Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[Wally.B]

Doesn't that answer the question then? If there is no reaction when water is dumped in then it's a part of your topoff system that is contaminated with something that causes the skimmer to react.

OH, I wish the answer was that simple. The bucket I used for the RO water dump was the same bucket used for top up. (All that is left in the TOP UP system, is the NEW Clear Vinyl hose, and new Tunze top up pump).

I just forced a couple of top ups, by taking out some water from Sump.
Small reaction the first time. Second time nothing.

I just moved the top up hose a different delivery location in the Sump. Forced another top up. Nothing.

I agree it is something to do with the TOP UP system, since when it was offline (broken), issue went away.

 

[Wiskey]

Sorry,... I don't remember. Is this tank BB?

I had a bb tank once that I kept really clean and I had allot of trouble with the skimmer going crazy just like this. It wasn't till later that I discovered that I was actually running the water level too high (so it was always making some skimate, I didn't like seeing the skimmer without a head on it). When I started to dirty the tank up a bit, (and I think I added a SB but don't remember the exact timing) I turned the skimmer back and found I still got light colored skimate, I didn't collect as much, and the skimmer was really stable.

Whiskey

 

[Wally.B]

Tank is Sand Bottom.

What has kept me from moving skimmer higher, or lowering Sump water level is I have exactly the Same Skimmer in almost exactly the same sump setup on another tank.
Other tank is BB and doesn't have this problem.

Just did a checkup on the skimmer. The skimmer cup filled up clear again (even with RO hose in new location). RO bucket got lower, so there was a top up.

ARggggh!!

I'm going to lower the SUMP Water level. Easier then propping up the skimmer higher.

Also I'm going to got back to Manual top up for a bit. I hate doing that, but need to eliminate possibilities.

 

[Wally.B]

I was rethinking what I wrote and why don't you just borrow a skimmer from a friend and see if it works? Your skimmer sounds like its pretty finicky. Whats the brand and model?

The Skimmer is a EuroReef. It may be a bit too much for this 65 Gallon. However it will take the me long run once more load happens over time. Better to be BIT over, than under.

I actually have two (one in each tank), and as I mentioned I switched them around and the problem is related only to this tank. So changing skimmer is not the solution. I need to find the cause and resolve it. (I think I'm close).

Actually I like this skimmer, and the fact that it's finicky, which I would call sensitive is a GOOD THING.

Why is SENSITIVE good? We'll let's say you don't properly rinse you hands after handling soap, paint, or oil etc. This skimmer would quickly point this out, if I put my contaminated hands in the water. It's happened to me. A in-sensitive skimmer would allow you to continue to pollute your tank with your soapy hands. Bad thing for a SPS tank over time. (any tank for that matter)


It's reaction (over skim), means it's picking up some foreign substance and getting it out quickly, or reacting to a change in steady-state-water-condition. Nothing wrong with that. Actually Very good.

A crappy skimmer in this situation would continue to run happy, and not point out this issue.

So I'm not looking to find a skimmer that will ignore this problem in this tank. I actually did buy a skimmer (won't name brand) a few years ago. It took forever to skim a 1/8 of a cup. I then put this EuroReef in parallel and it skimmer a 1/4 DARK cup in a couple of day, while other barely got a film started. That skimmer is running my Quarentine, Holding tank. (Useless. I use it for water aeration).

Till now I've been playing around, here and there. But I will take a bit more systematic approach, when I have a bit more time, and find the root cause.

At this point my last adjustment to lower the sump water to lowest possible appears to be a bit better. 1/4 cup of wet skim over last night. (Not clear skim, but a bit yellow/green).

My next little experiment, is I'm going to run the TOP UP hose to my overflow box. That way the pure RO water will get mixed up, before reaching the sump. I'm also going to reduce the hose at the end, to trickle in the top up water.

