Dr. Foster and Smith Divers Den Anemone Survival Thread

[1fishkeeper]

Kevin thanks for taking your time to write that out. I for one have had great sucess with DD and nems though them. I have purchased many different fish and corals through them and if I ever did have a problem with them they were fast at getting back to me to fix it or was willing to work with me on the problem. But the only problem that I have had with them was when I ordered a BTA I ended up getting a LTA. They were very fast to fix the problem that I had and I lost count of how many times they said they were sorry for the mishap and we were able to fix the problem. I know if I am ordering something from offline I aways look with them first because of the way they went out of there way to help me. Plus there has been a few times that I even got better and healther corals and fish from them than what I could get from my LFS.

 

[DFS]

It’s great to see so many dedicated and passionate folks here on RC that genuinely care about the animals that we are so fortunate to have in our home aquariums. I am glad that I could spend some time and try and shed some light on this very important topic, and think all of us want to reduce post harvest mortality wherever we can.

Reefvette,
I would agree with you regarding the deterioration of the water chemistry during transit as being the biggest factor or damage to Cnidarians.

Regarding Breathing Bags, Kordon LLC is the company that manufactures AmQuel, NovAqua, and other water conditioners and chlorine/chloramine removers for aquarium use, and also produces these shipping bags. Back in 1993 I had the opportunity to test these new Breathing Bags during my tenure in the wholesale/import/export side of the ornamentals trade. I believe this technology is very similar to how pre-packaged produce like lettuce is offered in supermarkets today. The bags are composed of an ethylene plastic which acts like a semi-permeable membrane to allow for gas exchange (CO2 out/O2 in) while holding the water and contents safely inside. When using Kordon's Breathing Bags for transporting fish, unlike the normal method of injecting pure oxygen into the bag, these bags are sealed with 100% water and no air or oxygen in order to maximize the surface area for bag/water contact. The Breathable bags seemed to work as described but had some significant drawbacks as they were hard to open and stuck together tight, and we were not able to use multiple bags for fish or invertebrates that had sharp spines or teeth. One other issue for us was that the bags needed to be spaced apart inside the shipping container to allow for the proper gas exchange completely around the bag. After several months of testing, we concluded that it was not practical for us to use these new shipping bags.

It is a pleasure to have an opportunity to participate in this thread with all of you who are so passionate about this great hobby and the animals that we are so fortunate to care for.

Cheers!
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

 

[Flighty]

Have you ever tried dry shipping for large anemones? At least in the case of magnificas, giganteas, and haddonis they can be exposed at low tide with no ill effects. The idea behind the practice is that with the huge mass of a large anemone, the waste expelled and reabsorbed does significant damage. A dry anemone in a perforated bag all in a second bag with a little bit of absorbent material has anecdotaly been a superior shipping method. It might even kick in some natural defenses which protect the anemones when normally exposed on the reef. I do not know if this is indeed a better way to ship, but would love to hear your thoughts. I'm sure it would take some convincing to get customers to accept a new method.

I fear though that the fatal damage to these anemones occurs before they arrive at live aquaria. I'm guessing the trans shipping process is done with less care to providing a large volume of water for large anemones. Dry shipping sure would provide a weight savings there if it was a viable method.

It is fantastic to see a concerned representative of a sponsor chime in here. I am much more confident in your company and will continue to recommend the diver's den as the only website I would consider ordering a delicate anemone from.

(now when will you get some nice little mertensi carpets in stock. I can pre-send my CC# for quicker billing )

 

[Rod Buehler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13793342#post13793342 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flighty
Have you ever tried dry shipping for large anemones? At least in the case of magnificas, giganteas, and haddonis they can be exposed at low tide with no ill effects. The idea behind the practice is that with the huge mass of a large anemone, the waste expelled and reabsorbed does significant damage. A dry anemone in a perforated bag all in a second bag with a little bit of absorbent material has anecdotaly been a superior shipping method. It might even kick in some natural defenses which protect the anemones when normally exposed on the reef. I do not know if this is indeed a better way to ship, but would love to hear your thoughts. I'm sure it would take some convincing to get customers to accept a new method.

I fear though that the fatal damage to these anemones occurs before they arrive at live aquaria. I'm guessing the trans shipping process is done with less care to providing a large volume of water for large anemones. Dry shipping sure would provide a weight savings there if it was a viable method.

It is fantastic to see a concerned representative of a sponsor chime in here. I am much more confident in your company and will continue to recommend the diver's den as the only website I would consider ordering a delicate anemone from.

