I engage in rampant unfounded speculation

[ca1ore]

This thread is about anemones that have bacterial infections that have developed resistance due to inadequate antibiotic therapy.

Drawing the conclusion that DD treats with antibiotics, and does so incompletely, based on, what, three or four specimens is absurd. I can think of at least a few other factors that may be the cause. As Peter notes, we don't even know for sure what kinds of bacteria infect these animals. Seems if the specimens were acquired within similar time frames that perhaps the particular infection was not effectively treatable with the meds on hand. Perhaps someone from DD will comment and end all this uninformed speculation.

Frankly I'm not even sure that a single, incomplete course of an antibiotic would be enough to cause resistance. I've seen folks here run two or three successive courses of the same antibiotic - surely that is even worse.

FWIW, LA animals are more likely to be exposed to low levels of meds than DD. Former come directly from Quality Marine which I believe runs non-therapeutic levels of copper in their fish systems. Who knows what may be in the invert systems.

Oh, BTW, my current mag came from DD!

 

[Reefahholic]

Again, you are assuming that they are actually treating them --- IMO, it would have been better off asking them first if they even treat them or not before claiming that they are failing to provide this info, there is a chance that they don't treat, so they are not failing to provide the info you want.

Don't see why a simple phone wasn't made.

Sure am.

I'll be emailing in a minute. Phone call tomorrow.

 

[Reefahholic]

Drawing the conclusion that DD treats with antibiotics, and does so incompletely, based on, what, three or four specimens is absurd. I can think of at least a few other factors that may be the cause. As Peter notes, we don't even know for sure what kinds of bacteria infect these animals. Seems if the specimens were acquired within similar time frames that perhaps the particular infection was not effectively treatable with the meds on hand. Perhaps someone from DD will comment and end all this uninformed speculation.

Frankly I'm not even sure that a single, incomplete course of an antibiotic would be enough to cause resistance. I've seen folks here run two or three successive courses of the same antibiotic - surely that is even worse.

FWIW, LA animals are more likely to be exposed to low levels of meds than DD. Former come directly from Quality Marine which I believe runs non-therapeutic levels of copper in their fish systems. Who knows what may be in the invert systems.

Oh, BTW, my current mag came from DD!

It's been a lot more than 3-4 specimens.

What's absurd is that you assume that this is all random chance.

I've been in the medical field long enough to know better.

MDRO MDRO MDRO.....

 

[Reefahholic]

Email sent....I have a feeling my questions will be side-stepped and answered indirectly. Guess we'll find out.

 

[OrionN]

I think we all should stand back and take a deep breath, those that are angry.
I do think DFS is a good company. I think they provide good healthy animals for us.
This company was started by two Vets. They know how to treat animals with antibiotics. I am not worry about them treating animals with antibiotic inappropriately.
They warranty anemones that they sell for 14 days. It does not make any sense to send out an animal that is sick, or incompletely treated. If for no other reason, with a 14 days warranty, they will not benefit from sending out sick animals. If the animal can be treat, it make much better financial sense to treat then put them on sale. Although I don't know this for sure, I would be surprise if they have been treating anemones all along, much earlier than the everyday reefers like us start to treat them.

While trying to search for how to treat these sick anemones, I came across various mentions of treating these anemones with antibiotics. No where I ever found any mention of how or at what dose. The antibiotic mentioned were far fetch and difficult to get for an average reefers and was not helpful.

It is not DFS I am worry about. I see the clear possibility that distributors, shippers and wholesalers keep low level antibiotics in their system. This would be bad for us end consumers. I read somewhere that some shipper and wholesaler recommended "nitro drip" for sensitive and sick animals (Nitrofurantoin is another antibiotic that can be use for treatment, IMO)

 

[ocellaris123]

Also do we know that all giganteas that show symptoms of a dying anemone are suffering from bacterial infection? Could be other factors at play here yet everyone believes the problems to be bacterial related.

 

[Reefahholic]

Your right. I believe that the distributors, wholesalers, or the actual Anemone Farmers in Indonesia/Asia/Vitenam, etc.. would be more likely to run low-level antibiotics, or terminate treatment too early. If you think about it, divers probably come in with 15-30+ anemones, put them all in same holding tank (maybe seperated with baskets) and dump low levels of antibiotics in the water due to the water volume being so large. It really wouldn't make sense that LADD would do something so sloppy. Like mention above, the company was started by vets who treat animals. I'm sure they've trained their employees well. I do believe they're treating and would like to get the details passed along if I spend $300-700 dollars buying an anemone. The two main reasons are the animals health, and being able to know where to start next. As I stated earlier in the thread..I think DFS is a great company and the best IMO. We just need more information.

Nuff said, I'll post email response when it comes in. Maybe they can shine some light about what takes place prior to their interception.

I think we all should stand back and take a deep breath, those that are angry.
I do think DFS is a good company. I think they provide good healthy animals for us.
This company was started by two Vets. They know how to treat animals with antibiotics. I am not worry about them treating animals with antibiotic inappropriately.
They warranty anemones that they sell for 14 days. It does not make any sense to send out an animal that is sick, or incompletely treated. If for no other reason, with a 14 days warranty, they will not benefit from sending out sick animals. If the animal can be treat, it make much better financial sense to treat then put them on sale. Although I don't know this for sure, I would be surprise if they have been treating anemones all along, much earlier than the everyday reefers like us start to treat them.

