Host anemones allopathic interactions

[OrionN]

Gary
Dead fish, flesh, rupture cell, what ever food you feed the tank spill their inner contents. Even flake food which was alive at sometime and preserved. That is what gives off when foot hit the water. These chemical get degrade very quickly. That is what I mean when I said decaying stuff. Yes, Fish and anemone can smell it in the water because it will be gone in the mater of hours if not quicker. Every time you add food, it will be there and gone in a hour or less (I guess).

I believe that coral and anemone have chemical cue that cause them to ingest something. Get a dirty piece of glass and they will attach and stick to it but a clean glass container and they will not attach to it. I am not sure if this has anything to do with what we discussed. I know that animal, anemones use and sense chemical in the water for communication and locating mates and enemy. I do not dispute that they can detect move to and sometime make war, contact open war, with other anemones and other animals in the wild.

What I don't think happen are 2 things
1. They don't do distance chemical warfare because it cannot possibly be effective in open ocean thus never evolve as a offensive or defensive measure. This does not happen in the wild and does not happen on purpose in aquarium. Sick and stressed anemones may release chemicals into the water due to loss of integrity, not to fight another anemone a foot away and not touching it. Due to the close nature of our system, this may have adverse affect on other anemone, fish or another animal.

2. Chemicals and pheromones that they use to locate mate or enemy in nature does not operate in aquarium because the chemical used for this purpose are potent and highly stable. These chemical when release will be saturated in our tank, a close system that does not have effective methods in remove them (diluting in the wild, not breakdown). They do breakdown but much slower. The chemical gradient that animal use to tell which direction the mate or enemy is at and thus navigate is due to diluting, not breakdown of these chemical

I am not sure if you not understand what I dispute or just not agree with it.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

There is no question about warfare between animals on the reef. Especially between different species competing for space. But those anemones in that video are not stinging each other. It would be immediately evident if they where. I think in this instance and with these two species there is some other advantage to this behavior. Has anyone observed anemones of the same species moving together in aquariums or is it just different species?

Paul- have you never had one of your anemones sting a neighboring coral or anemone? The damage being done is usually NOT immediately evident.

 

[OrionN]

I disagree with Gary again here. The damage is immediately noticeable when two anemones sting each other.

 

[OrionN]

There is no question about warfare between animals on the reef. Especially between different species competing for space. But those anemones in that video are not stinging each other. It would be immediately evident if they where. I think in this instance and with these two species there is some other advantage to this behavior. Has anyone observed anemones of the same species moving together in aquariums or is it just different species?

Mine did not move together but stay together because I put them there. I have small tank with multiple species so space is at a premium. I know that Maxi-Mini and Gigantea touching each other for months with no injury problem or fighting.
One time when my Gigantea and Malu were close enough to touch. The tentacles retract quickly and stay retracted on both anemones. My interpretation of this is that they are fighting actively. I separate put a tile in between them. Later I move the rock with gigantean on it to the other side of the tank.
IME, when two animals in our reef attack each other, the polyp of the loosing side always retracted then the tissue slough off the next day. The damage is obvious and observable to me.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Gary
Dead fish, flesh, rupture cell, what ever food you feed the tank spill their inner contents. Even flake food which was alive at sometime and preserved. That is what gives off when foot hit the water. These chemical get degrade very quickly. That is what I mean when I said decaying stuff. Yes, Fish and anemone can smell it in the water because it will be gone in the mater of hours if not quicker. Every time you add food, it will be there and gone in a hour or less (I guess).

I believe that coral and anemone have chemical cue that cause them to ingest something. Get a dirty piece of glass and they will attach and stick to it but a clean glass container and they will not attach to it. I am not sure if this has anything to do with what we discussed. I know that animal, anemones use and sense chemical in the water for communication and locating mates and enemy. I do not dispute that they can detect move to and sometime make war, contact open war, with other anemones and other animals in the wild.

What I don't think happen are 2 things
1. They don't do distance chemical warfare because it cannot possibly be effective in open ocean thus never evolve as a offensive or defensive measure. This does not happen in the wild and does not happen on purpose in aquarium. Sick and stressed anemones may release chemicals into the water due to loss of integrity, not to fight another anemone a foot away and not touching it. Due to the close nature of our system, this may have adverse affect on other anemone, fish or another animal.

2. Chemicals and pheromones that they use to locate mate or enemy in nature does not operate in aquarium because the chemical used for this purpose are potent and highly stable. These chemical when release will be saturated in our tank, a close system that does not have effective methods in remove them (diluting in the wild, not breakdown). They do breakdown but much slower. The chemical gradient that animal use to tell which direction the mate or enemy is at and thus navigate is due to diluting, not breakdown of these chemical
I am not sure if you not understand what I dispute or just not agree with it.

filtration, water changes (etc.) are our means of dilution in closed systems

1)when introducing a new anemone into an established anemone's aquarium you can often see an immediate reaction in the established Actinarian
2)sometimes one of the anemones will make a direct path beeline at warp nine "anemone speed" (slow!) to the other animal. Depending on species it might be aggressive
3)based on captive observations I believe that sea anemones common to reefkeeping have metabolites (allelopathic and otherwise) that can be sensed by other reef animals (especially other anemones)
4)it's a known fact that these animals can physically deploy defensive counter measures and they do not need to physically touch one another to cause harm to one another

I watched as my haddoni chased Macrodactyla all over my 220 before giving up. Stichodactyla tapetum may touch with gigantea, haddoni and mertsensii with no ill effect. (Closely related).

