ReefCowboy
New member
I have lots of colonies under leds. Some smaller ones grown faster and looking better now under them..
Has LED surpassed Halides?
- Thread starter pleasants9
- Start date
I have lots of colonies under leds. Some smaller ones grown faster and looking better now under them..
biecacka
Active member
Yes Sanjay is growing corals at record pace, but how many fixtures. Before he switched over on his 500 gallon, I think when he first experimented it was 3 radions on a 40 gallon. So 2100$ of lighting on a 40 gallon tank.
While I agree wholeheartedly that leds work, I think the big thing is we need more fixtures than we think and I believe Sanjay showed this on the 40 gallon. 24/24 area is about the absolute max I think most leds can run efficiently. I ran 4 rapidled kits on my tank for awhile and needed at least 2 more...
Corey
While I agree wholeheartedly that leds work, I think the big thing is we need more fixtures than we think and I believe Sanjay showed this on the 40 gallon. 24/24 area is about the absolute max I think most leds can run efficiently. I ran 4 rapidled kits on my tank for awhile and needed at least 2 more...
Corey
Hentz
New member
I know man I'm just giving you a hard time. I follow your build! You've got some very nice colonies in there. Just goes to prove LED's are amazing.
jason2459
Well-known member
Yep, need more power regardless of tech.
I'm bumping up to 700watts now between LED and T5HOs. Of which there's only 160watts of T5s in that 700 watts. I'm not that far off now from what I would be if I ran MH. I could probably use another LED fixture and still be good.
I'd probably be running 3 250watt radions and 160 watts of T5s. That's 960watts. (But really more with the hqi ballasts )
But the heat radiates up from the fixture mostly and blown out by my canopy fan. I think someone mentioned something leading to that.
ReefCowboy
New member
I know man I'm just giving you a hard time. I follow your build! You've got some very nice colonies in there. Just goes to prove LED's are amazing.[/QUOTE
The only reason I gave leds a try was because I saw in person lots of amazing tanks.
ReefCowboy
New member
You are correct, to light a tank properly, one would need to invest heavy going with leds...
I think Sanjay runs 10x G4 Radions...thats way more than he was doing before with the 3x400w.
I chose now a high coverage led fixture so I could get that technology without having to sell my house. Two units would be perfect for my 5' 150 gal.
When I ran my previous 36" sps tank(pic) I had three Hydra 26's and two T5's to get corals happy and no shadowing. Some would run the same amount of fixtures over a tank 2-3 times larger. If you want leds to work like the other methods, things must be thought out.
For a big tank, financially it is very demanding compared to MH/T5's..
<a href="http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/Carlosjayme1/media/IMG_0277_zpsj9g3mdel.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh583/Carlosjayme1/IMG_0277_zpsj9g3mdel.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_0277_zpsj9g3mdel.jpg"/></a>
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Ron Reefman
Active member
Sure LEDs can be very expensive if you chose to buy the top of the line fixture with all the bells and whistles. But a Chinese black box from MarsAqua can cover the same square footage as the Radion and grow coral just as well too. So Sanjay could have cut that $2100 invoice down to $300. Even with most of the fancy features like 6 channels and sunrise/sunset, one $700 Photon V2 at 32" or 48" could do the same thing!
I've used power compacts, MH, t5 and now leds. All the current lighting options work, they all grow coral and they all have 'issues'. It's more about what features and advantages or disadvantages you are willing to pay for or deal with.
Ron Reefman
Active member
I really have tried to stay out of these threads which typically go nowhere fast, but every now and then I get the itch to respond and need to scratch it. Use what you like (they will all grow coral, simple as that, and they each have their pros and cons), and avoid the advice of those who resort to hyperbole (or worse, outright falsehoods) to further their argument.
:wave: Oh, and full disclosure - I have used MH, T5 and LED over the years (over 20 years with marine aquariums), and currently run all LED for my own personal reasons...
zooman72, your reply to reefwiser was right on the money!
Are leds the greatest? No, they have some issues.
