Dwarf zebra lionfish color fade

[The Plummer]

I've had a dwarf zebra lionfish for several months now and I've noticed that it's coloration has faded. Water params are PH 8.4, ammonia, nitrite, phosphate, all undetectable. Nitrates between 5-20 varying. Salinity is always 1.20 or slightly higher. Temp stays around 78 F. All other fish have deep rich color. Tank is ick free from TTM QT.

I feed one dead silverside every 2-3 days. I only feed when he swims to the top and acts hungry, sometimes he won't eat even than and I have to wait about 8 hrs till he acts hungry again. I don't feed live as I don't want it to stop eating dead.

I've considered feeding freeze dried krill, but cannot find larger ones to feed in my area.

I'm concerned as he is even more sedintary than normal. He won't fan out when hanging out, but rather tucks all fins in and lays on the bottom.

I noticed this behavior after I corrected a calcium deficiency. Was 360, increased to 500 over three days.

Should I be concerned?

 

[HumbleFish]

It's been so long since I've owned a lion, but I remember some do "molt" or "shed" their mucous layer. Sometimes it's normal, a good thing - sometimes not.

 

[HumbleFish]

While I believe it also can be normal for them to molt periodically, scroll down until you see, "Diseases and Health Problems" here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-11/fm/feature/

Also might be a good idea to post this in "Fish Only & Aggressive Tanks" to attract the attention of those more familiar with Lionfish.

 

[The Plummer]

Thanks for the advice so far. One thing I've gleaned is that feeding freeze dried krill is not so good. Good thing I haven't done so.

He doesn't look like he's shedding, no mucous or strings visible. Just the red stripes fading.

I'll give this thread a little time here before re posting. Maybe someone with knowledge will catch it.

Maybe calcium too high. Wouldn't think so.

 

[jarrod13]

I doubt it has anything to do with your water, especially calcium. My zebra gets really faded and looks very sick when he is just resting also, but as soon as he sees me with food he perks up and his colors get bright again. That's normal behavior. I've noticed as they get more mature they spend more time perching IME.

Is he breathing heavier than normal? Are his eyes any cloudier than usual?

There is definitely the possibility he is getting ready to molt his cuticle also

 

[The Plummer]

I doubt it has anything to do with your water, especially calcium. My zebra gets really faded and looks very sick when he is just resting also, but as soon as he sees me with food he perks up and his colors get bright again. That's normal behavior. I've noticed as they get more mature they spend more time perching IME.

Is he breathing heavier than normal? Are his eyes any cloudier than usual?

There is definitely the possibility he is getting ready to molt his cuticle also

I usually cannot even tell that he is breathing. He's that mellow.
Eyes are very clear.

Thanks for the info. He just used to be more colorful. I do add Kent reef essentials, this does make the other fish's color pop. I know it's not really necessary as it's a FOWLER tank, but I notice a difference.

 

[MrTuskfish]

You're right about the krill; long term use has been linked to lockjaw in lions. Zebras may be the toughest commonly seen lion to keep. Here's something that may help by our resident lion experts:http://www.lionfishlair.com/

 

[namxas]

How about a photo or two?

There is indeed something we consider "lionfish stress coloration"...faded coloration, especially on the head behind its eyes. The clamped fins bother me, as this is typically an indication of poor health.

I'm assuming no changes to the system (equipment, flow, lighting, etc), no new inhabitants, etc?

What size is your tank?

What are the fish's tankmates?

Have any of the tankmates grown and reached maturity? This sometimes triggers aggression, and an intimidated lionfish will act as your is doing.

Do you feed your fish any other foods besides silversides (do you cut them up)? Salmon is a really great food, and is very good for preds. FWIW, I've seen lionfishes become "bored" with the same food day after day, and it's always good to vary a fish's diet.

 

[The Plummer]

His color is a little better since I started this thread. He moved about an hour ago and doesn't have clamped fins. He just likes to tuck in a spot and stay there.

He has about four favorite hang outs that he moves to throuout the day.

55 gal display/35 gal sump

Tank mates:
True perc
False perc
4" yellow tang
3" scopas tang
>3" Niger trigger
Nearly full sized coral beauty
4" hippo tang

Tank was very aggressive until zebra was added, immediately the tank mates calmed down. No one messes with him. Niger used to try to compete with him but now won't come near the silverside when he approaches.

I can only get him to feed if I hold the silverside by the tail and shake it vigorously as I approach the tank to get his attention, then I hold it with the head in the water and shake by the tail. He won't eat off a stick. He used to but stopped a month ago.

How do I feed chunks of fish. Won't he only eat when he can see eyes and take food by the head.

If so, how about frozen shrimp tails?

Thanks again.

