increasing prices on hard to keep fish

"My heater broke and I am using a propane torch to heat the fish individually, is that OK?"..LOL. Paul everyone knows to use oxyacetylene not propane.
I think education is needed, starting from those in the hobby when we meet people interested in getting a tank to give them good advise and suggest proper research before blindly jumping into the tank purchase. Then the LFS staff should be willing to lose a sale if in the long run they gain a repeat customer instead of a quick dollar.
 
Sadly, that education doesn't happen. The margins that LFS run are often so slim that saying no to a sale can break the business - especially if you know that the customer is going to leave and give someone else their money for the very thing you told them no. Not say that this is a good situation, but it seems to be the reality.
 
Where are you given the right to own a pet? There are many restrictions on the kind of animals that can be kept, where they can be kept, how they are offered for sale, and what conditions they must be kept in.
 
Anything I can do by right of law is considered a legal right. Once that right has been taken away from the citizenry it is no longer a right. Thankfully the founders of the United States thought that way, historically you would be correct under the French and English monarchs, serfs only had what rights were expressly given to them by their lords.

I'll keep with the By the people, for the people and of the people mentality. Rather than the law needs to constrain every facet of individual liberty position.
 
Anything I can do by right of law is considered a legal right. Once that right has been taken away from the citizenry it is no longer a right. Thankfully the founders of the United States thought that way, historically you would be correct under the French and English monarchs, serfs only had what rights were expressly given to them by their lords.

I'll keep with the By the people, for the people and of the people mentality. Rather than the law needs to constrain every facet of individual liberty position.

I am not sure what you are getting at, or what rights you are talking about. Laws change all the time, by the people and for the people. If the people decide that laws regarding the import or keeping of reef animals should change how is that somehow against what the Founding Fathers thought?

There are many laws regarding animal ownership.
 
The fish tax
Mmmmm?

I wish the hobby/industry would willingly add a surcharge to animal purchases and then use that money for many things - education, COC reform, etc. At this point there really isn't a hobby central body that could administer such a thing, which I think is unfortunate.
 
Thales- yes I get that the profit margin is so tight that a lost sale can destroy the lfs. It's a shame that is the reality. Maybe part of ones dues to a club or MACNA(other events) could fund such an education program.etc
Pardon my novice question but what is CoC? I'm still learning terms in the hobby.
 
Thank you Thales. Still learning this hobby. I have to go to my LFS tomorrow to discuss some purchases for my 180 build. I'm going to ask their opinion on the subject just for giggles.
 
And what happens when anyone that wants to spend the time and money can breed rare angels or a rare wrasse like clowns are bred right now? 29$ peppermint angels from petco anyone? And If I have to pay a premium(tax) over what the market would normally charge me then most certainly someone going out with a "snorkel bob" and subjecting the reef to their Suntan Lotion slathered body should have to pay a "tax" above and beyond what they would normally pay. While i'm on a roll I think anything to make ones lawn less "natural" and more green should have quite a hefty tax on it too. I think the main issue here is where does the line get drawn and is there a better answer than pushing towards one extreme or the other?
 
It's a simple matter of age old economics vs government control. Is it better to let people negotiate their own prices, or Establish a Government board, hire employees, set regulations, enforce the regulations, increase taxes to pay for it. It is certainly justifiable for items that we can't live without, police, military, roads. But all Governments have a poor track record of efficiencies and when you can keep the "invisible hand" in control of the economy it's economically better off for everyone, just a matter of time until the current pendulum switches back to positive economic thought but how long we dreg this recession on by supporting Government interference is up for debate.

Protect the endangered, eliminate hazardous collection processes, yes: establish price ceilings absolutely not, look at the fuel shortages in the 70's or look at New York rent control policies in the early 1900's to see what happens when good feeling ignorance set's market prices. Your intentions are noble but egregiously erroneous.
 
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And what happens when anyone that wants to spend the time and money can breed rare angels or a rare wrasse like clowns are bred right now? 29$ peppermint angels from petco anyone?

We all get really happy because we get cheap fish? We pour more resources into reef local communities so they care for them and we always have some wild stock to fold into breeding projects?

And If I have to pay a premium(tax) over what the market would normally charge me then most certainly someone going out with a "snorkel bob" and subjecting the reef to their Suntan Lotion slathered body should have to pay a "tax" above and beyond what they would normally pay.

Absolutely. However, I think it is more important that we take care of our own industry so others have a much harder time blaming us for problems.

I think the main issue here is where does the line get drawn and is there a better answer than pushing towards one extreme or the other?