Are MH the greatest? No, they have issues as well.
Do they both grow coral and make some tanks look spectacular? Indeed.
Do people kill stuff wit both systems? Yes they do!
reefwiser
New member
I really have tried to stay out of these threads which typically go nowhere fast, but every now and then I get the itch to respond and need to scratch it. Use what you like (they will all grow coral, simple as that, and they each have their pros and cons), and avoid the advice of those who resort to hyperbole (or worse, outright falsehoods) to further their argument.
:wave: Oh, and full disclosure - I have used MH, T5 and LED over the years (over 20 years with marine aquariums), and currently run all LED for my own personal reasons...
No falsehoods on my part anyone is welcome to come to my house and put their hand on MH fixture. If you had went to MACNA you could have put our hand on the Reefbrite 250 watt fixture they had been running during the show.
Yes there can be heat transfer if you mount the fixture right on the top of the water. Mine is 10" off the water.
"Metal halides aren't really "plug and grow" either - many hobbyists have bleached corals under MH's, especially early on in their usage. Many current and new hobbyists have used LED's "safely" and "successfully" by doing some simple research."
Not as many as those under LED's An it really isn't as hard to set up a MH fixture.
"Shading does actually occur with MH too, and is highly dependent on the reflector size, plus lots of MH users also supplement w/ T5. LED shading (and especially spread) can be mitigated in smaller form-factor fixtures by simply raising the fixture higher above the aquarium."
Not near to the rate as LED fixtures as one raises the fixture the lenses that the new LED's are using change the angle. When a manufacturer says to mount a light at 9 inches and makes and sells a mount to put the light on a tank. An then people No you have to mount the light 17 to 20 inches to get the "new" light to work and turn the light up to 100% What is the new hobbyist to do? There is confusion as to what and how to run a LED fixture.
People add t5's MH to bring out colors just as LED users turn up the blue on their lights to bring out colors. This doesn't help in anyway to grow corals it just is for those would what the neon colors of the corals to shine.
"Fail to see your point, other than a rant against LED's. Many aquarists have used fixtures for multiple years without issue. There is often no need to upgrade, and to blame manufacturers for offering new features seems petty at best. The same can be said (and has been to be honest) for protein skimmer offerings."
Well you saw this past summer a ton of G$ radion sold Even Sanja got rid of his and add even more to his tank than he had before. It is not blaming the manufacturer's. It is pushing them to make a better lamp. a row of LED's and slapping them in a metal case does not take a lot of effort.
My concern is the new hobbyist that buy's one of the approved LED's and does his work and keeps his water quality up and does every thing you want him to do and still can not grow corals. He is then left to think that he is a failure. Because he used LED lights and everyone else is growing corals out of their tanks but I can not. So they leave the hobby the long this continues the less hobbyist there will be.
I teach new hobbyist and help at my local LFS to make hobbyist successful. I am not going to let a new hobbyist fail because he spent a bunch of money and it just is not working for him. In 99 percent of new hobbyist case that I work with we go thru all the elements of the tank water chemistry and lighting. I set up LED's with a PAR meter and we adjust it correctly.
I let the new hobbyist use LED's but if the call me 6 months later with problems and I we do a investigation on what is could be the cause.
An they change their tank to run T5 lights or MH the problem goes away.
An they start to have success.
"Plain BS - light is just one thing necessary for coral growth, and most LED fixtures provide plenty of light in the correct wavelengths. To claim otherwise is just plain silly."
So run a test put to of the same corals in two tanks at the same time running on the same sump. One using MH and one using LED. Which will grow a coral faster? Answer MH how do I know I did it. Have you done this test?
"You claim to have been in the hobby for some time, yet you consistently (over several threads) fail to appreciate the history of aquarium lighting, which has been pointed out by others. MH took quite a while to reach the current state, and is by no means the perfect "one size fits all" solution. "
I don't have to claim it I can show it.
