Does lineage matter to you?

[AWExotics]

Great Thread...

Some of you know me from the So Cal Frag swaps and now from the CFM's that are done here on the West Coast. Being a vendor, I find this conversation extremely interesting.

As a vendor, I try to credit the proper lineage of any coral I receive from a hobbyist or another vendor. I do what I can to confirm it and unless I know the person is honest I will not try to ever pass of a coral as one type or another just on their word alone.

I do name my corals and have begun doing that with all the corals I am working with. I always name mine with "AWE" before the name.

I don't feel that lineage is important unless you plan to sell or trade frags. Proper credit should be given and lineage tracked. I have had people buy corals from me at swaps only to e-mail me back that thye had that coral. In these cases they even bought that coral before under the SAME name. Other people have also mentioned that they had the identical coral (which they bought under a different name) from a vendor who originally got the piece from me. To be fair to the customers, we vendors should do our best to keep track of the lineage.

The most important factor, IMO, is that we buy CAPTIVE PROPAGATED corals. Corals grown in aquariums under typical aquarium Reef Lighting. These corals are by far the hardiest specimens any reefer can choose to buy.

We vendors need to be responsible and market our corals as what they are. I try to always tell people how long I have had a coral, and how much it has grown in my captive system. My goal is to get every coral frag I sell to be as close to 100% captive grown as I possibly can. The process takes time and the energy, water, salt, and supplements cost me more than purchasing the coral generally does.

Whether you are buying $150 Purple Monster's or the latest Tyree LE (like my AWE Rouge) the most important factor should be Aesthetic appeal and hardiness of the animal ( generally: the longer they are kept in captivity the hardier they are and more consistent their aesthetic appeal)

As far as pricing, corals will always be priced based partially on supply and demand and partially on "production Cost." I hear alot of reefers talk about how expensive the hobby is. The "Business" is far more expensive.

Once again ... great thread!!!

 

[AWExotics]

dbl post

 

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12636182#post12636182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
To say that I, or anyone else, cannot conduct trade in these corals (even if they are exactly what they are claiming to be) is innappropriate. You say it is fun, and enjoyable to "detective" out the corals. I say it is discriminatory and biased to say the my corals are automatically dismissed as potentials because my name is not XXXX, or I do not live in California.

I think your misunderstood what I was saying, and is exactly the opposite I am saying.

I am trying to show why those who do care for lineage and explain the reasons why I enjoy it from my personal experience.

It would be a very elitist point of view to say that you or anyone else could not, (should not), do as such, but I did not, I was commenting on the fact that I recognize my ability to participate in such could be easier, therefor acknowleging that this may not be as easy or accessible for everyone to participate in and can see this to be a niche within the hobby. Trying to say, that just as I don't expect people to care or document lineage on every piece in the hobby, that those who do share this interest, are not discounted.

With these thoughts in mind, this in my point in explaining WHY it is important to me and others, to help explain to others that it means more that the stereotypical shallow motivations it seems in doing so. Which I believe I have.

I have made no commentary on how LE's should be selected, and that xxx is better than xyz. That is another issue, and for the sake of this conversation, know opening that up will cause us to loose focus even farther.

I'm all about finding middle ground in all of these issues, and comming up with unique solutions in consideration to everyones interests.

Yes, the whole naming thing is messed up but like it or not, the LE thing and naming is now a part of the hobby, so ingrained into the industry and marketing, even if I wanted to get rid of the concept, would be impossible to do. I believe there is room for all types of collecting or ways people can enjoy SPS, and these debates/issues/problems could be considered gowing pains that will help normalize things eventually. I hope we can do it in a way that will not deviate so far from the orgins of the hobby, we do not have a connection with it anymore.

What I am against are absolutes. I don't think everything should be named, and quite frankly just a small percentage. The rest should be regarded otherwise. Again, I do have ideas for solving these issues but this is a thread on lineage and I have already deviated more than I would like, but out of respect for our points of view, I have done so.

Balance is key, we need to find that balance and that is what is going on before your very eyes as our reefing culture develops further.