 

[jarrod13]

That's a lot of fast swimming fish around him. That can also cause lionfish to be less active.

 

[MrTuskfish]

His color is a little better since I started this thread. He moved about an hour ago and doesn't have clamped fins. He just likes to tuck in a spot and stay there.

He has about four favorite hang outs that he moves to throuout the day.

55 gal display/35 gal sump

Tank mates:
True perc
False perc
4" yellow tang
3" scopas tang
>3" Niger trigger
Nearly full sized coral beauty
4" hippo tang

Tank was very aggressive until zebra was added, immediately the tank mates calmed down. No one messes with him. Niger used to try to compete with him but now won't come near the silverside when he approaches.

I can only get him to feed if I hold the silverside by the tail and shake it vigorously as I approach the tank to get his attention, then I hold it with the head in the water and shake by the tail. He won't eat off a stick. He used to but stopped a month ago.

How do I feed chunks of fish. Won't he only eat when he can see eyes and take food by the head.

If so, how about frozen shrimp tails?

Thanks again.

Way too many fish and just the general mayhem could stress out the lion; they don't like all of that activity. A scopas and a yellow tang won't be friends for long in a tank that size. The lion can get big enough to eat the clowns. The tank is way too small for any one of those tangs, much less 3 of them. The niger is a fast growing trigger in a tank that's too small for him. Triggers love to nip the flowing fins of lions.

Not trying to beat you up, but this tank doesn't have a chance. Researching fish is vital prior to purchase. Here's a good start. http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15

Note that this vendor suggests a minimum of 180 gals for a niger, a fish that can reach 12". The clowns, coral beauty, and a small lion would be about all a 55 can handle and the clowns becoming lunch for the lion is very possible. Cramped quarters= aggression and your tank must have constant bickering. If not, it will have soon.

 

[The Plummer]

I'm already ahead of you there. The fish are all smaller now

I'm also doing this as an experiment with a 5 gal RDSB to see how much bioload it can handle. Nitrates were zero until I added the zebra.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'm already ahead of you there. The fish are all smaller now

I'm also doing this as an experiment with a 5 gal RDSB to see how much bioload it can handle. Nitrates were zero until I added the zebra.

The fish are smaller than they were at 8:20 last night, but still the same fish mix? I'm having a hard time taking this thread seriously.

 

[The Plummer]

What I meant by "now" was they are smaller now than they will be in a year

My fish are happy. Except the color of the zebra. I don't need to be reprimanded by the [removed]. 20 years ago the size aquarium was said to be acceptable. Why the change now. I used to have many more fish in the same aquarium and they were larger also, then than I have now.

I used to have nothing more than a wet/dry filter then and now I'm using a RDSB. It's working much better. I'll [profanity] you off even more, I don't vacuum my rock and haven't done a water change in a year. I also take the high nitrate water from another tank and swap it with this one to let the RDSB process the nitrates out of the water

Now slam away.

My other fish are happy they don't race around like a they are crazy they leisurely swim about happily picking on the rock work.

I shouldn't have to defend myself to you though, your just looking to pick apart my judgement and interject your own values.

I have not lost one fish in a year. No ick. No parasites. Good color. No hard breathing, nothing, nada. I feed rather heavy.

I did lose two shrimp during a 11 week fallow period though. Probably due to the fact that I didn't ghost feed enough.

My next improvement in my system is to add macro algae to assist in nitrate/phosphate mitigation.

I do want to increase my CUC, though I'm hesitant about adding them w/out a 11 week QT first, & I'm not sure how I'm going to keep 40 snails alive in a QT for 11 weeks.

Go ahead judge me.

 

[MrTuskfish]

What I meant by "now" was they are smaller now than they will be in a year

My fish are happy. Except the color of the zebra. I don't need to be reprimanded by the "tang police". 20 years ago the size aquarium was said to be acceptable. Why the change now. I used to have many more fish in the same aquarium and they were larger also, then than I have now.

I used to have nothing more than a wet/dry filter then and now I'm using a RDSB. It's working much better. I'll **** you off even more, I don't vacuum my rock and haven't done a water change in a year. I also take the high nitrate water from another tank and swap it with this one to let the RDSB process the nitrates out of the water

Now slam away.

My other fish are happy they don't race around like a they are crazy they leisurely swim about happily picking on the rock work.

I shouldn't have to defend myself to you though, your just looking to pick apart my judgement and interject your own values.

I have not lost one fish in a year. No ick. No parasites. Good color. No hard breathing, nothing, nada. I feed rather heavy.

I did lose two shrimp during a 11 week fallow period though. Probably due to the fact that I didn't ghost feed enough.

My next improvement in my system is to add macro algae to assist in nitrate/phosphate mitigation.