My club has held 3 MACNA's I was on the board of directors for MASNA from the very beginning I have attended numerous MACNA and was involved in the effort to get better spectrums for MH bulbs. I know first hand the efforts we put into the hobby to get MH and T5 where they are today. I an others spent hours of our time researching and talking to lighting manufacturers. to find the specialized lights that we have today. People buying LED's today are not pushing for better. They are saying these are great lights and so we have to add T5's to our tank to make the corals grow good so. So what if we have to cover every inch of our tank with LED's to go full LED. Hobbyist need to push the industry to do better. I want to see LED's work for everyone. They are not at that level yet and hobbyist need to complain to companies not say those that say they are not their yet are lying and making things up. That is not doing the hobby any good.
"Manufacturers offer hybrid lighting to meet a perceived "need" in the hobby, and not because they are nefariously trying to "prop up" substandard fixtures. Also, if you were truly aware of current LED lighting, you would realize that many companies does provide schedule/ intensity templates to hobbyists to aid is the use of their fixtures."
There should be no need for Schedules the research that companies do should inform them of where the levels should be and yes I know I have Radion's Kessils and black boxes in my box of used equipment. I do lighting and color testing in my line of work. I calibrate lighting for color grading of products. I have been in the field for 40 years now. So lighting is nothing new to me and one of the reasons I have been involved with the hobby so long.
LEDs will never "work for everyone" because they are so customizable. The fact that a technology is so flexible that people can use them incorrectly is not a flaw of the tech, it's what we call a "problem between the chair and the terminal".No falsehoods on my part anyone is welcome to come to my house and put their hand on MH fixture. If you had went to MACNA you could have put our hand on the Reefbrite 250 watt fixture they had been running during the show.
Yes there can be heat transfer if you mount the fixture right on the top of the water. Mine is 10" off the water.
"Metal halides aren't really "plug and grow" either - many hobbyists have bleached corals under MH's, especially early on in their usage. Many current and new hobbyists have used LED's "safely" and "successfully" by doing some simple research."
Not as many as those under LED's An it really isn't as hard to set up a MH fixture.
"Shading does actually occur with MH too, and is highly dependent on the reflector size, plus lots of MH users also supplement w/ T5. LED shading (and especially spread) can be mitigated in smaller form-factor fixtures by simply raising the fixture higher above the aquarium."
Not near to the rate as LED fixtures as one raises the fixture the lenses that the new LED's are using change the angle. When a manufacturer says to mount a light at 9 inches and makes and sells a mount to put the light on a tank. An then people No you have to mount the light 17 to 20 inches to get the "new" light to work and turn the light up to 100% What is the new hobbyist to do? There is confusion as to what and how to run a LED fixture.
People add t5's MH to bring out colors just as LED users turn up the blue on their lights to bring out colors. This doesn't help in anyway to grow corals it just is for those would what the neon colors of the corals to shine.
"Fail to see your point, other than a rant against LED's. Many aquarists have used fixtures for multiple years without issue. There is often no need to upgrade, and to blame manufacturers for offering new features seems petty at best. The same can be said (and has been to be honest) for protein skimmer offerings."
Well you saw this past summer a ton of G$ radion sold Even Sanja got rid of his and add even more to his tank than he had before. It is not blaming the manufacturer's. It is pushing them to make a better lamp. a row of LED's and slapping them in a metal case does not take a lot of effort.
My concern is the new hobbyist that buy's one of the approved LED's and does his work and keeps his water quality up and does every thing you want him to do and still can not grow corals. He is then left to think that he is a failure. Because he used LED lights and everyone else is growing corals out of their tanks but I can not. So they leave the hobby the long this continues the less hobbyist there will be.
I teach new hobbyist and help at my local LFS to make hobbyist successful. I am not going to let a new hobbyist fail because he spent a bunch of money and it just is not working for him. In 99 percent of new hobbyist case that I work with we go thru all the elements of the tank water chemistry and lighting. I set up LED's with a PAR meter and we adjust it correctly.
I let the new hobbyist use LED's but if the call me 6 months later with problems and I we do a investigation on what is could be the cause.