Still, I don't want to mute the problem, if there is something foreign going into tank.
If it's just a overreaction to Clean RO water caused salinity changes. Fine. (but it can't be, since a gallon of RO water dumped in, does nothing).

 

[Wally.B]

GROWTH UPDATE (1 Month):

Nothing exciting here. Just a 1 month comparison (May-June)

I put exact same circles around Coral Pairs to compare where I see a bit of growth. Circles help you see the difference easier.

GREEN CIRLCE=[Some Growth[ RED=[Not much] YELLOW=[Some Color improvement].

PURPLE CIRCLE=[If I extrapolate the 1 month growth on the "Bird of Paradise Coral" it will be this big in 12 months]

BOTTOM PICTURE IS AFTER:

I think it's not bad for growth. A least compared to last year.

 

[Wally.B]

A Special Growth Notice:

After reviewing closely again, my 1 month growth Photo compares (above), this Coral Frag caught my eye.

What's special about this one is it hasn't really changed in "size" AT ALL for about a year.

And now after the nutrient increase, it has started growing in just a month.
It's actually starting to stem upwards at the base.

(Boring stuff for all the SPS Guru's out there).

But to me that is the most significant positive change thus far!!

Unfortunately, the price to pay (for growth with increased nutrients), at least for me, is the beginning of a algae & Cyano problem.
Look at the right side of the red circle (after Photo) for the Hair Algae patch. (Going to prune these outbreaks out this weekend)

To mitigate Algae problem early, I'm going to be building a Algae Scrubber for this tank. Very Soon!

For the starting Cyano problem I'm considering getting some "ZeoVit Cyano Clean". Anyone have good/bad results with it?
Maybe Carbon/Vinegar dosing?
Or plain stop feeding the corals addiatives, but I feel that has been a success factor, along with the fish waste.

I know folks have said the ugly stage is expected and it may pass. I'm a bit worried it can all get out of control.

 

[sahin]

Thats very nice improvement. There is clearly growth taking place. The others that havent started to grow yet; will soon enough...sometimes it takes months of good water conditions and SPS come alive.

As for the Cyano...I'd let it run its course. The tanks filtration needs to catch up. I'd rather have Cyano than Dinos for example. If you forcefully eliminate the Cyano, something else will turn up to take its place. For me, years ago it was dinos. once your system accustoms itself to the increased nutrients the Cyano will hopefully subside and disappear.

with regards to the skimmer issues...I'd pickup a different skimmer and see what happens. Some skimmers are sensitive and one little change and they overflow...maybe even borrow one from a buddy and see how it goes for a couple of weeks?

Keep the updates coming.

 

[Wally.B]

Overhead Photo for Future Reference:

I thought I'd add a overhead Photo to this Monthly Growth reference.

Last night I cut up the Dying Coral and put back a few healthy pieces.

 

[mattvisocky2003]

It looks like you are on track now, but since I have a similar sized system, 65 DT that has been running about a year, I figured we could compare notes. I have had some coral in for about 6 months, but did not really start getting dialed in until 2 months ago. Here are my parameters, a growth photo from just under 3 months, and a FTS. One thing I noticed is the drastic difference in coralline algae. Maybe you just clean a lot and I am dirty?

Ca 425
Alk 10.2
Mag 1430
Salinity 1.026
Phos .03
Nit 10

I run two hydra 52's and have an RLSS R6-i.
Also I dose around 22ml Ca and Alk per day. How much does your system use?

3/28/15


6/21/15


Excuse the frags lol

 

[Wally.B]

It looks like you are on track now, but since I have a similar sized system, 65 DT that has been running about a year, I figured we could compare notes. I have had some coral in for about 6 months, but did not really start getting dialed in until 2 months ago. Here are my parameters, a growth photo from just under 3 months, and a FTS. One thing I noticed is the drastic difference in coralline algae. Maybe you just clean a lot and I am dirty?