I think that is the point - if we don't draw our on lines someone else might do it for us. We don't need to push to extremes, we need to be reasonable.
 
It's a simple matter of age old economics vs government control. Is it better to let people negotiate their own prices, or Establish a Government board, hire employees, set regulations, enforce the regulations, increase taxes to pay for it.

Depends. Is the resource being extracted reasonably or in a free for all?

Protect the endangered, eliminate hazardous collection processes, yes: establish price ceilings absolutely not, look at the fuel shortages in the 70's or look at New York rent control policies in the early 1900's to see what happens when good feeling ignorance set's market prices. Your intentions are noble but egregiously erroneous.

You are are arguing against straw men. What I am talking about is protecting the endangered and curtailing poor handling and collection practices.
 
No you are absolutely not and that is the key.

Regulating prices is in no way directly related to the harvesting methods. Difficult to keep does not mean endangered. collection practices are not related to the sale price. I assume you mean by increasing the supply cost you will decrease demand. and I certainly agree with your ideals but increasing the price lends to tighter profit margins for the suppliers which in actuality decreases the proper collection practices. It is a noble idea but one that has failed consistently.

write the laws to deal with the methods not the end consumer.
 
No you are absolutely not


Yes I am.

and that is the key.

I think it is.

Regulating prices is in no way directly related to the harvesting methods.

I don't believe I ever said anything about regulating prices.

Difficult to keep does not mean endangered.

I don't believe I said it did.

collection practices are not related to the sale price.

Of course they are. Current retail prices of MO are at least partially based on how inexpensive it is to collect the animals (the other part is shipping, which can be argued to be part of collection costs). Juiced fish are cheaper at the retail level because it costs less to collect them. Fish caught with hand nets are more expensive because it costs more to collect them. Fish caught on rebreathers are more expensive because it costs more to collect them. It costs more to treat the animals better through the COC, and that cost effects sale price...which is part of the reason some animals are not treated better though the COC.

I assume you mean by increasing the supply cost you will decrease demand.

I am all for pricing responsibly handled fish what it costs to handle them responsibly. I don't think that will necessarily decrease demand. This is a luxury hobby, and people who have no problem spending hundreds or thousands on a new piece of equipment won't have much of a problem spending 30 dollars instead of 15 dollars on an animal. If pricing animals at price points that reflect the cost of responsibility collecting them prices people out of the market, people who get into the hobby and out in 18 months because they kill stuff and don't figure out what they need to do to keep animals alive long term...well that may be a good thing.

and I certainly agree with your ideals but increasing the price lends to tighter profit margins for the suppliers which in actuality decreases the proper collection practices. It is a noble idea but one that has failed consistently.

The only price I am talking about increasing is the cost it takes to responsibly handle the animals. If we are getting animals cheaply because corners are being caught and animals are dying in the process (but who cares because they are so cheap), then we have real ethical issues around the industry and hobby.
A great example of charging the actual cost of responsibly treating the animals is Live Aquaria Diver's Den where animals are treated and conditioned before offered for sale. This results in higher prices, but their business seems to not have suffered. And it is easy to see that paying 20% more for an animal that lives cost the consumer less than buying a less expensive animal 4 times because it doesn't live.

write the laws to deal with the methods not the end consumer.

Maybe. I feel however that since we are talking about live animals, not widgets, that we, the people who want to keep them, have a responsibility to see to it that they are collected and cared for well. A well constructed surcharge on the sale of animals could go a long way to fulfilling that responsibility in many ways.
 
We all get really happy because we get cheap fish? We pour more resources into reef local communities so they care for them and we always have some wild stock to fold into breeding projects?
How would we be pouring more resoures in to local reef communities if we don't actually need to put in any money to those economies to get the pretty fish we want? There is also a time coming when we will be able to power our entire home and our piece of the ocean with renewable energy(now possible but $$$)
Absolutely. However, I think it is more important that we take care of our own industry so others have a much harder time blaming us for problems.
I think that is being done already, and I think some of the other side of this debate like the environmental extremists, are actualy not altruistic and intellectually honest and are working more from a personal agenda. I don't believe that they would stop just like I don't think the ability to tank breed large amounts of rare species would stop collection of them in the wild.
I think that is the point - if we don't draw our on lines someone else might do it for us. We don't need to push to extremes, we need to be reasonable.
I think we need to find something that works universally for all involved. The need to be "reasonable" is moot.
 
My comments were in context with the OP and the thread title, with your last post I have no issues with the stated.
 
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