While trying to search for how to treat these sick anemones, I came across various mentions of treating these anemones with antibiotics. No where I ever found any mention of how or at what dose. The antibiotic mentioned were far fetch and difficult to get for an average reefers and was not helpful.

It is not DFS I am worry about. I see the clear possibility that distributors, shippers and wholesalers keep low level antibiotics in their system. This would be bad for us end consumers. I read somewhere that some shipper and wholesaler recommended "nitro drip" for sensitive and sick animals (Nitrofurantoin is another antibiotic that can be use for treatment, IMO)

 

[billsreef]

Why not just call or email them to find out if they medicate or not.

How are people supposed to speculate if they bother to get the facts first?

Also do we know that all giganteas that show symptoms of a dying anemone are suffering from bacterial infection? Could be other factors at play here yet everyone believes the problems to be bacterial related.

Your being all logical again. Logic just gets in the way all of the speculation and arguments based on wild guesses

 

[Reefahholic]

Hey bill, can you fly over to Indo or the Maldives and round us up about 5-10 green Gigantea's.

We could use a good diver. Apparently we need to send a reefer after the green's. They seem to be harder to get here lately.

 

[billsreef]

Hey bill, can you fly over to Indo or the Maldives and round us up about 5-10 green Gigantea's.

We could use a good diver. Apparently we need to send a reefer after the green's. They seem to be harder to get here lately.

I'd be happy to. Just need someone to finance the expedition

 

[SDguy]

I'd be happy to. Just need someone to finance the expedition

Two words, Bill:

Potato Salad.

 

[Reefahholic]

I'd be happy to. Just need someone to finance the expedition

Where is the best place to find gigs and mags in ur opinion?

Where need a divers prospective.

 

[Reefahholic]

Two words, Bill:

Potato Salad.

Wow, all we have to do is feed bill potato salad and he'll gig hunt for us?

 

[SDguy]

Wow, all we have to do is feed bill potato salad and he'll gig hunt for us?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/site/ct-potato-salad-kickstarter-huppke-talk-20140715,0,3397670.story

 

[Reefvette]

Divers Den vs LA

Divers Den vs LA

Divers Den Anemones are basically the really nice ones that are cherry picked by DD.

LA is a facility in Cali that basically sells like most other retailers, its what they have.

I dont beleive that DD anemones are treated. i dont beleive that any exporters are treating with antibitoics either because they have something called the ocean to keep them in. The sheer water volume of the ocean make it much easier for anemones to stay healthy

I have said in the past and will say it again, we have no clue what is going on inside these anemones. We know that some antibiotics works in healing but you also must remember that the process of collection for these anemones is absolutely brutal.

Bubbletips are much easier to off rock.
Haddoni's have to be dug out of sand and alot of times the foot may not a have a laceration but there is internal damage.
Mags have to be pryed off the rock and alot of times get internal damage
Mertens and gigantea same as well.

Also remember the process that the anemones go through, OCEAN to Holding Pen to Exporter to Wholesaler to retailer to home tank.

All of those place have different water, different lighting, different filtration, different water movement. LOTS OF STRESS.

The Director of LA/DD is a very dedicated to the healthy and well being of the all of the animals they sell. But he can not control the stress the animals go through before or after they get them.

 

[Reefvette]

Gigs and Mags are found all over the coral triangle there is no best location, what you should be looking for is the path of least stress.

 

[SDguy]

I've personally spoken to Kevin about LADD nems, as I recently began setting up my reef for them, and this thread has some bad info, and good info. It's not my place, IMO, to speak for him, so maybe he will chime in here when he has a moment, though I can't say I'd blame him if he didn't, considering....

 

[ca1ore]

It's been a lot more than 3-4 specimens.

What's absurd is that you assume that this is all random chance.

I've been in the medical field long enough to know better.

Apparently long enough to have forgotten all your Statistics, and the concept of statistical significance. And for the record, I've assumed nothing (can you say the same) simply observed that with a small, uncontrolled sample size drawing any kind of conclusion IS absurd. Occam's razor suggests that the theory with the least number of assumptions is better. It may ultimately be that your speculation proves correct, though I doubt it, but in the meantime is see no reason to belive there is anything at play here beyond 'random chance'.

Thread is increasingly pointless - make a call and ask!

 

[addictedreefer]

Although I believe bacterial infections are certainly at play in certain cases, I think they have become somewhat of a scapegoat if an anemone is not doing well. I think some here are too quick to jump on the antibiotic treatment as a cure-all and lose sight of the fact that gigs and mags are extremely delicate and sensitive animals that need near perfect conditions to survive.

 

[OrionN]

Although I believe bacterial infections are certainly at play in certain cases, I think they have become somewhat of a scapegoat if an anemone is not doing well. I think some here are too quick to jump on the antibiotic treatment as a cure-all and lose sight of the fact that gigs and mags are extremely delicate and sensitive animals that need near perfect conditions to survive.

I could not have said this any better.
I would think that bacterial infection is the problem in the majority of the cases, but not any where near 100%