Just as it would be wrong for one to demand all pieces are for now are named, overpriced, and "dumbed down" with catchy names........it would be just the same to demand LE's be eliminated with no regard to your fellow reefers.

I have tried very hard to show my interest in solving such problems, my point of view and own personal reasons why, all the while trying to dissway those "elitist" stereotypes you are suggesting. Which I find very perplexing, unless this is a red herring, ad hominem, or devils advocate tactic?

I would really like to get back on subject and hear more of what you think. After all, without your thoughts I can not take them into consideration.

That is afterall, the point of all this right?

 

[dots]

Thanks for the comments Todd, (AWExotics), finding a way to solve the concerns of the collectors while addressing your priorities as a buisiness owner, (such as time and insentive to get behind anything), has been something I have been working on to solve, as buy in from retailers like yourself will be key in doing so.

Again, I have an idea and could quite possibly be profitible in terms of certification/verification of lineage for collectors.

I wasn't kidding when I said I have thought a lot about this subject and like solving problems.......Engineers can be like that I guess.

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12640322#post12640322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AWExotics
Great Thread...

Some of you know me from the So Cal Frag swaps and now from the CFM's that are done here on the West Coast. Being a vendor, I find this conversation extremely interesting.

As a vendor, I try to credit the proper lineage of any coral I receive from a hobbyist or another vendor. I do what I can to confirm it and unless I know the person is honest I will not try to ever pass of a coral as one type or another just on their word alone.

I do name my corals and have begun doing that with all the corals I am working with. I always name mine with "AWE" before the name.

I don't feel that lineage is important unless you plan to sell or trade frags. Proper credit should be given and lineage tracked. I have had people buy corals from me at swaps only to e-mail me back that thye had that coral. In these cases they even bought that coral before under the SAME name. Other people have also mentioned that they had the identical coral (which they bought under a different name) from a vendor who originally got the piece from me. To be fair to the customers, we vendors should do our best to keep track of the lineage.

The most important factor, IMO, is that we buy CAPTIVE PROPAGATED corals. Corals grown in aquariums under typical aquarium Reef Lighting. These corals are by far the hardiest specimens any reefer can choose to buy.

We vendors need to be responsible and market our corals as what they are. I try to always tell people how long I have had a coral, and how much it has grown in my captive system. My goal is to get every coral frag I sell to be as close to 100% captive grown as I possibly can. The process takes time and the energy, water, salt, and supplements cost me more than purchasing the coral generally does.

Whether you are buying $150 Purple Monster's or the latest Tyree LE (like my AWE Rouge) the most important factor should be Aesthetic appeal and hardiness of the animal ( generally: the longer they are kept in captivity the hardier they are and more consistent their aesthetic appeal)

As far as pricing, corals will always be priced based partially on supply and demand and partially on "production Cost." I hear alot of reefers talk about how expensive the hobby is. The "Business" is far more expensive.

Once again ... great thread!!!

What's up Todd?
Sorry I missed you this year at bacfm, but the yellow tipped gem, lemon lime loisette and rouge milli that I got from you last yeart are all banging pieces in my tank. One of these days I would like for you to PM or email pics of the colonys because they are growing out and I think the lemon lime may be an austera with that sweet yellow rim around the coralites and a few baby blue polyps. I still have no idea what species the yellow tipped gem is. I thought it was a nasuta but it has really started to table. It is about 5-6 inches now.

 

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12642002#post12642002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
One of these days I would like for you to PM or email pics of the colonys because they are growing out and I think the lemon lime may be an austera with that sweet yellow rim around the coralites and a few baby blue polyps. I still have no idea what species the yellow tipped gem is. I thought it was a nasuta but it has really started to table. It is about 5-6 inches now.

Now thats what I am talking about!!!! 5 minutes ago, I had no idea where this came from and who gets the credit for such an amazing piece.

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12642111#post12642111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Now thats what I am talking about!!!! 5 minutes ago, I had no idea where this came from.

