Has LED surpassed Halides?

[zooman72]

I do love how people use the data/info/knowledge from Dr. Joshi differently depending on perspective. If it supports your argument, it is empirical fact. If not, then it is anecdotal. All that I know is that he had to replace 3x400W metal halides with the same wattage of LEDs on his same system - I was there and heard it with my own ears.

There is no gray area - it was his personal observations on one aquarium. It simply does not meet the standard for scientific "empirical" fact, no matter who it is from. It is therefore anecdotal by definition, just as my earlier example is above. I have spoken to Dr. Joshi, and have seen his aquariums (visiting Penn State for research, and coming from PA), and they are quite nice, but not a single standard of excellence - there are simply a whole lot of really excellent aquariums out there now, using various lighting technologies.

I do think that it is important to know the difference between the sale figures of really-good and so-so offerings on the market. If the figures are going to be offered, they need context. There is little that can be more important. I might use a LED system if I had to guess at which temperature my next MH bulb might come out (you could buy three bulbs from three different batches and they all looked different) or replace eBallasts ever year. The difference is just as important as a strip of .25W Chinese LEDs from eBay will not perform like a good panel will. I guess that if this is not important, then we should look at Aquarium Pharm's numbers on how people have stopped buying protein skimmers based on units sold of Skilters and SeaClones.

Why would Chris @ CoralVue lie, or exaggerate? His company sells both (with high-end offerings mixed in with mid-point ones), and he has been around a while - I doubt he would risk his reputation.

There is no need to "guess" with LED anymore - too many have used most of the common offerings, and templates are common. If one wishes simplicity, that is fine, but to denigrating LED's for offering flexibility seems short-sighted, as has already been mentioned in this thread. If one wants simple, there are a multitude of fixtures to choose from. It just seems to me that people keep "moving the goalposts" on each side to strengthen their own argument.

What is the matter with anecdotes? Isn't that all that we have to offer.

There is nothing wrong with anecdotes, as long as it is recognized that they are not definitive proof by themselves, but merely partial evidence at best.

 

[ReefCowboy]

I wonder how long will we see radium bulbs still being made? Radium bulbs gone would mean definitely the end for that type of lighting.
I used to hear rumors of it going away, I guess not?

 

[dartier]

This argument is well on its way of settling itself. Where are the manufacturers focusing their research dollars, in MH or LED? I will give you a hint, one technology is being actively developed and the other is dying a slow death. Keeping in mind that reefers are the tiniest, slimest fraction, of what a typical manufacturer would consider a viable user base, then we are forced to ride on the coattails of innovation pursued for other markets. Unless there is a renaissance of MH for larger mainstream markets, then the support of MH for reefing is only going to go one way, down.

Back to the OP's question, I think LEDs are well on their way to passing MH as the LED manufacturer have finally realized that point source lighting is not a good solution. Much like a MH with no reflector would be a poor reef light. As the panels start to become more grid based like the Philips Coral Care, you will see that reefers never look back and MH will truly be surpassed.

Dennis

 

[HaroldT]

This argument is well on its way of settling itself. Where are the manufacturers focusing their research dollars, in MH or LED? I will give you a hint, one technology is being actively developed and the other is dying a slow death. Keeping in mind that reefers are the tiniest, slimest fraction, of what a typical manufacturer would consider a viable user base, then we are forced to ride on the coattails of innovation pursued for other markets. Unless there is a renaissance of MH for larger mainstream markets, then the support of MH for reefing is only going to go one way, down.

Dennis

PFO said the same thing when they released Solaris 10 years ago and we are still having the debate. I'll stick to using metal halides.

 

[jason2459]

What ever happen to that plasma light?

 

[biecacka]

Halides, Becker skimmers, downdraft skimmers =oldies but goodies. Not broken, no need to fix it.
Others work, but so does some old technology. I love my radium, and get great growth from it. I don't mind buying a bulb every 14 months or so.

