Does lineage matter to you?

[jmaneyapanda]

Ive said this before, so I'll "badger" with it again!

Lineages serve a purpose and are valuable for a number of reasons. But (more than likely) 99 out of 100, the lineage is baseless. There is no certification, no policing, no consolidation of any lineage branding. I can offer for sale a Tyree LE Acropora whatsamajigger, and someone can buy it. Dio they ahve lineage? Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to determine, unless you buy it from the "owner" of the brand. If I buy athat same acro from Tyree, it has current, discernable lineage. If I buy it from Joe, who (SUPPOSEDLY) bought it from Tyree, I am basing it on his word and trust. A VERY weak link in the chain.

The more pertinent and valuable question should be, "What does lineage mean?" Does it mean color, growth pattern, price, or actual scientific name and origin?

 

[jtarmitage]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12629567#post12629567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Let's separate some issues here....

1) Lineage or not - personal preference

2) LE or not - personal preference

3) Calling a coral something its not to increase profits - ethical issue..... Like an earlier poster, there are tons of maricultured sps that are coming in that look like coral xyz (whatever lineage or LE status). It's happening. I don't think its to call it a M. undata, but to call it a Tyree LE Undata is unethical.... Caveat emptor....

Now that is a perfect way to sum up my feelings. Thank you for the well defined breakdown.:thumbsup:

 

[Oldude]

It's interesting to read all these different comments. I would fill my tank with a lot "designer" corals if I could but being in Canada makes that very difficult so I have to go with what I think will have potential or pieces from "known" quality colonies. Now that said, I think a reef needs the right mix of colors, shades, shapes & sizes to look right and most natural. I've seen some tanks where they had only brightly colored corals that are fairly close in size which is great but unless displayed correctly to me it looks more like a "fruit stand" than a reef. I love the look of a "rainbow" reef which is what I strive for myself but it has to be done right and there is more to it than just having only "brand name" corals. Perhaps a little off topic but an often overlooked point in my opinion is "coralscape." People talk about "aquascape" but once it's done and things start to mature, what's important for me is the "coralscape". Where should certain colonies be placed so that their many shapes, colors & sizes will compliment each other and be most pleasing to the eye? Like I said I prefer a mix.

 

[mpoletti]

Believe me Greg, if you were in the states, I would be trading with you and Dave

 

[mcliffy2]

I think if a coral looks good it looks good. Im lucky enough to have local reefers I can get most of my frags from so I can see what the mother colony looks like. If I couldnt do this, I could see more reason to pay for names. That said, a lot of people here will sell the lineage corals for non-lineage prices. I paid $15 for my Oregon tort, $15 for my ORA tort, $20 for my candlelight, $25 each for my tyree flower petal and tyree undata. I plan to sell these for similar prices when it comes time for me to frag.

 

[DrDNA]

Some great discussions here! Having only recently gotten into SPS (within the last year), I am one of those who tries to stick with the "named" corals and only buy from reputable, usually local, sources like Yourreef, Atlantis, and a handful of local reefers. This is mainly to "get the real thing" and more importantly a healthy, pest-free frag. After trying a few wild colonies that either changed color or died, I have had a lot better success with the genuine named pieces.

Jeremy raised an interesting question about DNA testing of frags (sorry, just gotta chime in ). I have thought about this too, and it seems to me that you should be able to separate species (both via DNA and morphology) and also identify frags or mini-colonies from the same original colony that arose from a unique sexually-produced larvae. For example, if indeed the OR tort, Cali tort, ORA tort, and Becker's tort are all Acropora tortuosa (I'm not positive on this, so I apologize if I mixed these up), then DNA testing could in theory identify them all as A. tortuosa and also back to the original colony. This because there are genetic differences between species but also between sexually produced (not clonal) individuals of the same species. It would require a lot of intial baseline testing, but in theory, it should be doable. We already do something similar to this for breed verification and parentage in dogs, for example, although that is only one species.

 

[Maximus]

Yes.

 

[Canarygirl]

For me, knowling the lineage is mostly important so that I can learn what the potential is for that coral's appearance in my system. Usually in my system I don't get to see them at their potential, but I like knowing what that could be, if only I could all my parameters perfectly tweaked.

and of course the resale value of a named coral is better too

 

[Joe Kelley]

I care very much.
Thank you Mark for a great topic.