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I disagree with Gary again here. The damage is immediately noticeable when two anemones sting each other.

I totally disagree.

Easily witnessed in your LFS holding multiple species together in the same 40 breeder. "Oh look, they're getting along just fine"!
Not all anemone warfare is conducted with tentacles.

We all know how many months it takes for an anemone to brush against a coral in order to kill it.

 

[OrionN]

......
4)it's a known fact that these animals can physically deploy defensive counter measures and they do not need to physically touch one another to cause harm to one another

......

I either not dispute or have no comment on all of your other statements on this post other than the above. Do you have any information or leads that I can read about this occurrence in the wild?

 

[OrionN]

I totally disagree.

Easily witnessed in your LFS holding multiple species together in the same 40 breeder. "Oh look, they're getting along just fine"!
Not all anemone warfare is conducted with tentacles.

We all know how many months it takes for an anemone to brush against a coral in order to kill it.

We just have to disagree here. Experienced reef keepers like us, you me and a lot of the people in this discussion, are not novices or non reef keepers. You tell me that two anemone fighting, or two animal in our reef fighting and you cannot notice it for a day or two later? It may not be obvious to someone who does not know my animal, but the retraction and withdraw is obvious to me right away.

It may be many months to kill the colony, but the effect on the polyp it touch and sting is immediate.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I either not dispute or have no comment on all of your other statements on this post other than the above. Do you have any information or leads that I can read about this occurrence in the wild?

In captivity or in the wild, what does it matter?

Bonsainut has the Shick book, I do not. Hopefully he will arrive here soon.
In the meantime, b-mastigophores are used both to capture prey and for defense in anemones.
The ciliary cone complex (which is responsible for discharge of nematocysts) is sensitive to mechanical and chemical stimulii. (ie: chemical stimulii = no physical touching necessary for this trigger!)
The ciliary cone complex is made up of a nematocyte that contains microvilli and a kinocillium. Microvilli are responsible for mostly chemical reception. Microvilli (the chemical receptors) are likened to taste buds on our tongues. (Shick, 1991)

I propose that anemones can "taste" one another

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

We just have to disagree here. Experienced reef keepers like us, you me and a lot of the people in this discussion, are not novices or non reef keepers. You tell me that two anemone fighting, or two animal in our reef fighting and you cannot notice it for a day or two later? It may not be obvious to someone who does not know my animal, but the retraction and withdraw is obvious to me right away.

It may be many months to kill the colony, but the effect on the polyp it touch and sting is immediate.

how can you even SEE a "sting" that is happening under an oral disc? The acrorhagi are on the upper column BENEATH the oral disc and are specifically designed for aggressive interactions with other anemones.
Not all altercations are blatantly obvious and/or fatal.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Anemones have powerful enzymes inside them (to dissolve food). Why wouldn't another anemone be able to taste those enzymes?

Furthermore- how come certain anemones attract fishes to them?
Ever notice how Haddon's anemone appears to emit some kind of fish attractant?

Even futher still- how can most fishes immediately recognize an anemone for the (stinging) threat that it is?

Did they read a textbook on how to identify anemones?

-OR-

PERHAPS there is some kind of chemical or physical clues being emitted from the anemone into the water column.
Geez- that sure would explain how Clownfish locate their proper host in a big wide ocean... !

 

[OrionN]

In captivity or in the wild, what does it matter?

Bonsainut has the Shick book, I do not. Hopefully he will arrive here soon.
In the meantime, b-mastigophores are used both to capture prey and for defense in anemones.
The ciliary cone complex (which is responsible for discharge of nematocysts) is sensitive to mechanical and chemical stimulii. (ie: chemical stimulii = no physical touching necessary for this trigger!)
The ciliary cone complex is made up of a nematocyte that contains microvilli and a kinocillium. Microvilli are responsible for mostly chemical reception. Microvilli (the chemical receptors) are likened to taste buds on our tongues. (Shick, 1991)

I propose that anemones can "taste" one another

In the wild or in aquarium have everything to do with our discussion. I guess we just not communication well.

These structures are use to inject toxin into prey or enemy. The chemical stimuli trigger that trigger then the prey or another anemoen is toughing it. They certainly cannot harm a prey 2 inches away. They shoot it off and the current just carry it away to destination unknow. Just like throwin stone up in the sky, it mostly likly fall back to the person who threw it. These weapon cannot be shoot toward an enemy. Either inject it directly or squirt it into the water. When it squit into the water, the closest target is itself.

It detect chemical on the other animal when it touch. These are close range inject into type of weapon.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

In the wild or in aquarium have everything to do with our discussion. I guess we just not communication well.

