be proven to be captive bred?)

Confirmed lineage perhaps would be a benefit yet that is not in question but cannot be provide (proven)???

I am not being a wise guy. I am looking for the point.

I think you have missed my entire point. Yes, many hobbyists HAVE purchased AWE Rouge from you, and many vendors have also! What distinguishes the ones who have from the ones who havent, but claim to? If color may or may not be retained from tank to tank, how do we confirm it?

Pictures but we have been over this.. Repeat steps 1-5 and get back to me in the morning =) Joking but seriously this is repetitive.

Saying AWE doesnt have a monopoly on AWE Rouge is like saying that McDonalds doesnt have a monopoly on the Big Mac. Sure, I can make a burger that is just like it, or I could sell Big Macs on the side of the road, but the only way to be sure you are getting a Big Mac, is to go to McDonalds. I hope you can take an important issue from this last analogy I made. Some of the words I have used have been historically very negative, but arent always. having a monopoly on an item isnt always bad. I wish I had a monopoly on a coral.

I don't have a monopoly on coral. I don't have one on the AWE Rouge. Again, I get no kickbacks from other vendors who sell it. I imported a coral, Grew it, liked it, loved it, fragged it, sold it, repeated all but the importing part over and over again. Many others did the same with the same lineage (again.... NO KICKBACKS) Then it became Tyree LE Cause he acquired it, grew it liked it loved it, noticed distinguishable features in it that made it desireable and possibly uncommon, and now I am selling it more and more and more. No monopoly. I simply state.. Buyer beware be advised deception is possible so as a novel concept.... Educate yourself before you buy. Ask for pictures. Compare them to mine. Do your due dilegence before you buy.!!!!

Todd, I hope you can see that I am not attacking you, or your coral, or anything about it. I just cannot see any tangible value in your naming this coral rather than describing it. "AWE Rouge" and "A. millepora that is super red with green polyps" convey the same thing to me. Applying the name "AWE" to it, and assigning a higher value to it with that name is why the "elitist" comment came about.

First, I don't believe you are attacking me. I believe you are attacking the process at which corals are named and resold on the CP market. I have gone over alot the values gained by tracking lineage above. I could call it A. millepora that is super red with green polyps but heck that's a mouthful. NOTE: the name is really "AWE Rouge Millepora." For the record. I apply "AWE" To all coral names. My store is Aquarium World Exotics. Idonot assign a higher value to a coral just because I apply "AWE" to it. I apply a value based upon supply and demand and cost of production. So the elitist comment is quite offensive to me.

I am curious. why are you against naming corals???
Is it really lineage issues for you or is it a price issue?
Do you care about the lineage? Why or why not?
I really don't know where you stand or why. I might have missed some of your previous posts. Can you clarify? Will you?

Acropora millepora "AWE Rouge millepora"
Recent pic:

 

[jtarmitage]

Well spoken Todd. I tend to agree with your thoughts. For me, naming corals makes it easier to differentiate similar corals. There are bound to be slight variations of red with green polyp acro milleporas, and the name(which denotes lineage) makes it easy to tell one from another. Captive propogation and distinguish-ability are the true benefits to me of naming corals. If I can get a named coral from a trusted source, then I know what I'm getting and won't be surprised down the road.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Todd:

I guess we will just ahve respectively agree to disagere with one another. I believe we both are making point that the other just doent see or understand.

I believe you are correct in stating I am anti-naming. I see it serving no purpose other than "branding ownership". The coral already had a scientifically determined name, that is used for all corals in the world, yet, this one was assigned a new one- why? So that hobbyist can be assured a healthy, colorful, captive coral? Naming doesnt do any of this. I am quite sure that your corals are healthy, well adapted, and colorful when you sell them. But, really, the only suitable reason I have found from you why it is important to rename them is becasue the scientific name and description "is a mouthful".

1. Hardiness to survive and even thrive in any healthy captive system

The corals aren't hardy because you name them. You name them, because they are. The would be just as hardy if the were "Acropora millepora".