Corey

 

[ca1ore]

It kept my heater running a lot more than I expected and negated the savings I had anticipated. Many have had similar experiences and this is often over looked.

Also depends a lot on where you live, or how warm you keep your house When I switched to LED a few years back, I attempted to calculate the net energy savings and just ended up giving myself a headache. BTW, its not just that your tank heaters run more in the Winter, so does the house heating. In my case, negating the need for an 8 month chiller ended up carrying the day, though not to quite the net degree than I might have expected.

 

[Ou8me2]

It really depends on the setup and many factors. If you have an electronic MH ballast the electrical savings is almost nothing compared to LED. The heat issue can be an issue depending on your setup.

I have 2- 400 Watt MH on my 75-gallon reef and heat isn't much of an issue to me. I have a tall canopy which the MH are 14 inches from the water. I have a clip on fan which blows the heat around and out of the canopy. I can put my hand at the water surface and the heat is minimal.

I keep my place about 68 degrees in the winter. The heater runs very little during the day when the lights are on and it runs more at night once the lights go off. My tank temperature stays between 77-78 degrees at any point throughout the day.

LED's tend to run cooler cause they have fans on them and most people don't mount them in a canopy either. So the air isn't trapped in a confined space as much. Also, I would say these manufacturers of the high-end LED fixtures make more on them vs MH.

I wonder though how long these LED fixtures will last before they start losing par? Clearly, LED's won't last forever.

 

[moondoggy4]

new better

new better

This argument is well on its way of settling itself. Where are the manufacturers focusing their research dollars, in MH or LED? I will give you a hint, one technology is being actively developed and the other is dying a slow death. Keeping in mind that reefers are the tiniest, slimest fraction, of what a typical manufacturer would consider a viable user base, then we are forced to ride on the coattails of innovation pursued for other markets. Unless there is a renaissance of MH for larger mainstream markets, then the support of MH for reefing is only going to go one way, down.

Back to the OP's question, I think LEDs are well on their way to passing MH as the LED manufacturer have finally realized that point source lighting is not a good solution. Much like a MH with no reflector would be a poor reef light. As the panels start to become more grid based like the Philips Coral Care, you will see that reefers never look back and MH will truly be surpassed.

Dennis

It used to be that refrigerators and washing machines lasted until you got sick of looking at them and then you bought a new one, now they last up to the day the warranty runs out. So since they are now selling more appliances that means they are more innovated. I guess leds are suppose to last 10,000 hours but funny they're warranty is not that long. Maybe the reason they are selling more coming from Chris aka Coralvue is that either they are not lasting or not fulling what people think they want or expect.

I have MH and yes I am in an expensive state for electricity. Once you buy a M80 ballast they last until you get sick of looking at them, bulbs once a year so no money there, I guess not innovated enough.

Every manufacture wants there phone to ring and have product fly off the shelf, so Leds is doing that for some. I am cheap and buy my MH for a dime on a dollar and I love the look. I cannot wait to get my 250 radiums up and running I am now using 14k Phoenix's now. I am sorry I am not trying to single anybody else I am just furthering the discussion.

 

[Ron Reefman]

And so many MH and t5 supporters talk about how hard it is to get led fixtures set right. It makes me laugh out loud!

For several years now the common advice has been start with lower power settings and set the blue at 2 or 3 times more than the white (flavor the shade of white to your taste). Then bump them up some until you get about 70-90% blue and 30-50% white. From there you are pretty much good to go. If that's too hard for you to deal with, maybe keeping a reef tank isn't something you should be dealing with. You'll probably end up with water all over your floor!

 

[ktownhero]

Isn't that an oxymoron :lol: ? I'd actually argue that the only way to have something work for (almost) everyone is by having it customizable (configurable realły). I've also argued that the sellers of LED lights ought to be clearer about beginning settings. Trouble with that, of corse, is that with all the fly-by-night sellers, they don't have the foggiest idea of what those settings are.