That was a different one that I had given you. I got that piece from Atlantis. I gave you and Tim a piece and your guys pieces are doing much better than mine Mine greened out in the tank switch and is still trying to recover. I will show you the one from Todd the next time you are over.

 

[dots]

I knew that..........yeah........right.........I knew that.

I was just trying to show......er......that......um.......ugh.......I do have pieces that I just think are pretty and have no idea where they came from.......yeah that was it.

I could have swore that was the piece you were talking about by the description....I am starting to get used to the taste of my own foot......as much as its been in my mouth lately.

 

[AWExotics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12642002#post12642002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
What's up Todd?
Sorry I missed you this year at bacfm, but the yellow tipped gem, lemon lime loisette and rouge milli that I got from you last yeart are all banging pieces in my tank. One of these days I would like for you to PM or email pics of the colonys because they are growing out and I think the lemon lime may be an austera with that sweet yellow rim around the coralites and a few baby blue polyps. I still have no idea what species the yellow tipped gem is. I thought it was a nasuta but it has really started to table. It is about 5-6 inches now.

Hey Mark. Those three corals are all Gems IMO. I unfortunately lost my YT Gem. We definitely have to make arrangements for me to trade back for a piece. Summers in the High Desert are quite interesting in the reef business =)

The AWE Lemon Lime Loisettae is another piece that is virtually ignored unless I point it out to people. I do agree that the frags have all shown more of an Acro. austera appearance on the new growth in our Captive systems. I don't often attach a "species" name to the names of the corals except for industry excepted common species like A. millepora. I love the AWE Lemon Lime Loisettae if not for the great coral, then for the alliteration!!!

Acropora loisettae "AWE Lemon Lime Loisettae"

Glad those corals are doing good.

Interesting notes about lineage:
I picked up Purple Monster and Pink Lemonade from a reefer down in San Diego. They were browned out and colored nicely but Not completely before last years NW-CFM. In the case of the Purple Monster noone wanted it because I would not gaurantee lineage. I sold a couple for cheap but now I have a nice colony and a few frags lol.. ALot of the CFM attendees do care about lineage.

My AWE Rouge millepora: I had 10 at the 2007 SW-CFM. Sold 1 or 2. Unknowingly Tyree got a piece from a local So Cal Reefer and Tyree made it LE. I went to BA-CFM with 8 and sold them all out in the first couple hours. I have had the AWE Rouge millepora for 6-7 years. Sold countless frags at the So Cal swaps. Nooone talked much about it until Tyree made it LE. Another example at how Lineage is a very BIG issue with hobbyists.

Todd

 

[mpoletti]

Todd,

Here are a couple different shots over the last years of YTG. I did do a tank transfer and geit a new camera, but you'll get the idea

I have distributed into two other reefers tanks up here in the North. It is one of my favs. I can definitely definitely get you some back

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12629734#post12629734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Ive said this before, so I'll "badger" with it again!

Lineages serve a purpose and are valuable for a number of reasons. But (more than likely) 99 out of 100, the lineage is baseless. There is no certification, no policing, no consolidation of any lineage branding.

Another problem is the habit of "LE Posse" attacks. In Boston, we had one of the largest Reef clubs in the country. Several of Tyree's LEs were originally from corals in the tanks of reefers in my area. (there was a time when all you could get was wild caught).

Reefers who had the ORIGINAL colony try to sell a piece, and say "Same as tyree LE" and get blasted in public. The "LE posse" loves to keep their club exclusive, despite the fact that many of these LEs (or named exotics) are "weed corals" in certain areas of the country.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12634503#post12634503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aurora

The first thing that came to mind for me when "lineage" is mentioned is the coral naming craze that is going on. The naming of a coral in the past means that it's been successfully propagated by several hobbyist with good color retention from tank to tank and therefore desirable and fetch a higher price than your typical frag. .

Thats exactly the problem though. These should be the cheapest corals, and in many cases are (see Slimer, Green). Corals that hold great color, grow fast, and are easy to keep should be spread as quickly as possible.