2. Known aesthetically pleasing characteristics.

Again, a quality fo the coral, not the name. I have a gorgeous Acropora chesterfieldensis in my tank. Is it any prettier if its "Jmaneyapanda Kermit Green Acro"? Absolutely not.

3. Availability.. Individual species (or color morphs) of coral that gain popularity, will be sold/traded and often kept in the hobby for years to come.

A very double edged sword without the necessary regulation. Whats a real AWE coral, and whats a "fake"? Who decides?

4. Diversity.... Zoa ID has (arguably) 385 different named Zoa's. I remember Baskin Robins bragging about 31 flavors!!! (is that all they still have?) Imagine how many Acro's are named?!?!?!?!? Every shade of every color of the rainbow. Crayon's are obsolete!!!!!!!

This is a chicken or the egg comment. Yes there are a lot of stupidly names corals in the hobby. Because thes system is used. However, corals are also absurdly prices the vast majority of the time when they have these absurd names.

5. "Brand Name" Some people where Gucci, Hugo Boss, etc etc for the tag and not for any other reason. While it may not be important to you... It is to some people and who are we to tell someone what is or isn't important.

Exactly, Brand name. To increase profits. The products of a Gucci bag and Goochy bag may not be different in the slightest- they serve the same prupose, fucntion, and often times, have the same durability, design, etc. One is simply a lot more money FOR THE NAME ONLY!!! I have a Timex watch that I have worn to work for the past 10 years.

The number 1 factor in buying a coral frag that you find attractive, should revolve around whether or not it is truely captive propagated to some degree. This is my opinion. My reason for this to be here is that the naming game (thus lineage) increases TRUE Captive propagation and less Chop Shop vendors. Again, I repeat.....dishonest vendors/traders will weed themselves out just as honest , reputable vendors will gain momentum and success.

I agree 100000%, you should buy a coral for the pleasure it gives you- NOT ITS NAME!!!! Whetrher its captive raised is important, and should absolutely be considered too, but naming it doesnt change any of these matters.

Perhaps I can make my point clear with lineage in this manner- Lets say I go to the corals for sale section here at RC. A guy has "AWE Rouge Millepora" for sale for $50 an inch. Beautiful photos of red millie with green polyps. He's got no bad feedback whatsoever. He says he bought it from fred who got it a buddy who bought it from AWE. Do I ahve niegae that this a you 10 year captive millie? Nope. It could just as likely be chopped yesterday, and mounted. There is absolutely nothing he can provide me to show that its what he says it is. It is an ARBITRARY NAME that has been applied to make the product more marketable, and make better profit.

I don't have a monopoly on coral. I don't have one on the AWE Rouge. Again, I get no kickbacks from other vendors who sell it. I imported a coral, Grew it, liked it, loved it, fragged it, sold it, repeated all but the importing part over and over again. Many others did the same with the same lineage (again.... NO KICKBACKS) Then it became Tyree LE Cause he acquired it, grew it liked it loved it, noticed distinguishable features in it that made it desireable and possibly uncommon, and now I am selling it more and more and more. No monopoly. I simply state.. Buyer beware be advised deception is possible so as a novel concept.... Educate yourself before you buy. Ask for pictures. Compare them to mine. Do your due dilegence before you buy.!!!!

You keep saying this, but you absolutely do get kickbacks. It may not be a check or cash in you pocket, but it translates to it. Brand recognition is a kickback. You have tattooed the name of your business on a coral!! So every time it is merely mentioned, you get free advertisement! That is the function of brand recognition and ownership! Its like arguing that trademarks dont serve any benefit. C'mon. You have designated your company as the owner and "creator" of this coral, and from here on out, you will be tied to it. But you dont get any benefit from that?!!

First, I don't believe you are attacking me. I believe you are attacking the process at which corals are named and resold on the CP market. I have gone over alot the values gained by tracking lineage above. I could call it A. millepora that is super red with green polyps but heck that's a mouthful. NOTE: the name is really "AWE Rouge Millepora." For the record. I apply "AWE" To all coral names. My store is Aquarium World Exotics. Idonot assign a higher value to a coral just because I apply "AWE" to it. I apply a value based upon supply and demand and cost of production. So the elitist comment is quite offensive to me.