I thought we've established that water changes and aquarium filtration are the aquarist's feeble attempts at dilution as occurs in the wild?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

It detect chemical on the other animal when it touch.

agreed!

however... I believe one anemone can detect chemical of the other animal WITHOUT TOUCHING IT. In open ocean or aquarium

 

[BonsaiNut]

Some thoughts...

Much of this discussion depends on the species of the anemone. I am not aware of any specific work with clown anemones, but some examples of competition among anemones includes:

(1) Competition between clonal individuals of the same species
(2) Competition between non-clonal individuals of the same species
(3) Competition between different species of anemones
(4) Competition between anemones and other cnidarians
(5) Competition between anemones and other genera

Most of the work I have seen involves direct "physical" competition involving the development and use of catch tentacles, and / or direct competition using acrorhagi. In most cases they do not result in the death of either individual, but the "losing" anemone will move away.

There are also examples of habituation between competitors - where anemones placed in close proximity with one another compete, but if mutual destruction appears to be the outcome, will stop competing with one another, but still compete with strangers introduced later.

To make matters even more complicated, combativeness can be impacted by size, by substrate/environmental suitability, by population density, and by location tenure. Larger, established anemones of some species have been shown to attack sooner, and win more frequently than smaller individuals who wander into their "territory".

As far as indirect chemical reactions go, C. gigantea has been shown to release allelopathic substances that hinder algae growth, while A. elegantissima releases macromolecules into its local environment (of unknown purpose). I am certain there could be a lot more work available here, but I have not personally read/seen anything...

I am specifically avoiding stating "this is the case with clown anemones" because I am just not aware of any work that covers it. In most home aquaria there are many variables, and many uncontrollables, so that one person's experience may be very different from another's - for reasons not wholly understood.

 

[OrionN]

how can you even SEE a "sting" that is happening under an oral disc? ......

When an anemone got sting, it retracted, even uncer the oral disk

agreed!

however... I believe one anemone can detect chemical of the other animal WITHOUT TOUCHING IT. In open ocean or aquarium

Yes it can in the wild. Maybe when the new anemone gets in an aquarium but likely not once the anemone is in the aquarium for a period of time sue to sensory overload. How ever, it cannot attack unless in direct contact...
Never mind.



I was going to type a long reply point by point, but never mind. I am not going to change your mind and I am not going to change my mind unless there is clear objective evidence that there are chemical warfare in anemones in the wild. There is none.

Lets call a truce. I got other things to do and really got behing in my work today becasue of this thread.

 

[reefkeeper2]

Paul- have you never had one of your anemones sting a neighboring coral or anemone? The damage being done is usually NOT immediately evident.

My gigantea has stung many corals, most recently a sunset Milli frag. When my anemone has stung neighboring coral, I always see the tentacles stuck to the flesh of the other animal. The tissue turns white immediately. Polyp extension on the entire colony is non-existent. So I have to say I have never seen delayed damage due to anemone stings. Yes, it looks worse the next day, but the damage is clearly present from the start.
Looking at those anemones in the vid, I do not believe they were stinging each other.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

My gigantea has stung many corals, most recently a sunset Milli frag. When my anemone has stung neighboring coral, I always see the tentacles stuck to the flesh of the other animal. The tissue turns white immediately. Polyp extension on the entire colony is non-existent. So I have to say I have never seen delayed damage due to anemone stings. Yes, it looks worse the next day, but the damage is clearly present from the start.
Looking at those anemones in the vid, I do not believe they were stinging each other.

perhaps they were just sizing each other up or cuddling?

I've seen the behavior in that video before and the outcome isn't good.
EC- why'd you move the anemone?

 

[OrionN]

This is the anemone that start this thread. He was mangle almost 3 weeks ago and hardly regenerated much at all. I can see why cutting a Hadoni in two would almost certainly result in 2 dead frag of and anemone.

Here is the green Haddoni in the same tank. Was smaller but now bigger of the two.

 

[elegance coral]

Did the mag then stay on the pillar?

If I stayed up on water and carbon changes, the mag would stay on its pillar. For several days after a water and carbon change, the mag would not move at all. It would stand up, spread out, and look beautiful with the typical magnifica hourglass figure. As time passed, the mag would get more mobile, moving around on the pillar, and just not opening up as much or looking "happy". If I changed water and carbon this behavior would stop. If I didn't change water and carbon in time, the mag would go on a walk-about around the tank and generally look stressed.

EC- why'd you move the anemone?

Why did I move the mag away from the gigantea, or why did I move them all to different tanks?

I moved the mag away from the gigantea because I had worked very hard to keep them both healthy. I didn't want to see either one of them damaged or stressed due to this contact.
The fact that I can't detect any stress in that video is not evidence that there is none, or that signs of stress wouldn't show with longer exposure to one another. I've seen what both of these species can do to other sessile invertebrates, and it ain't pretty. Knowing the potential for damage, or loss of life, there's no way I would have left these two animals together like that.

I moved them all to different systems because it simply became to labor intensive, and expensive, to keep them all happy in the same system.