(now when will you get some nice little mertensi carpets in stock. I can pre-send my CC# for quicker billing )

Dry (or nearly dry) shipping was going to be my question. IME, using atleast 75% air seems to have worked for the anemones that I have (3 healthy Mags, and 2 healthy giganteas). They were all shipped in just enough water to cover the anemone. and the rest of the bag was filled with air. Not pure o2, but just bagged air. In bags with less air, the oxygen is depleted, co2 builds, pH drops..

 

[OrionN]

Mortality of shipping anemone is high. I tried anemone MO total of 7 times and got none living from it.
Of these two was from DD.
A blue S. gigantea that did not make it after 10 days and got refunded and a blue S. haddoni that live just a little more than 2 weeks and did not get refunded (I did not try because I think it is unfair to DD)
Now I just go to San Antonio, Austin or Houston to get them, if I am lucky. I recently got lucky and got a orange base, yellow tipped H. magnifica that living in my tank for the last 6 weeks. Doing well, eating well and should be with me for years to come (I hope)

 

[DFS]

Flighty and Rod,

This is a fantastic question. Packaging anemones dry, with little or no water is oftentimes referred to as “Dry Pack” which can be very successful for some species, if the anemone is in optimal health and is handled properly prior to packaging. As you have stated, it is very important that the animal is packaged with ambient air as opposed to pure oxygen. In some parts of the world it’s common for exporters to ship anemones in this manner, but there are pros and cons to doing so.

In my experience over the years shipping and receiving Anthozoa, this methodology is species and size dependant, as each individual species' morphology pertaining to the thickness of their epidermis differs. The physical size of the anemone also plays a role in how well the said species can tolerate this kind of exposure during transit.

Very small anemones with a pedal disc size of less than 2", regardless of species, are the most tolerant of this type of packaging method and do not seem to rupture easily during pre packaging handling or during transit when they are allowed to fully close and expel water prior to packaging. Medium to large sized Anemones with "thick skin" or thicker/tougher epidermis and gastrodermis seem to tolerate this method of packaging much better with less chances of damage, if they are in optimal health, and handled by a very experienced person. These more tolerant species include: Cryptodendrum adhaesivum, Heteractis crispa, Heteractis malu, Heteractis aurora, and to some extent even Stichodactyla haddoni. Moderately tolerant species of this packaging method include; Stichodactyla tapetum, Stichodactyla mertensii, Macrodactyla doreensis and Stichodactyla gigantea. The least tolerant to this packaging method include: Entacmaea quadricolor and Heteractis magnifica as they easily rupture due to their relatively thin epidermis and gastrodermis when removed from the water where they are exposed.

Although there are numerous advantages to the "dry pack" methodology to reduce exposure to polluted water during transit, in my personal experiences the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. It takes a very skilled person to prepare these animals for packing and shipping. Any damage to any part of the anemone that was inflicted previously then allowed to heal will normally rupture again when the animal is prepared then removed from the water. This is the reason that we oftentimes see mesenterial filaments protruding from the foot of some animals when we receive them from overseas exporters. Lastly, exposure to rapid temperature changes during transit when using the "dry pack" method is very stressful to these animals.

I personally prefer to ship all anemones with very large volumes of water in their shipping bags in relation to the size of the animal to reduce the chances of rapid temperature changes, limit the chances of water fouling during transit, and reduce the likelihood of rupture when the anemone is exposed to air.

I hope that I have explained the benefits and disadvantages of shipping anemones utilizing the "dry pack" method, as this is the kind of discussions that help keep us moving forward, when we all can share our experiences with one another.

Cheers!
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After several weeks or even months later for some animals, when the anemone is ready for sale, its then carefully transferred to an adjacent raceway on the same system, and is photographed for the Divers Den

What criteria do you use to decide that a given anemone is ready for sale?

Thanks very much for the posts, especially since they are more than just the defensive marketing blurbs we often see from resellers and manufacturers.

 

[DFS]

Randy,
You are most welcome. It’s a pleasure for me to have an opportunity to explain the level of care that the entire staff and myself put into the husbandry of the animals in our facility at Drs. Foster and Smith.

The first thing we look at to determine when an anemone is ready for sale is the overall appearance of the animal. Anemones easily bleach when exposed to rapid temperature changes, so the basic coloration of the animal is a very important factor, which can differ greatly among each species. An example of a bleached or non natural coloration of Heteractis malu would be a translucent white individual that is commonly exported from the Philippines. Along with coloration, how full and taught the anemone appears is also an important factor in the selection process. The appearance of the animal’s oral disc is also very important, which should be closed and not gaping too wide, and is a sign that the anemone is in prime health and is ready to be offered for sale.