Here is the defintion of "elitism" I got from dictionary.com: "consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group" Would you not consider you coral a select or favored group? You state you assign cost based on supply and demand- so be it. My issue with that is that by naming your coral with your unique name, and proclaiming it different and special, you has immediately, and biasedly, dramatcally reduced the supply! The supply and demand can and should only be determined by the mass, not the individual.

He is me, in a nutshell (at least on this topic!!)-

I do strongly opposed the "clique" popular nicknames that are given to corals because they only serve to benefit the creator of the name. It does NOT imply any degree of quality any more than the simple description would, they are grossly and haphazardly identified and categorized as different, and there is no feasible and foolproof way to confirm any generational progress.

What is the difference between "AWE Rouge Millepora", and "Acropora millepora that is very red with green polyps- been in my collection for 10 years"? What is the diffrence between a "Cali tort", and a "Miyagi Tort", that the buyer wouldnt see when purchasing? After all, we both insist that buyers go to a trusted vendors, closely examine photos, and only buy what we beleive to be captive corals which we like the look of. Using these criterion, we should be able to look at a "Acropora tortuosa- bright blue", and decide if it should be in our tank. The whole naming craze has done nothing for the hobby but create a status symbol, inflate the prices, and inflates egos. Names do not make a coral hardier, easier to identify (in fact, I believe it makes it harder), more available, more worthwhile. They simply gratify someone with better marketing,a nd therefore, better profit.

Lets put it this way. I can make two frags of the same coral- Montipora danaem "superman". Post one as "Superman Monti", and one as Montipora danae- see which sells first (and likely for more money). They are the same corals, but the name has taken on an elite status and demand.

By the way, that coral is gorgeous. I really do appreciate you efforts in this conversation. I feel you intentions, morals, and motivations are pretty spot on exemplary. I simply feel that some of the steps you are taking in you business model for coral commerce are counterproduct to the community as a whole, while they are surely bebenficial to your company in specific. but, as I have stated numerous times, I know this system is here, and in use, and seems to be the way it is progressing. I just see a cataclysm on the horizon, when the "names" have been mutated, altered, misused, misunderstood, nonregulated, misapplied, and abused so much, that they will not have meaning anymore. Someone, at some piont (if they havent already), will sell a coral as "Rouge millepora", because there is no provable lineages, nor standardized peer reviewed identifications (besides the arguable coloration).

 

[texreefer]

They all came from the ocean,, I have pretty ones

 

[BradR]

I just care what it looks like.

 

[kdblove_99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12624516#post12624516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
Just like the two possible answers to this, you can categorize reefers into two types. You’re either a ‘collector’ or ‘non-collector’. Occasionally, you get a non-collector on a ‘high horse’, who abolishes LE/coral naming, which is fine. It doesn’t change much of anything. The great thing is that ‘collectors’ seem to be able to respect others opinions and just continue to do what they themselves, enjoy. It’s been that way for over 130 years, ever since the first collectible cigarette cards began to circulate.

We all collect for various reasons, but I will only mention a couple of my own:

-Strong advocate for tank-raised corals. I’m very proud to say that no corals in my tank are less than 2 generations removed from a wild colony. Even more proud that all my corals are grown from tank-raised frags.

-Prolongs the ‘upgrade’. Since I limit myself to collectibles, I avoid becoming overstocked too quickly. Some might see it as a bad thing, since they’re always looking for that next big tank Whereas, I’m always looking out for the slowest growing SPS in the biz.

-Tightens my ‘Circle of Reef Friends’. This is an unfortunate but necessary reason to collect for me. The advancement of reefkeeping means more shady characters and dirty hands are in the fold. In the fear of getting ‘fakes’ or ‘pest-infested’ corals, where either problem can drive you away or towards zoos and LPS, I now have a very short list of people I will accept coral from

I believe the last one is the issue that this thread was meant to address.