I do want to increase my CUC, though I'm hesitant about adding them w/out a 11 week QT first, & I'm not sure how I'm going to keep 40 snails alive in a QT for 11 weeks.

Go ahead judge me.

I wasn't judging you, I was trying to help you with an obvious overcrowding problem. I am not injecting any values that aren't supported by authors and (IMO) the RC community. Like this one:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946007 My comments from now on will simply be warnings to others who may think you are taking a responsible approach to the hobby. Go ahead with your "I know better than anyone" approach; but please don't let it spread to others who really need help, especially newcomers.

 

[snorvich]

He has about four favorite hang outs that he moves to throuout the day.

55 gal display/35 gal sump

Tank mates:
True perc
False perc
4" yellow tang
3" scopas tang
>3" Niger trigger
Nearly full sized coral beauty
4" hippo tang

.

This is in a 55 gallon display tank? If so you have a lot more problems than the lionfish not moving around. The lionfish will eventually eat the clownfish, and the trigger may not tolerate the lionfish as it matures.

 

[namxas]

I can only get him to feed if I hold the silverside by the tail and shake it vigorously as I approach the tank to get his attention, then I hold it with the head in the water and shake by the tail. He won't eat off a stick. He used to but stopped a month ago.

There's a good chance that if your fish ever grabbed the stick along with the food, that it has gone "stick shy". I highly recommend DIY-ing a "stealth stick", and giving it a try. It is described and pictured in this article:

Tools of the Trade: Equipment & Techniques to Convert your Fish onto Frozen

Here are a couple of videos showing the stick at work:

How do I feed chunks of fish. Won't he only eat when he can see eyes and take food by the head.

We feed all of our preds fish chunks, pieces of shrimp, bivalve meat, etc. Food size is also important. The best food item size is about the size of the fish's eye. They are more easily digested by fishes with slow metabolisms, and are less "intimidating" to non-weaned fishes. In fact, all of our fishes will gravitate to the feeding stick in lieu of live food if both are offered concurrently, as they now associate the stick with food.

As Jarrod mentioned, all those fast-movers may also play a role in the lion's activity level.

Regarding live macro, I have nothing but good things to say about it...we use live macro in most of our setups.

 

[Mrscribbled]

I have not seen any "judgment" taking place here. The OP had a concern, and people will to take time and help is all that has taken place.
A lionfish must be housed in a tank revolving around itself. They don't do well in busy tanks period. Non of the tangs or trigger are suitable long term in a 55, when fish are purchased I feel fish should be placed with long term in mind. Short term methods often affect the health and longevity in fish requiring swimming room.

 

[The Plummer]

This is in a 55 gallon display tank? If so you have a lot more problems than the lionfish not moving around. The lionfish will eventually eat the clownfish, and the trigger may not tolerate the lionfish as it matures.

I have a 40 breeder that I'm setting up specifically for the lionfish. I have time though as the clowns are too large for him right now. Also the trigger is much smaller than the lionfish and he is very mellow. Also, since he's a filter feeder there's a much less chance that he'll be aggressive to the lion. That's why I chose him

I'm well aware of the writings about trigger/lion aggression, though 20 yrs ago, I had a dinner plate size volitain and an 8" clown trigger and they got along for over two years. Not saying I don't believe the aggression issue, because I do. That's why I chose the species I did.

Also, I have a micro tank for the clowns later down the road, when theirs more of a potential issue.

Like I've already said, I'm purposely overloading this specific tank to see just how good my home made RDSB works. I'm extremely happy so far with the PH buffering. I don't add any buffer and my PH is always 8.2-8.4. Also my nitrates are well within acceptable range and even continue to fall from adding 10 gal of water from another tank that was at 100ppm nitrates.

All this with a very small air stone type protein skimmer.

All my equipment is 1990 vintage, modified and repurposed to take advantage of today's technology.

I've done a considerable amount of research for about two years before I set my DT back up & so far it's performance is exceeding my expectations.

I owe a great deal of my knowledge from this very forum & I apologize for the sharp tone Mr tuskfish, you personally have helped me in the past, your post just kinda rubbed me wrong today.

I really think that if many of you out there would see my current setup and compare dollars to performance you'd be impressed, especially if you could see just how health and calm my fish are.

I am aware of phosphate absorption into my rock work and that's the next iron in the fire to solve. Both with macro and I have an idea how to convert my protein skimmer into a high performance one for its size. I've enlisted consultation from Jeff at Life Reef and he's rather excited about seeing Its performance.

Again apologies to all for my snarkiness.

 

[BrianD]

Your tank is overstocked, and the fish are going to suffer for it. The best apology would be to relocate some of those fish.