An they change their tank to run T5 lights or MH the problem goes away.
An they start to have success.
"Plain BS - light is just one thing necessary for coral growth, and most LED fixtures provide plenty of light in the correct wavelengths. To claim otherwise is just plain silly."
So run a test put to of the same corals in two tanks at the same time running on the same sump. One using MH and one using LED. Which will grow a coral faster? Answer MH how do I know I did it. Have you done this test?
"You claim to have been in the hobby for some time, yet you consistently (over several threads) fail to appreciate the history of aquarium lighting, which has been pointed out by others. MH took quite a while to reach the current state, and is by no means the perfect "one size fits all" solution. "
I don't have to claim it I can show it.
People buying LED's today are not pushing for better. They are saying these are great lights and so we have to add T5's to our tank to make the corals grow good so. So what if we have to cover every inch of our tank with LED's to go full LED. Hobbyist need to push the industry to do better. I want to see LED's work for everyone. They are not at that level yet and hobbyist need to complain to companies not say those that say they are not their yet are lying and making things up. That is not doing the hobby any good.
"Manufacturers offer hybrid lighting to meet a perceived "need" in the hobby, and not because they are nefariously trying to "prop up" substandard fixtures. Also, if you were truly aware of current LED lighting, you would realize that many companies does provide schedule/ intensity templates to hobbyists to aid is the use of their fixtures."
There should be no need for Schedules the research that companies do should inform them of where the levels should be and yes I know I have Radion's Kessils and black boxes in my box of used equipment. I do lighting and color testing in my line of work. I calibrate lighting for color grading of products. I have been in the field for 40 years now. So lighting is nothing new to me and one of the reasons I have been involved with the hobby so long.
I'm so tired of reading about people using a crappy spectrum as some example of a flaw of LEDs. That's a flaw of people and hence why he good companies like Kessil and Ecotech offer premade schedules for people.
There are a million ways people can screw up using a smart phone over an old rotary phone... So should we go back to rotary phones? Lol...
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
reefwiser
New member
Why shouldn't they work for everyone ?
Why should they get graded on a curve. Because they are customizable.
So you are using user error as an excuse as to why a one hobbyist can not get good results. Shouldn't good companies take that into account.
The goal of a piece of equipment is to make the purchaser of the product successful and happy. All aquarium equipment manufactures should make products that make their customers successful. Not make customers the reason for the reason that they are unsuccessful.
Shouldn't we all use LED's and they should work for everyone. Making successful hobbyist should be the number one goal of any companies products. Blaming the user is not the correct way to handle a problem. Make changes to how your product till you can guarantee success. We are talking about wholely different requirements here.
Yes T5 and MH are mature lighting systems. But it took efforts of many to get it there. These same efforts need to occur in the LED space. Saying it is the users problem will not get us to where we all want LED's to be.
As hobbyist we must continue to push for better we are keeping live animals and they are under our care. It is our responsibility to provide them with an environment which they can live and grow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why should they get graded on a curve. Because they are customizable.
So you are using user error as an excuse as to why a one hobbyist can not get good results. Shouldn't good companies take that into account.
The goal of a piece of equipment is to make the purchaser of the product successful and happy. All aquarium equipment manufactures should make products that make their customers successful. Not make customers the reason for the reason that they are unsuccessful.
Shouldn't we all use LED's and they should work for everyone. Making successful hobbyist should be the number one goal of any companies products. Blaming the user is not the correct way to handle a problem. Make changes to how your product till you can guarantee success. We are talking about wholely different requirements here.
Yes T5 and MH are mature lighting systems. But it took efforts of many to get it there. These same efforts need to occur in the LED space. Saying it is the users problem will not get us to where we all want LED's to be.
As hobbyist we must continue to push for better we are keeping live animals and they are under our care. It is our responsibility to provide them with an environment which they can live and grow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
biecacka
Active member
Ron, I agree that they are expensive if you go name brand. I mentioned radions because someone mentioned Sanjay's tank and that is what he runs.