Now, instead of them being passed around like what happened with the green slimer, we get "OOH, it grows fast and keeps color, we'll call it the 'sticky green ectoplasm stag' and sell it for $120 a piece." Making some cash on your frags is just fine, but the outrageous prices on some of these easy to keep fast growing frags is bad for the hobby.


You want to charge $120 an inch for your purple monster that grows 1/2" every two years? Fine. But the guys charging $100 for a 1/2" by 1/2" piece of colorful montipora that grows like a weed? Thats bad for the hobby. It limits the spread and 'lineage' of the coral, and makes single tank crashes MUCH more devastating.

 

[mpoletti]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643647#post12643647 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley

You want to charge $120 an inch for your purple monster that grows 1/2" every two years? Fine. But the guys charging $100 for a 1/2" by 1/2" piece of colorful montipora that grows like a weed? Thats bad for the hobby. It limits the spread and 'lineage' of the coral, and makes single tank crashes MUCH more devastating.

So true

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12641896#post12641896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
I think your misunderstood what I was saying, and is exactly the opposite I am saying.

I am trying to show why those who do care for lineage and explain the reasons why I enjoy it from my personal experience.

It would be a very elitist point of view to say that you or anyone else could not, (should not), do as such, but I did not, I was commenting on the fact that I recognize my ability to participate in such could be easier, therefor acknowleging that this may not be as easy or accessible for everyone to participate in and can see this to be a niche within the hobby. Trying to say, that just as I don't expect people to care or document lineage on every piece in the hobby, that those who do share this interest, are not discounted.

With these thoughts in mind, this in my point in explaining WHY it is important to me and others, to help explain to others that it means more that the stereotypical shallow motivations it seems in doing so. Which I believe I have.

I have made no commentary on how LE's should be selected, and that xxx is better than xyz. That is another issue, and for the sake of this conversation, know opening that up will cause us to loose focus even farther.

I'm all about finding middle ground in all of these issues, and comming up with unique solutions in consideration to everyones interests.

Yes, the whole naming thing is messed up but like it or not, the LE thing and naming is now a part of the hobby, so ingrained into the industry and marketing, even if I wanted to get rid of the concept, would be impossible to do. I believe there is room for all types of collecting or ways people can enjoy SPS, and these debates/issues/problems could be considered gowing pains that will help normalize things eventually. I hope we can do it in a way that will not deviate so far from the orgins of the hobby, we do not have a connection with it anymore.

What I am against are absolutes. I don't think everything should be named, and quite frankly just a small percentage. The rest should be regarded otherwise. Again, I do have ideas for solving these issues but this is a thread on lineage and I have already deviated more than I would like, but out of respect for our points of view, I have done so.

Balance is key, we need to find that balance and that is what is going on before your very eyes as our reefing culture develops further.

Just as it would be wrong for one to demand all pieces are for now are named, overpriced, and "dumbed down" with catchy names........it would be just the same to demand LE's be eliminated with no regard to your fellow reefers.

I have tried very hard to show my interest in solving such problems, my point of view and own personal reasons why, all the while trying to dissway those "elitist" stereotypes you are suggesting. Which I find very perplexing, unless this is a red herring, ad hominem, or devils advocate tactic?

I would really like to get back on subject and hear more of what you think. After all, without your thoughts I can not take them into consideration.

That is afterall, the point of all this right?

I guess I did severely misunderstand your posting. I apologize. I guess I will boil down the brass tacks of my concern/argument, and see where and how it applies to what you're saying.