Joe

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12633149#post12633149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Joe Kelley
I care very much.
Thank you Mark for a great topic.

Joe

Thanks Joe. I have recieved more than a dozen PM's about this thread.

BTW, I have the becker tort that came up north from your tank

 

[Maximus]

Ahh, I still remember the day I paid Joe a visit in Hollywood. His tank was a 180g I believe, with a 200g refugium. I was awestruck to say the least. Have you set up another tank, Joe?

 

[Joe Kelley]

Mark, it is not surprising. With a hobby like this, there are so many sub hobbies inside of it that there will be a focus of interest for just about anyone. Captive breeding and conservation will always spawn a lively discussion
I am so glad you have the old Becker Tort up there. I wish all my corals were spread out in a data base sort of way so I'd have a chance an them again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12633170#post12633170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
Thanks Joe. I have recieved more than a dozen PM's about this thread.

BTW, I have the becker tort that came up north from your tank

I remember you too Maximus and look forward to seeing you again! I will have another tank soon I hope. I sure miss having these awesome animals in my home and meeting great people trading and selling/buying. Captive breeding and lineage are foremost of my interests in keeping live corals. So many great things said in this thread so far, I especially like what Greg had to say about placement and caregiver interaction, coralscaping. Reminds me of something Alf Nilsen might say.

Joe

 

[aurora]

In reading further into this thread, I realized that the original question posed is somewhat misleading in that the term "lineage" means different things to different reefers and therefore the varying response.

The first thing that came to mind for me when "lineage" is mentioned is the coral naming craze that is going on. The naming of a coral in the past means that it's been successfully propagated by several hobbyist with good color retention from tank to tank and therefore desirable and fetch a higher price than your typical frag. However, lately vendors/sellers have realized this and started slapping names on corals that may or may not be hardy or colorful. However, by slapping a name on a frag means that it could be charged quite a bit more since it's now a Brand with instantaneous "lineage" that is assumed. Does this matter to me?...No, and it actually will turn me off a coral. However, it may matter to "collectors" or new hobbyists who don't have the experience of identifying a coral and it's possible color variation. They see a pic of something that may or may not be photoshopped and assumed from the "Brand" that the frag has a long successful track record, fall into the trap of buying an overpriced frag that may or may not look good in their tank or survive.

Now, if you take "lineage" to mean that you know for sure a frag has been through several generation of propagation and have good color retention in different tanks with slightly different invironments, then...Yes, it matters. Any experienced SPS reefer will tell you the best corals are the ones that came out of someone else's tank since they have a high likelihood of retaining their color and stay alive in your tank. The reason is these same reefers, myself included, probably have blown a few hundred...if not thousand...buckaroos early in the hobby on wild colonies that look really good when they come in from the wild then either die, brown out, or lose color in captivity.

Therefore, when you respond, please identify which type of lineage you are talking about...then you'll probably realize that the opinions do not vary that much.

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12634503#post12634503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aurora
In reading further into this thread, I realized that the original question posed is somewhat misleading in that the term "lineage" means different things to different reefers and therefore the varying response.


Therefore, when you respond, please identify which type of lineage you are talking about...then you'll probably realize that the opinions do not vary that much.

Aurora- Thanks for your input and your second post. When I brought up lineage, I meant exactly what this thread is. I love the propagation and networking of beautiful specimens and the crazed enthusiasts that share my like interests.

I do not believe all named pieces are worth anything; sometimes it is just a name. But then you take a coral like the orenji lets say. Karl has what I would call the mother colony. He got it from Sang who got it from Mike. I know James has a nice piece as well. That is what I like about lineage. I know all of these people by name.

I do not believe that naming a coral two weeks out of the wholesaler is worth anything to me but a few dollars in potential. Let me see to how it reacts in our contained ecosystems and we'll talk.

So to clarify, lineage is way more than just a named coral. It is about a piece that has brought two hobbyist together to further each of their love for our hobby. Not everyone will or need to feel the same way I do, but every time I look at my corals that have been passes around among my circle of friend, I am reminded of the friendships I have built and the success that we as SPS's have had in this hobby.

Too many times, we as humans, have a predetemined notion to assert judgements because of our past personal experiences. I am just glad that people allowing this thread to turn into what it has.

 

[vvolfe1]

I totaly agree with you aurora. Lineage does mean two different things.