For me, I spent $40 on the reflector and 75$ on the ballast. Way cheaper than even e cheapest led to light my footprint. But I did some bargain shopping too.
I also think that when ppl start putting 6-10 led fixtures on a tank, electrical savings go out the window. When I ran rapidled kits on my tank I ran 4 of them and they required more electrical useage than my single halide does. But that is just me, I also know that I might have to switch to the 400 and raise it up a bit to increase spread as things grow.
Under no circumstances am I saying leds don't grow, they clearly do and they do it well. For me I like the simplicity of plugging in my lights and not having to guess if it's e right spectrum. So if I switch back to leds one of my "Must Haves" will be proven (term used loosely) pre programmed spectrums in them and most fixtures are starting to feature these.
Corey
For me, I spent $40 on the reflector and 75$ on the ballast. Way cheaper than even e cheapest led to light my footprint. But I did some bargain shopping too.
I also think that when ppl start putting 6-10 led fixtures on a tank, electrical savings go out the window. When I ran rapidled kits on my tank I ran 4 of them and they required more electrical useage than my single halide does. But that is just me, I also know that I might have to switch to the 400 and raise it up a bit to increase spread as things grow.
Under no circumstances am I saying leds don't grow, they clearly do and they do it well. For me I like the simplicity of plugging in my lights and not having to guess if it's e right spectrum. So if I switch back to leds one of my "Must Haves" will be proven (term used loosely) pre programmed spectrums in them and most fixtures are starting to feature these.
Corey
pleasants9
Member
Awesome thread, thanks for all the input! I think I am going to go the tried and true MH/T5 combo option unless I find an LED system that really appeals to me. Now to figure out what kinda of controller is best!
Folks often talk about the shading problem from LED. Any point source light has this potential problem. MH addressed it with larger refectors, LED with line source designs. Some LED, like the Kessils, remain problematic; so you either need more fixtures than you thought or supplementation with a line source light. I had no issues growing most SPS in my 265 under a pair of reefbreeders photon 32 lights. Adding a bunch of Kessils is better, but not that much better.
Wazzel
New member
Yes and no. LED units will grow any corals as well as any of the other light sources, if you got them set up and running "correctly". You need to look at the pros and cons and see what works for you and your situation. I have run tubes, MH and LED. I have been the happiest with LED.
zooman72
New member
No falsehoods on my part anyone is welcome to come to my house and put their hand on MH fixture. If you had went to MACNA you could have put our hand on the Reefbrite 250 watt fixture they had been running during the show.
Yes there can be heat transfer if you mount the fixture right on the top of the water. Mine is 10" off the water.
Again, it is simple physics - MH radiates heat AND light into the aquarium, no matter what is to be claimed otherwise. There is no "can" - it does.
"Metal halides aren't really "plug and grow" either - many hobbyists have bleached corals under MH's."
Not as many as those under LED's An it really isn't as hard to set up a MH fixture.
Do you have the numbers involved? How about that when MH came out that there were far fewer hobbyists keeping reef aquariums? It really isn't that hard to set up an LED system either, as long as the user does some "homework", same as early MH users.
"Shading does actually occur with MH too, and is highly dependent on the reflector size, plus lots of MH users also supplement w/ T5. LED shading (and especially spread) can be mitigated in smaller form-factor fixtures by simply raising the fixture higher above the aquarium."
Not near to the rate as LED fixtures as one raises the fixture the lenses that the new LED's are using change the angle. There is confusion as to what and how to run a LED fixture.
No, the angle does not change when one raises the fixture, the spread simply increases. Just because you seem to be confused does not mean every single hobbyist, or even the majority, is. Some people simply want a simple on/off light and more traditional tech (which is fine), but to claim MH is the best light ("one size fits all") and then try to game the argument in your favor by creating false statements will do just as much damage to new hobbyist as the "difficulty" in using LED tech.
People add t5's MH to bring out colors just as LED users turn up the blue on their lights to bring out colors. This doesn't help in anyway to grow corals it just is for those would what the neon colors of the corals to shine.