Lineages are an approvable and unrelateable aspects for most of the hobbyists, far and away, unless you know and acquire from the importer or collector.
The bottom line issue, is that This ENTIRE premise bases exclusively on trust. And trust, while it may be entirely functional for few, is not how true lineages, species management, or population dynamics are established. You may trust those you have bought the corals from, but do you trust me? Or Joe Smith? Or whoever else? To be honest (no pun intended), this is a rhetorical question. The answer doesn't matter. The fact is that for the vast majority, the "source" of any given coral is functionally undocumented. That is, unless, you know the collector or importer, as mentioned. But for this value to go beyond that first degree of ownership, there *needs* to be consolidated, organized institution (of some sorts), that is deemed authoritative. And they will determine and document lineages, and provide the proof after the fact. To make a comparison, take the AKC for pure bred dogs. They regulate, document, and validate the claims of lineage. Trust may be valuable for you, but it is the weakest link conceivable, and if (and when) failure of trust occurs, it will automatically break. If this "trust" is the only pertinent validation of identification, and it can only be provided by a selected few, that is a system which I think is morally concerning as an "elitist" view, as I mentioned.

I, too, agree, it is here, so we must always recognize it, even if we don't agree or accept it, but I am a very far distance from being content with it (as it appears many people are).

This all begs back to one of my original questions- what are "lineages" defined as? Color? Growth? Species? The *ONLY* conditionally stable factor here is actual scientific species identification? Colors change from tank to tank, and do growth rates, patterns, forms, etc. The scientific identity will not (unless, of course, the scientific community changes that, and that is after specific peer review, not just a lone single opinion). Heres another question- What is a "fake" or "look alike"? Who gets to determine this?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643598#post12643598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Another problem is the habit of "LE Posse" attacks. In Boston, we had one of the largest Reef clubs in the country. Several of Tyree's LEs were originally from corals in the tanks of reefers in my area. (there was a time when all you could get was wild caught).

Reefers who had the ORIGINAL colony try to sell a piece, and say "Same as tyree LE" and get blasted in public. The "LE posse" loves to keep their club exclusive, despite the fact that many of these LEs (or named exotics) are "weed corals" in certain areas of the country.

Exactly. Which is why I made my reference to "elitism". It isnt the same species, in fact, the same coral, unless Tyree looks at it, and says so? That is flawed in my book. I'm sure you would agree.

Nothing against Tyree at all. From the post I read about his motivations, he would be quite similar in opinion to me, but for the hobby/collectors as a whole. Economics and free market- sure charge what you want for your product. But the self entitled policing by the hobbyist factions is a bit overboard. ESspecially when there are no established guidelines, protocols, or real functional basis for such decision making.

 

[AWExotics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12643497#post12643497 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
Todd,

Here are a couple different shots over the last years of YTG. I did do a tank transfer and geit a new camera, but you'll get the idea

I have distributed into two other reefers tanks up here in the North. It is one of my favs. I can definitely definitely get you some back

Looking good, Mark. Thanks for the pics.

 

[jtarmitage]

Thank you all for your views on this topic, especially since we can manage to have such a civil discussion on a "Hot" topic.

Mark, while nice, those pictures DO NOT do that coral justice whatsoever! I think you need to take a few more to try and capture the way the tips of the coralites truly glow. Oh, and make it grow faster so I can get a frag.

 

[AWExotics]

I don't always think of it as elitism. There are some vendors who are very protective of their named corals. They give proper credit as to where they got it from and once the coral gains momentum on boards like these and at shows, other vendors or hobbyists start marketing another coral (look-a-like) as the same name.

Sometimes it is the same coral from the same captive source.
Sometimes it is an identical coral but cannot be confirmed to be the same.
Sometimes the vendor is trying to hide who/where they got it from.
Sometimes it is a similar coral but definitely not the same, yet it is trying to piggy back on the momentum of the named coral.

I have seen other vendors offer "the same millepora as Todd's AWE Rouge" while offering frags of an Bali AC Pink Millepora. This was years ago and I knew the vendor. Side by side, the corals did not compare yet he was trying to market it which hurts my business in that he sells some comon coral as my "lineage" (which makes my coral look bad.) and he basically took "sales" from me in a local frag swap market.
"Don't market RC Cola as Coke!!!!"

I have also seen other vendors pick up a coral from me and rename get a piece to another vendor and market it without giving me credit. I am not so concerned about "credit." I am more concerned about the few customers who ended up getting a frag from both myself and this other vendor.