Ca 425
Alk 10.2
Mag 1430
Salinity 1.026
Phos .03
Nit 10

I run two hydra 52's and have an RLSS R6-i.
Also I dose around 22ml Ca and Alk per day. How much does your system use?

Excuse the frags lol

You don't need to pardon the Frags. I love your frag collection.
All look pretty healthy and colorful.

You got some really nice Coralline on your rocks. Not just rocks, Everything. Cool!!

I dose about 17 ml a day, each equally.

My Params are:
Ca 425
Alk 8.5
Mag 1450
Salinity 1.025
Phos .06
Nit 0.00

So did you every have any Cyano, or Green Algae issues?
Maybe Coralline Algae out competes the stuff.

I see one fish. Are there more?

What is your coral nutrient source?

 

[Wally.B]

SKIMMER UPDATE (YouTube video time, of the TOP UP & Skimmer Reaction) :

- So I dropped the level of the Water in the Sump (That kind of improved things)
- There still is a reaction to Top up, I even topped up into Overflow return and it reacted.
- So I added a reduction valve on the Top Up Hose. Slowed reaction down bit more.
- Working on more improvements and really finding the cause, but for now it might be manageable.

Here is the RO TOP UP and reaction on YouTube.
(You get to see it happen)
(See Both Sumps and Skimmers running, and the More Mild Reaction, after recent changes.)

http://youtu.be/AGwHq9Y6xz0

Much better than Still Photo's, and me explaining.

Enjoy.

 

[Sawdonkey]

Time to Frag or Toss this Dying Coral:



All corals fine, except for this one.

If it's a disease or parasite, then best to get rid of bad parts, before it spreads.



Appears to be dying bottom up, so somewhat healthy tips, should make a few nice frags. (Will triple dip after fragging and put back).

This entire coral looks dead to me. I saw it many posts ago when you showed the color comparison. Your second pic showed it really white and the third pic you said it was coloring up. To me, it looked dead in the second pic and it was coloring up with algae growth in the third. The pic above looks really dead.

That said, I've read this whole thread and you've made nice progress.

 

[sahin]

SKIMMER UPDATE (YouTube video time, of the TOP UP & Skimmer Reaction) :

- So I dropped the level of the Water in the Sump (That kind of improved things)
- There still is a reaction to Top up, I even topped up into Overflow return and it reacted.
- So I added a reduction valve on the Top Up Hose. Slowed reaction down bit more.
- Working on more improvements and really finding the cause, but for now it might be manageable.

Here is the RO TOP UP and reaction on YouTube.
(You get to see it happen)
(See Both Sumps and Skimmers running, and the More Mild Reaction, after recent changes.)

http://youtu.be/AGwHq9Y6xz0

Much better than Still Photo's, and me explaining.

Enjoy.

Watched the video. Have the topoff water run into the blue bucket, rather than into that little container. I reckon that little container has lots of fines/detritus...when the topoff water runs into the little container, it must be causing the detritus/fines to stir and come out, causing the skimmer to have issues.

Try it and let us know if that works.

 

[stickleback]

. One thing I noticed is the drastic difference in coralline algae. Maybe you just clean a lot and I am dirty?

Ca 425
Alk 10.2
Mag 1430
Salinity 1.026
Phos .03
Nit 10

The difference in the coralline Algae is most likely to do the the difference in your Alk levels. 10.2 to 8.2. Higher Alk = more Coralline

 

[Wally.B]

SKIMMER Short Term Fix:

- So Skimmer Over Skimmed again overnight.-
-Time to do something about this, since I don't like all these water top ups for my Water Chemistry (Salinity) Stability..
- Who every heard of Filtering RO water with TDS=0. Anyway, this appears to work for now.
- If this doesn't work, then it's something in my SUMP.

Self Explanatory.....

 

[Wally.B]

Salinity Level (Adjustment/Recovery Time):

So the RO top-up "diffuser/filter" fix appears to be working (at least for now). We'll see overnight and next couple of days.