Mark,

I understand your need to pose this question. It’s unfortunate about the circumstance surrounding the ‘AE’ coral in question. It does ruin the collectibility for enthusiasts.

As a former owner of ‘Hammer Pants’ during my sophomore year of high school, I learned very early not to follow trends. ‘Influencer Marketing’ is being used more now than ever before. It’s not illegal for a vendor to reuse a name on a completely different coral, and make a quick buck off of a trend (i.e. Aussie Corals). In this economy, I can’t blame them. If you choose to be a collector, you just need to be smart about it. Do some due diligence, and verify lineage as best you can.

Just grin and bear it, Mark…it’s only a hobby

-Karl

karl,

You should post more. I really enjoy your take on things.

 

[dots]

Thanks for the insights, opinions, and thoughts guys. I suppose my own curosity stems from why those who do not care for such things as LEs or Lineage feel as strongly on this issue.

As mentioned, these thread tend to be a "beartrap" or "landmine" thread in which you are either caught up in them, or they blow up in your face, which makes me wonder why it is such a hotbutton issue these days.

A while back, I was accused of having a "designer" tank, which sparked my interest in this topic and how this and other labels such as "elitist" have been tossed around, how the SPS culture has/is changing, and really....where did this come from?

The way I see it, those who are truly passonate for this, will be around for some time to come. Those into keeping SPS for just the money, lack the deditcation, or patience for this will just fade away with time......

To tell you the truth, I consider large colonies the real LE's as they require hard work, determination, and commitment to sustain that long.....regardless what it is......

Cheers
:beer:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12660325#post12660325 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Thanks for the insights, opinions, and thoughts guys. I suppose my own curosity stems from why those who do not care for such things as LEs or Lineage feel as strongly on this issue.

As mentioned, these thread tend to be a "beartrap" or "landmine" thread in which you are either caught up in them, or they blow up in your face, which makes me wonder why it is such a hotbutton issue these days.

A while back, I was accused of having a "designer" tank, which sparked my interest in this topic and how this and other labels such as "elitist" have been tossed around, how the SPS culture has/is changing, and really....where did this come from?

The way I see it, those who are truly passonate for this, will be around for some time to come. Those into keeping SPS for just the money, lack the deditcation, or patience for this will just fade away with time......

To tell you the truth, I consider large colonies the real LE's as they require hard work, determination, and commitment to sustain that long.....regardless what it is......

Cheers
:beer:

Dots,
I appreciate your insight. I fear you may be taking comments, such as mine, out of context. I do not oppose lineage, captive bred, or even rare or "LE" pieces (even though I despise that term). My point in this whole matter is that people believe that providing a silly "brand name" to coral will somehow track and decipher its history and lineage, and that if it has a "name" is is captive bred and healthy F10 from the wild. We know this to be false. How many wild caught Superman Montis float around? While I absolutely strive for my tank to be captive cultured pieces, the bottom line truth of thge matter is there is no absolute way for me to know if it is or not!! Because there is no way to confirm any of this ( without extreme cases). Lineages are all word of mouth, because there is no monitoring of the practice. Naming corals to specifically assign lineage is merely trying to mask the fact that lineage cant be proven.

Regarding my elitist comment, I did pick my words very carefully. The reason it came up is because of many of the behaviors and mannerisms that accompany this LE and naming craze. For example, if LE and lineaged corals are all about captive raising, and durability in the aquarium, what is a look-alike? How can a coral that very well may have the same durability and same history in captivity, and, by description, look just like the "original" be decried as if it is some leporous creature? They are bashed as if the corals themselves are being deceptive! Only the true, birth rite coral can bear the name, and all the others are imposters! That screams of elitism. And certainly not to pick out individuals, but Karl Unarce himself made a statement that reflects my opinion:

The advancement of reefkeeping means more shady characters and dirty hands are in the fold. In the fear of getting ‘fakes’ or ‘pest-infested’ corals, where either problem can drive you away or towards zoos and LPS, I now have a very short list of people I will accept coral from

So, only certain people are capable of providing these healthy and specific corals? I am sorry, but that is also elitism. Let me also say, I understand what Karl is saying and appreciate his concern and preservation for his system, but I feel statments like this reflect the current state of coral naming/trading/lineaging, and I would love to see it changed. I receive many corals from many different poeple. And I inspect and treat my corals before they go in my display. And I buy them because they appear to be captive propogation and visually appeal to me. This resolves all the issue that were mentioned, and don't exclude ANYONE from my potential vendor list.