I offer these stories up as examples. Lineage matters and is a valuable too. Unfortunately, it is impossible to track or atleast is is too easy to trick the system. If lineage matters, then ask the vendor about it and get confirmation. The dishonest vendors/hobbyists will weed themselves out.

 

[AWExotics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12644231#post12644231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtarmitage
Thank you all for your views on this topic, especially since we can manage to have such a civil discussion on a "Hot" topic.

Mark, while nice, those pictures DO NOT do that coral justice whatsoever! I think you need to take a few more to try and capture the way the tips of the coralites truly glow. Oh, and make it grow faster so I can get a frag.

Top down photos will show it. I agree.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12644308#post12644308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by AWExotics
I don't always think of it as elitism. There are some vendors who are very protective of their named corals. They give proper credit as to where they got it from and once the coral gains momentum on boards like these and at shows, other vendors or hobbyists start marketing another coral (look-a-like) as the same name.

Sometimes it is the same coral from the same captive source.
Sometimes it is an identical coral but cannot be confirmed to be the same.
Sometimes the vendor is trying to hide who/where they got it from.
Sometimes it is a similar coral but definitely not the same, yet it is trying to piggy back on the momentum of the named coral.

I have seen other vendors offer "the same millepora as Todd's AWE Rouge" while offering frags of an Bali AC Pink Millepora. This was years ago and I knew the vendor. Side by side, the corals did not compare yet he was trying to market it which hurts my business in that he sells some comon coral as my "lineage" (which makes my coral look bad.) and he basically took "sales" from me in a local frag swap market.
"Don't market RC Cola as Coke!!!!"

I have also seen other vendors pick up a coral from me and rename get a piece to another vendor and market it without giving me credit. I am not so concerned about "credit." I am more concerned about the few customers who ended up getting a frag from both myself and this other vendor.


I offer these stories up as examples. Lineage matters and is a valuable too. Unfortunately, it is impossible to track or atleast is is too easy to trick the system. If lineage matters, then ask the vendor about it and get confirmation. The dishonest vendors/hobbyists will weed themselves out.

Todd,

I am certainly not "pointing fingers", but do have some questions about this topic, and the references you made.

You mentioned your "AWE Rouge"- what is the definition of what this coral is? IE- How is it identified? Secondly, where can I buy one, and be "assured" that it is whatever you are saying it is (per the answer to my first question)?

The points I am trying to make is this- your corals is likely a very colorful, very lovely variety of Acropora millepora. But how does "AWE Rouge" gain you any value over a simple "pink Millepora", especially if you are the only person who can decipher it, and you are the only person that can supply it? Apparently, there is nothing to stop me from selling my pink millie as "todd's AWE Rouge", right? Because there is no valuable documentation or lineage to sow so. All would have to do is say I bought it form you, or bought it from Joe, who bought it from you, etc. You get my point.
Again, what is a "look a like"? If it looks like a coral, why is it different? Because it didn't come from you?

I agree "Don't market RC Cola as Coke". Although, being in the Atlanta area, everything that is brown and carbonated is "coke"!! (You get asked at restaurants, "what kinda coke you want with your burger?"). But I digress. Coke and RC are two established, visually differed products that have a marketed and obvious difference. If no one can establish what the difference between the two was in a scalable way, then by al;l means, market RC as Coke! Because, for all intent purposes, they are the same.

I appreciate you wanting to "own" something unique, and creating a "brand" for a product you can market. But taking ownership of it under the current established "guidelines" is flawed in my opinion. How many other vendors could've gotten the exact colony that started your Rouge? Do they need to call it AWE Rouge? Or Do you need to call it Saltwater City Turbo Red (or whatever)?

I had an interesting discussion on a local board recently on this topic. A LFS had posted that they just got in some blue sunset monti. I said, "what is that? You cant have that. Sunsets aren't blue". But, I got to thinking- says who? What is the guidelines for Sunset monti, or any named coral that is? While I still believe it was a poor marketing campaign for a rather dull piece, but it really starts to open that big can of worms.