Since I have a bit of confidence, I need to bring up my Salinity back to 1.025, since it has dropped to 1.023 with all the unstable RO top ups VIA skimmate removal and not evaporation.

Someone provide me this great Tool/Calculator for Salinity Adjustments via TOP UP method.

- You plug in how much water you tank has.
- You plug in what your tank salinity is

- You plug in the target salinity you want in your tank.
- It will calculate based on a top up bucket (size in Gals), what Salinity the TOP up water should be.

Thus you top up slowly based on Tank Evaporation, and at the end of the bucket, your salinity is at Target.

You CANNOT use the CALCULATOR for water change salinity adjustments, since in water changes you are removing salt with the water.

I used it before and it works (Dead ON accurate).

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/SaltwaterTopOff.php

 

[Wally.B]

Skimmer , Lighting Update and new Water Params:

So things are back to normal with the skimmer!!

Skimming like it should be (Semi wet-dry, and stable). Daily like below:

- Can NOT really say I know what exactly solved it, but this is was I did.
---------> Lower the water in Sump
---------> Changed the RO Hose with a Food Grade RO line
---------> Reduce the TOP up Flow Rate on Tunze by dropping the voltage to pump.
---------> The RO Filter/Diffuser (difusing may have helped)

Since I am no longer struggling with skimmer I'm back to normal Tank Life.

My VHO bulb was end of life, and I was due for a bulb overhaul.

It was always 1x VHO Actinic bulb at front of tank (Internal URI bulb reflector)

Replaced it with two T5 Bulbs (1 DIY reflector made from Bent Sheet Metal Stud, and 1 T5 clip on Reflector)
This time Front and back coverage.

Here is comparison of Before and After (VHO to T5) change .

OLD 1x VHO Only Look.

NEW 1x T5 Actinic (Front)

NEW 1x T5 Actinic (Front)
NEW 1x T5 Purple Plus (Back)

Photo's don't give the improvement justice, but I'm really happy with the change.

The only concern about the Purple Plus bulb is that it has more red light, which could fuel more algae growth.
To counter this, I'll be running it less (Prime Time viewing time only), since it's on a separate ballast.


NEW WATER PARAMS:
Since I've had time to get back to water Chemistry (no skimmer issue) here are observations:
- I put back the RhowaPhos Reactor (Phosphate drop down to 0.01 from 0.06)
- Recent Mag test, showed Mag dropped first time in a while, down to 1200 (brought it back up to 1350)...Must be improved SPS growth.

So as per way back in the Thread (POST #24), a member suggested a Calc, Mag, Alk formula of (x3) (x15) for maximum SPS growth.

With Mag down from 1450, I can now apply it.

Current TANK Parameters:
MAG=1350
ALK = 9.0 (1350/15 / 10)
CALC = 450 (1350/3)

We see how this works for Next Months Comparison.

 

[Myka]

In regards to your algae issue, you mentioned the addition of one large Turbo snail. Did you add anything else? What is your current clean up crew population? I've found in the case of algae problems, people often hugely underestimate the importance of a suitably-sized clean up crew, or rather that people oten have clean up crews that are too small for the requirements of their system.

 

[swk]

Why did you decide to lower nutrients? I'm confused as I thought you were seeing improvements since letting them raise a bit?

 

[markalot]

I'm interested to see what happens now that you have pulled p04 down to very low levels again after just getting them back up from the extra feeding. When I put GFO in my tank, I had a coral lose all polyp extension and die within 1 day. It stayed colored up for awhile but slowly withered away. I pulled gfo off a day after I saw the polyp extension go away and everyone's happy since. I used 1/2cup for a 120+20g sump.

It would be nice if we know what exactly caused this reaction. I have a PO4 leeching issue and I've used 3/4 cup GFO (150+30g sump) to drop PO4 from .1 down to < .03 without issue. I wonder if something else in the water has to be limited or off for a PO4 drop to hurt corals? My KH at the time was around 7.