T5's are also typically added for a gradual lighting schedule (i.e. sunrise/sunset) and to cut down on shading with smaller reflectors.
"Fail to see your point, other than a rant against LED's."
Well you saw this past summer a ton of G$ radion sold Even Sanja got rid of his and add even more to his tank than he had before. It is not blaming the manufacturer's. It is pushing them to make a better lamp. a row of LED's and slapping them in a metal case does not take a lot of effort.
My concern is the new hobbyist that buy's one of the approved LED's and does his work and keeps his water quality up and does every thing you want him to do and still can not grow corals. He is then left to think that he is a failure. Because he used LED lights and everyone else is growing corals out of their tanks but I can not. So they leave the hobby the long this continues the less hobbyist there will be.
I teach new hobbyist and help at my local LFS to make hobbyist successful. I am not going to let a new hobbyist fail because he spent a bunch of money and it just is not working for him. In 99 percent of new hobbyist case that I work with we go thru all the elements of the tank water chemistry and lighting. I set up LED's with a PAR meter and we adjust it correctly.
I let the new hobbyist use LED's but if the call me 6 months later with problems and I we do a investigation on what is could be the cause.
An they change their tank to run T5 lights or MH the problem goes away.
An they start to have success.
Rant #2 - many of us help new hobbyist, and if you think having them all start out with MH is the solution, then you are a poor teacher. Simply changing their light magically solves all of their issues? Seriously? How do you explain the success of so many LED users, including those new to the hobby? You can't, and ignoring that is purposely wrong.
"Plain BS - light is just one thing necessary for coral growth, and most LED fixtures provide plenty of light in the correct wavelengths. To claim otherwise is just plain silly."
So run a test put to of the same corals in two tanks at the same time running on the same sump. One using MH and one using LED. Which will grow a coral faster? Answer MH how do I know I did it. Have you done this test?
Actually I have (I am a college professor), and so have several others, and guess what they came up with? While it depends on which coral is being grown, spectrum is more important than source, which means that LED's can and do grow coral just as well as MH and T5.
"You claim to have been in the hobby for some time, yet you consistently (over several threads) fail to appreciate the history of aquarium lighting, which has been pointed out by others. MH took quite a while to reach the current state, and is by no means the perfect "one size fits all" solution. "
I don't have to claim it I can show it.
People buying LED's today are not pushing for better. They are saying these are great lights and so we have to add T5's to our tank to make the corals grow good so. So what if we have to cover every inch of our tank with LED's to go full LED. Hobbyist need to push the industry to do better. I want to see LED's work for everyone. They are not at that level yet and hobbyist need to complain to companies not say those that say they are not their yet are lying and making things up. That is not doing the hobby any good.
All of that experience, and yet you continue to make spurious statements (one must cover every inch of the aquarium with LED's), and again claiming the companies involved are "nefarious" (i.e. they are lying). This is why I responded to you - you claim to be a seasoned expert, and yet you posture and argue as if you have a vendetta. This is also not doing the hobby any good.
"...many companies does provide schedule/ intensity templates to hobbyists to aid is the use of their fixtures."
There should be no need for Schedules the research that companies do should inform them of where the levels should be and yes I know I have Radion's Kessils and black boxes in my box of used equipment. I do lighting and color testing in my line of work. I calibrate lighting for color grading of products. I have been in the field for 40 years now. So lighting is nothing new to me and one of the reasons I have been involved with the hobby so long.
Wow, you again claim so much experience and knowledge, and yet insist that the LED firms should not aid users in their use? With such a flexible fixture type that can be used over many different aquarium sizes? With the rise of "nano" aquariums in the reef world, how well will MH help a newer hobbyist with a smaller aquarium?
As has already been stated here and elsewhere (many times over), there are pros and cons to every fixture type - this is what should be disseminated to both newer and seasoned hobbyists, not that one is superior to the others, no matter what.
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zooman72
New member
Thanks Ron - your reply was much more succinct too! :beer:
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