From there we look at the behavior of the anemone which is the second set of criteria. Feeding response is very important to assess the health of the animal. If the anemone can successfully hold on to the food that is offered and transfers this food to its oral disc and consumes the offering is very important. The animal must also be firmly attached to either a smooth surface or rock which is more species dependant, and most not be deflated for an extended period of time. Reaction to food and how had the tentacles stick varies among the species, but if the anemone can capture food properly without letting go, and can successfully transfer the food to its oral disc is a sign that the anemone can be transferred to our adjacent raceway and be photographed the following day.

The last criteria to determine if an anemone is ready for sale would be the final inspection of the pedal disc and column to look for signs of damage which would be detrimental to the animal during transit as the onset of bacterial infections are very concerning and normally attack any open would or damaged are of these animals.

Thank you again for allowing me to explain the steps we take to try and provide the best possible livestock to our valued customers. We continually strive to make improvements to our processes so that we may keep moving forward to improve the quality, conditioning process, and level of care for the aquatic life we maintain and offer on our site.

Cheers,
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the info.

 

[kimsie]

Kevin -

As others have said 'Thank you!' for all of the information you have provided. I know we all really apprecaite it.

I do have a question. Would it be possible for the consumer to get more information on the specific individual anemones? I'm asking because I know I called the customer service desk after I ordered mine and asked a few questions about where the anemone came from and its care so far. However the procedure was that the customer service representatives have to call the people who actually care for the anemone - ask the questions then the customer service representative gets back to you. In other words - I was able to get very little factual information about the anemone I was purchasing. I was able to ask where it was collected. But when I asked how long it had been there and a few other questions - they only answered in generalities.

I think it would be fantastic if it were possible to open the lines of communication between the consumer and the actual people caring for the anemones. Are there records kept on their care? I've been watching daily (I get your email when new items are posted) and you don't have THAT many WYSIWYG anemones daily. Maybe it would be way to hard but I just wanted to ask. I know when I spent $200 on an anemone I would have loved to be able to ask a few more questions - directly to those who had taken care of it. That may have helped me to have better success.

Just a thought - again - Thank you SO much for all of your information.

Kim

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kevin:

I thought of another question too. I'm certainly interested in buying additional anemones, and likely from you. My concern is the success of transition to my tank, as it is for most folks.

So....

As fall progresses into winter, the conditions for shipping would seem to be declining rapidly for those of us in the Midwest and Northeast (perhaps not in the South, etc).

Since you have a guarantee that lets you know when shipping was successful and when it was not, you may have better info on this than anyone else. Do you find that the success rate declines substantially in the winter? When do you find is the best time of year for shipping to the Midwest and Northeast, and do you find that the difference is large, or perhaps not so large or even lost in the noise of other reasons for failure?

TIA

 

[SPStoner]

As a long time customer of Liveaquaria, I have had fairly good success with anemones that I acquired from them, inlcuding a Ritteri that I have had for 2+ years and a Gigantea that I have had for almost three. I did lose one Gigantea from them, although I attribute this to FedEx losing the box for a day, making it almost 50 hours in transit.

My experiences, to Randy's question, indicate that anemones, and corals, actually have a better survival rate when shipping in winter versus summer, probably for the simple reason that they make 36 hour heat packs, but haven't yet made an ice pack that lasts that long.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Pacific Reefs]

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for the detailed explination of how you handle the livestock at your facility. I would like to ask if you have tried to propogate any anemones there? If so which ones have you tried?

Thank you,
Tom

 

[DFS]

kimsie wrote:

I do have a question. Would it be possible for the consumer to get more information on the specific individual anemones? I'm asking because I know I called the customer service desk after I ordered mine and asked a few questions about where the anemone came from and its care so far. However the procedure was that the customer service representatives have to call the people who actually care for the anemone - ask the questions then the customer service representative gets back to you. In other words - I was able to get very little factual information about the anemone I was purchasing. I was able to ask where it was collected. But when I asked how long it had been there and a few other questions - they only answered in generalities.

Kim,
I will start to add more information regarding specific anemones when we list them in the Divers Den. Information such as location of collection, coloration of the column, and the length of time the animal has been in quarantine. If any customers have questions on the care and husbandry of the aquatic life we offer on LiveAquaria.com, or any questions at all we are here to help so feel free to call or email us directly. Our company utilizes electronic eForms that are answered by myself and the Operations Manager here at our Aquaculture Coral and Marine Life Facility, when they are sent over from our LiveAquaria call center staff, technical department, and supervisors. We answer numerous questions on a daily basis. I apologize that you had difficulty having some of the specific questions answered regarding the anemone that you had recently ordered.

kimsie wrote:

I think it would be fantastic if it were possible to open the lines of communication between the consumer and the actual people caring for the anemones. Are there records kept on their care? I've been watching daily (I get your email when new items are posted) and you don't have THAT many WYSIWYG anemones daily. Maybe it would be way to hard but I just wanted to ask. I know when I spent $200 on an anemone I would have loved to be able to ask a few more questions - directly to those who had taken care of it. That may have helped me to have better success.