To me the named lineage corals really do not matter. They are very nice but with the amount of named corals out there I wonder at times if some people just don't dip the tips of the coral in their tanks of holy water and anoint them with a name. I do see why so many like them some are very pretty. I just can not justify the paying the price for them.
I do care about the actual lineage of my corals though to a degree. Who has had them for how long they have been in captivity and if the colors are holding is very meaningful.

I probably feel this way because the first named coral I got I gave away to be saved by a more experienced reefer. He has had a very hard time with the coral too. I now believe that I got a frag from a wild colony that was an excellent look a like.

 

[J.R.L.]

it doesnt matter to me until im paying top dollar....if im paying $60 + for an SPS frag i wanna be sure its worth it and knowing a little bit about it goes a long way...not to mention it helps in knowing the exact species name; not just a generalized "acro" and you could then help find the proper condition for it etc.

 

[mpoletti]

J.R.L.- That is one sweet avatar

 

[J.R.L.]

hehe thanks

 

[dots]

I think pedigree is the other definition perhaps you guys are referring to, as in "whats in a name" or assuming the value is greater solely because it is attached to a paticular person or store many elude to when asking the justification for the demand or "value" of some pieces that are otherwise "common".

Lineage, to further expand on Marks previous statement, to me would be the ability to connect your piece back as far as possible through the generations, which at some point will hopefully prove this pedigree. I have found this to be a fun detective mystery, again that is sometime not easily obtained adding to the SPS challenge factor.

This goes without saying this involves a degree of trust, forcing you to develop your network and obtaining pieces from known sources you trust and respect. It takes time to establish this and friendships are formed because of this, and the "instant gradification" factor is diminished. Growing up, I remember when I had to work for something, I valued it much more.

Unfortunatly this is often difficult when solely buying online or through retail and the search ends there.

With regards to researching, RC is a fabulous tool for documentation of the frags you buy, and provides a degree of "proof" in verification. If buying a piece and you are interested in such, I suggest making sure that is documented in that thread rather than privately pm'ing someone. By posting one, a degree of general consensus to the question of "is it a fake?" can be resolved as their are some SPSers that have eagle eyes and know the "Real Deal" from the fake.

A way this can benifit you by doing so, if someone is interested in the piece or obtaining information about how "common" or "circulated" it is, this strategy may be used.

Perhaps if this was done commonly, there would be less of those "lost" corals today.

A lot of it comes down to trust, your word, and reputation within the community........with this at stake, people may reconsider less than ethical practices for the "quick" buck.

Yes, there is a large degree of faith and trust in each other involved, but I don't think thats a terrible thing to have and helps retain that "Old Skool" feel to things, making one feel pretty good about having the moniker "SPS Snob"

And I know its different for someone in CA where the lineage tree is often short compared to those in other parts of the country and is dificult to participate in or place value into.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12635478#post12635478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots

A lot of it comes down to trust, your word, and reputation within the community........with this at stake, people may reconsider less than ethical practices for the "quick" buck.

Yes, there is a large degree of faith and trust in each other involved, but I don't think thats a terrible thing to have and helps retain that "Old Skool" feel to things, making one feel pretty good about having the moniker "SPS Snob"

Dots, I would argue that it ALL comes down to trust, your word, etc. With every other type of organism that has the "pedigree" (great word, btw), or "lineage", it is also documented by some regulatory borad/committee/agency. Except, with corals, tehre is nothing. Live Aquaria sends a certificate with all of their captive bred corals, but what does this mean? There is no picture, no ID, nothing but a number. Furthermore, withy the nature of SPS, where flow, lighting, water parameters, etc. can play the MASSIVELY influential role into determine the gross functional morphology of the coral, it would be a moot point to attempt these steps anyway. Finally, it is foolhardy to believe that all corals could be identified by a photo. Surely some can, and many can take an educated guess, but for many, only skeletal structure is the tell tale ID.

As it stands right now, you are absolutely correct in assessing that the faith and trust in "established old school" reefers and names is prevalent. However, this is elitism. To say that I, or anyone else, cannot conduct trade in these corals (even if they are exactly what they are claiming to be) is innappropriate. You say it is fun, and enjoyable to "detective" out the corals. I say it is discriminatory and biased to say the my corals are automatically dismissed as potentials because my name is not XXXX, or I do not live in California.

All my comments are, of course, hypothetical, and I certainly am not angry or upset by any of this converstaion. I am actually quite enjoying it.