Finally, let me take on that dreaded term "LE". It stands for Limted Edition, right? How can something that is NAMED a LIMTED EDITION not be elitist? I have a Limited Edition version of a CD that not many nother people have. In as much, I have an elite piece of history. The CD has more value and importance than others. The big difference between this CD and corals, is that this limited edition can be proven, confirmed, and traced to be legitimate. There is a governing premise to its "limited" status. However, If I just claimed it was limited, but couldnt go beyond that besides my word, who would be interested? Once over once more, when did being elite become bad? I wish I were consider one of the elite in this hobby!

I hope I have made my point clearer. I certainly do not belive any bear traps or similar have been ;laid, and feel I have gone above and beyond to express in detail my concerns and objections. Let me know if I havent made anything clera. Thanks.

 

[kb27973]

Please don't take this wrong jmaneyapanda, I just want to join in the fun. If I follow your reasoning you agree that some corals should be worth more than others because they are just plain cool (Sunset, Superman...), the problem comes in when trying to prove it is the real deal right? Well, there is a reason I won't buy a Rolex out of a guys trunk... Common sense. I mean a little of the responsibility has to fall on the buyer don't you think? Caveat Emptor. Fakes are everywhere.

Ken

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12665424#post12665424 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kb27973
Please don't take this wrong jmaneyapanda, I just want to join in the fun. If I follow your reasoning you agree that some corals should be worth more than others because they are just plain cool (Sunset, Superman...), the problem comes in when trying to prove it is the real deal right? Well, there is a reason I won't buy a Rolex out of a guys trunk... Common sense. I mean a little of the responsibility has to fall on the buyer don't you think? Caveat Emptor. Fakes are everywhere.

Ken

Ken:

I dont think you're getting my point. What is a "fake"? If the coral is captive bred, hardy, and looks like a "XXX" coral, why is it a fake? And why is that bad?

I agree, dont buy a rolex out of a guys trunk. You can go to the jeweler and get a Rolex that has all the proper documentation and registration to be a genuine Rolex. Where do we go for this for a "Tyree Pink Lemonade"? Do we have to go to Tyree? Otherwise, where is the assurance that it is real? Aren't we then just "buying it our of peoples trunks", essentially? No guarantee, no paperwork, no nothing, except looking at it, and a verbal statement that "its real".

Once again, my point is that lineages are literally unprovable in 99% of cases, and in the provable cases, it involves quite extreme lengths and measures. Besides, if I was told the only way to get a genuine Rolex is to buy it from the Rolex dealer, I would call that an elitist suggestion also, would you agree?

 

[mpoletti]

jmaneyapanda- I see you point and you are definitely sticking to your guns.

Just curious, What is so wrong being an elitist?

 

[Oldude]

Real deal fancy names and LE corals are often only sustainable for a short time due to the nature of the business. There are always people fragging what they bought or for another example, if a supplier in Indonesia sees that a certain coral is all the rage in North America then they get some of that species that looks as close as possible and mass produce it via mariculture. Also, there is no guarantee the designer coral from any elite USA vendor will look the same in my tank anyway. Reticulate evolution can cause it to change enough that one may not even recognize it as what it was claimed to be other than that specific species. There are just too many variables. For example I have 3 varieties of a.tortousa in my tank from three completely different sources that are thousands of miles a part. In my tank they pretty much all look the same whether it is the "Solomon Island tort" that I paid way too much for or the more common "Cali tort," it's hard to tell them apart.