Our call center staff, technical department, and supervisors have all of the resources necessary to answer any questions that you may have. To provide the best possible care for all of the aquatic life we maintain in our Aquaculture Coral and Marine Life Facility all of our time is focused solely on the husbandry, shipping and receiving, and maintenance of the facility. Once again, always feel free to email or call us at any time with questions, concerns, or just to talk about your aquarium as that is what we are here for, to take care of our valued customers by providing the best possible service and aquatic life.

Randy Holmes-Farley wrote:

As fall progresses into winter, the conditions for shipping would seem to be declining rapidly for those of us in the Midwest and Northeast (perhaps not in the South, etc).

Randy,
Although it is more challenging shipping in extreme weather conditions we have the necessary means of packaging the animals safely for transit. Marine animals ship much better when they are slightly cooler than warmer, as with elevated temperatures the chances of water fouling during transit if there is a delay is greater on some animals. As SPStoner stated, Ice packs only last so long if there is a delay, and the package is exposed to very warm conditions, where heat packs are available in 12 hour, 24 hour, 30 hour, and 40 hour sizes.

Randy Holmes-Farley wrote:

Since you have a guarantee that lets you know when shipping was successful and when it was not, you may have better info on this than anyone else. Do you find that the success rate declines substantially in the winter? When do you find is the best time of year for shipping to the Midwest and Northeast, and do you find that the difference is large, or perhaps not so large or even lost in the noise of other reasons for failure?

Success rates do vary slightly seasonally. The best possible conditions are normally in the late spring, or early to mid fall when weather conditions are moderate, with very little deviation or extremes when shipping to and from the Midwest and Northeast. We maintain very accurate statistics on mortality, and have a very sophisticated inventory control system that enables us to track mortality daily, weekly, monthly, or annually based on the reason. Reasons such as Dead on Arrival (DOA), Dead After Arrival, Weather Delay, Customer Dissatisfied, and several other codes are utilized when we process any credit for aquatic life.

Pacific Reefs wrote:

Thank you for the detailed explanation of how you handle the livestock at your facility. I would like to ask if you have tried to propagate any anemones there? If so which ones have you tried?

Tom,
Currently at this time we have not focused on propagating anemones in house, but I hope to incorporate this very soon, along with the propagation of some species of fish as well.

I want to thank everyone again for taking the time to ask questions here on Reef Central, and its a pleasure for me to have the opportunity to participate in this thread. I want to wish everyone a happy and safe Thanksgiving holiday!

Cheers!
Kevin Kohen
Director of LiveAquaria
Drs. Foster and Smith

 

[Flighty]

Propagation of magnificas would be especially promising. Imagine turning one very large magnifica (with an extremely small chance of surviving all of the shipping) into four small sized ones all with a much better chance of thriving. Doing it in the ocean before they suffer shipping damage would be the optimal way to go, but I wonder if it might be profitable to do at your level.

While we have you on the line there are many of us here extremely interested in the sexual side of anemone reproduction. I know there would be a large salivating market here for information about baby anemones or the anemones themselves. I know Giganteas and haddonis are known to internally brood their young and I have seen pictures of newly imported specemins releasing fully formed baby anemones. With the number of adults you are handling have you seen this happen? I know I'm not the only one here who would probably pay more for a ricordea sized gigantea baby mounted to rubble than for a newly shipped adult.

 

[elegance coral]

I am simply amazed that a company who's main concern has to be making a profit (can't keep the doors open without it) would still go through the time and expense to care for these animals the way the DD does. Any of us that purchase a gigantea, magnifica, or any of the more delicate anemones should know what we are getting into. It sounds to me like the DD has done everything humanly possible to give us a fighting chance at success with these delicate species.

I have never ordered livestock online, but I do check the DD update every time the e-mail comes in. I have always been impressed with the health of the anemones pictured on the site, but have always been nervous about buying an anemone I can't see in person. After reading this thread I would feel much more comfortable ordering from them. I'm sure my next anemone will come from the DD. Now they just need to get something in other than RBTA's. LOL.

 

[Premnas]

Let's face it, anemones are difficult. At least with Foster & Smith you get a full refund or credit including shipping.

 

[Premnas]

I don't have time to drive around looking for livestock since most good stores are very far away. Drs F&S and Blue Zoo Aquatics are the ones I've dealt with and both are very good.

 

[AD87]

Kevin could I request to have my future anemone shipped dry if I wanted to take the chance?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the info, Kevin.