I agree that a large part if the problem is 'user error' and that as an established and mature tech, halides are 'safer'.

I have little doubt that LED will become the dominant form of aquarium lighting, particularly as the halide stalwarts 'retire'.

It's an oxymoron with the way you are reading it, but that isn't what I meant. What I was trying to convey is that LED is a more advanced technology with more room for user error and that that is NOT a problem with LEDs themselves and shouldn't be talked about as such.

But what you are referring to is a great point, and yes I would agree with you.

 

[ktownhero]

Why shouldn't they work for everyone ?
So you are using user error as an excuse as to why a one hobbyist can not get good results. Shouldn't good companies take that into account.

I literally wrote that the good companies do... Gotta read the whole thing

Kessil Logic eliminates spectrum issues and Ecotech Radions offer scientifically tested presets. They have an entire scientific paper written on the presets they use and how growth patterns compare against T5s and MH.

 

[ca1ore]

It's an oxymoron with the way you are reading it, but that isn't what I meant.

I know, made me chuckle though because one could read it two ways.

 

[ifarmer]

I took advantage of this past BlackFriday sale and bought myself 16 new T5 bulbs for me to use for the next two years. I will think of LED in a couple of years if not more.

good thread.

 

[ca1ore]

I wonder though how long these LED fixtures will last before they start losing par? Clearly, LED's won't last forever.

It's a very good point. I bought a bunch of those LED night lights years ago. Advertised to last 25 years; what they didn't say was that 90% of the PAR was gone by the end of about 6 months. Comical.

I will say, though, that I have been running a RB Photon 32 for almost 3 1/2 years (at a max of 80%) and PAR with a meter is only down about 5%. I figure at that rate I'd replace them for better featured models before they fade appreciably.

 

[ifarmer]

I have not heard nor seen anyone saying after they switch from T5 or MH to LED and they was amazed at how fast the color and grow started to improve with their LED light. (if yes, can you please point me to that).

 

[Wazzel]

I have not heard nor seen anyone saying after they switch from T5 or MH to LED and they was amazed at how fast the color and grow started to improve with their LED light. (if yes, can you please point me to that).

My LED lit tanks are doing better than my VHO or Mh/VHO tanks ever did. I know it is antidotal and I did not switch to LED, I started with LED on my 60 and continued after the upgrade to the 120. It could be that I am just a better reef keeper after all these years.

LEDs work and work well. I have nice colors and great growth. The problems with LED is not with the hardware, but in the application and limited user knowledge. As the knowledge pool expands more people are having more success.

 

[C Dog]

I have not heard nor seen anyone saying after they switch from T5 or MH to LED and they was amazed at how fast the color and grow started to improve with their LED light. (if yes, can you please point me to that).

I had better color and faster growth with LEDs than MH. I had a rimless 14g BioCube with 150W MH. I switched to LEDs (with 40 degree optics) and everything exploded with growth on SPS frags. Im not saying that it will happen with everyone switching from MH to LEDs but that is my experience with them.

 

[ca1ore]

Bottom line is that properly implemented and used, T5 grows corals, MH grows corals, and LED grows corals. Lots of other things influence growth as well. Pick the lighting system that best meets your preference. I switched from MH/VHO to LED simply because I got bored and wanted to try something different. LED never gave me any reason to switch back. This is two years now under LED only. Could my tank have done better under MH, maybe; but it could also have done worse. The debate is really pointless.



I will say, without equivocation, that LED grow green hairy mushrooms better then MH. Whether that's a good thing or not, I leave to the reader. The only coral I've been unable to keep is purple monster, though I couldn't keep it under MH either :lol:

 

[cougareyes]

Not by a long shot, check out the lfs's in your area to see if they are sneaking back their mh and t5s. Two of the top lfs here are, I've seen the issues with their tanks over the last couple of years. I think they found out what I found out, in the long run there is still something missing in leds. I've used every form of lighting, and leds gave me more nuisance than every other source combined. Brilliant marketing though...