 

[craiglanda]

Oldude that is a great point! Just as an example to back that up...I have a nice sized colony of what i believe to be A. Kimbeensis. I fragged a few pieces to give to some buddies in my local reef club. In my tank it is pink bodied with light blue tips and green dots at the very tips. In one of my friends tanks it turned green bodied with purple tips. In another one of my friends tank it turned solid purple. The only color that remained constant was the green polyps.

 

[dots]

Verification is one of the most "tricky" and "sticky" things to solve, and is getting the "cart before the horse" and am still trying to gauge motive and value of the concept, the popular opinion of it and the portion who agree/disagree, and the reasons why those who disagree do. Getting caught up in the finer points, that are largely based on these answers, is going to an exercise of agreeing to disagree.

In this root cause analysis, I am trying to determine what motivates people and what they value. The mechanics of it and debate the finer points is for lack of better words, small potatoes.

jmaneyapanda,
I have gained a great respect for you here, not so much for what you have said, but that you have said so with much decisivness.
However what you have said overtly, goes hand in hand with something else......your passion for the hobby. This is what I am after.

I spoke of this passion early in the thread, and I don't expect everyone to have this. This is understandable because people don't really value things until they put a little time and energy into something.

This passion that I speak of could probably be best described as emotional investment, which is why these threads are such "beartraps" and "landmines", peoples have a hard time expressing that because sometimes they are unaware, lack the ability to comunicate it, or are fearfull of social rejection, humilation or being "weak'.

Its this passion in which people need to be honest about, both with themselves and each other to understand not the question at face value: "Is lineage important to you?"........but "why?"

To get people to respond, truthfully, putting themselves out there is next to impossible to do. Call me silly, but shouldn't those claiming to be "obsessed" about SPS have a certain degree of passion and regard for things?

I would find it hard to believe that after 15 years, as it says on your signature, that you don't have a sense of pride, responsibilty, and respect for this aspect of the hobby?

My friend Mark says some of the most profound things in one sentence, which takes me often paragraphs said recently, "I collect the corals, as well as stories."

This sentence shows the intangible worth of certain pieces, and shows WHY lineage is important because as what I believe Karl is really speaking of for restricting his "circcle" is the "garuntee" that it is what one says, around a sense of community, trust, and sounding as cliche as it mean maybe a little bit of honor. His has been restricted to those who have shown that consistenly over time. That is how I have interpreted this statement. Its a reaction to all of the BS that has come along.

To say, a coral that has no connection to these things, to most is trivial and non important. To me its fraud.

I will pay top dollar for a piece because of that, not because it merely looks the same, but for this intrinsic value and being part of something bigger, which certificates and testing can't prove.

Call me stupid, but I would really like to think there is more to this than pretty colors and "what bulb to use", but perhaps I am little too wrapped up.

Values and Motives are at the center of this issue in what may describe those who do value lineage as conisours perhaps?

Though, we may have grown to big for such simple things and is just too "touchy feely" and that we are in a time of tangible worth.



Like I said, perhaps the original and still current

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12654763#post12654763 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AWExotics
Jmaney,

I never said color is incosequential in it's ID. You present a case where a real "AWE Rouge" browns out in your tank then it is not the AWE rouge. I simply stated that it still is that coral. We just need to figure out the variables that made this happen.

But if it browns out, how do I know that it is an AWE Rouge? How do I know I didn't get the wrong coral? How do I know that I did get the wrong coral?

I agree with Jmaneypanda here. The name doesn't give you any information.

 

[GSMguy]

Timex is not really a "knock off".....

if you think Gucci and Goochy use the same quality leather you would be mistaken, even in florence where they have he best fakes you can definitely tell the difference when placed next to the "real" stuff.

the point is with Gucci you know what you get, with Goochy you might have rat hair lined horse. so yes your right the only way to get be sure you get a tyree coral is to buy from tyree.

naming a coral allows it to be traded and traced, the name does give you Info, jmanjyapanda has some good points i promise i can tell a real rolex from a fake, but i can not tell a Tyree ponape from any other ponape when grown under the same conditions and in most cases everybody's tanks have different conditions so that variable confuses more. With products fakes are easy with corals they are not really fakes, just that the lineage is not traceable.