Interesting attack on Randy's two part

[Crit21]

Ok, let me try it a different way. We all know that the Holmes-Farley DIY method consists of 1) Measuring the beginning values of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium, 2) Calculating how much of each to add, 3) Adding the components indepently, and 4) Confirming the results by measuring each parameter again. The system works well, but is limited to those three parameters.

My concerns about the Balling method:

1. One comment I made earlier is that if you can't measure it, don't dose it. One of the Balling supplements is a cocktail of elements, including several heavy metals. Since there are no tests available to hobbyists for three of them (chromium, nickel and zinc), you can neither measure the initial values in the water before dosing, nor measure the values after dosing has occurred. How do you know if you're creating a toxic situation if there's no way of knowing how much is in the water???

2. The other downside of this component is that you can't control each element independently, because they're all in a single solution.

3. I've read testimonials that say you can observe dramatic changes in your corals in as little as several hours after starting to add the Balling supplements. That's scary, since a reasonable person would not want to change water chemistry so fast as to cause an observable change that quickly.

4. Rather than changing dosages based on measuring water parameters, the Balling method relies on tweaking dosage based on visual indications.

 

[Hookup]

Crit21, I think you are over-complicating the baling method. It is all about controlling the three params you list, Ca,Alk,Mg nothing more, nothing less and therefore shares many common goals and approaches with the 2-part system that RFH has spoken of at length.

If your saying trace elements should not be dosed, that is fine. It's a common enough point of view, but not really the point of baling. I do not think anyone implements the baling method for the trace elements, but I could be wrong.


The statement that "the baling method relies on tweaking dosage based on visual indications" is simply incorrect and I would recommend you review the method a bit more closely. The process you describe for generating a baseline and measuring still firmly applies and in all ways is identical between the two methods.


One last point. I'm not sure what salt you use, but it's loaded with many things we cannot test/measure. The quantities are tested and published for each salt, but over time you've no way of knowing what is building up or being depleted in your home system any better than guessing. If we are to follow the advise of "if you cannot measure it, don't dose it", we'd be hard pressed to find any usable salts for our systems.

 

[bertoni]

Yup.

 

[Crit21]

Crit21, I think you are over-complicating the baling method. It is all about controlling the three params you list, Ca,Alk,Mg nothing more, nothing less and therefore shares many common goals and approaches with the 2-part system that RFH has spoken of at length.

Yes, those three...and trace elements to include heavy metals.

If your saying trace elements should not be dosed, that is fine. It's a common enough point of view, but not really the point of baling. I do not think anyone implements the baling method for the trace elements, but I could be wrong.

No, what I meant to say was that indiscriminate dosing should only occur for those elements for which you can test.

The statement that "the baling method relies on tweaking dosage based on visual indications" is simply incorrect and I would recommend you review the method a bit more closely. The process you describe for generating a baseline and measuring still firmly applies and in all ways is identical between the two methods.

I'm having trouble finding that passage, but I'll keep searching until I find it.

One last point. I'm not sure what salt you use, but it's loaded with many things we cannot test/measure. The quantities are tested and published for each salt, but over time you've no way of knowing what is building up or being depleted in your home system any better than guessing. If we are to follow the advise of "if you cannot measure it, don't dose it", we'd be hard pressed to find any usable salts for our systems.

Yes, I'm aware of impurities in salt mixes; however, I would not use it as justification to add other substances to a reef system. Rather, I would use that as a reason not to add even more substances for which there is no test. It could end up compounding the issue.

 

[Crit21]

Further discussion on dosing trace elements can be found here: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2691. See the paragraph titled, Is the Balling method a definite improvement?

 

[bertoni]

The primary reasons two-parts are used seem to be cost and ease of use. I don't think anyone here can say that they are "better" than other approaches, for whatever better might mean. Randy's recipes don't include a trace element part. It's not clear that such a solution is useful if regular water changes are done.

So I don't understand what you think might be a problem, if anything.

 

[Dont Ask Me]

After reading this thread from the start my head hurts, but yet i am intrigued to learn more about balling and the 2 part method, could anybody provide some links to a beginner who would like to learn more?

 

[HighlandReefer]

For Randy's Two Part System (actually three part, since it includes magnesium):

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Dont Ask Me]

Thanks for the prompt reply.

 

[troyman]

prolly brightwell doing what it does best not much

 

[HighlandReefer]

One could throw a wrench into this discussion regarding the Balling Method and Randy's Two-Part System and the subject of heavy metals. Kalk water used as a supplement for calcium and alk will reduce the amount of heavy metals you add to your tank system much more then both of these Systems as long as it meets your demands. Randy actually uses kalk water for this & other reasons, as do I.

Unfortunately, little research has been completed regarding the level of heavy metals found in a reef aquarium. The little research available, indicates that the heavy metal content is very high in reef tanks tested. The heavy metal content in our tanks, is already in the range where research indicates that it can cause problems for many organisms found in reef tanks.

You should keep in mind that heavy metals are being introduced not only from the salt mix you choose & the supplements used to maintain alk, calcium and mag, but a major source is in the foods we add to our tanks.

Equipment needed to properly test for the heavy metals is very expensive and out of the price range for most hobbyists. We are talking parts per billion in this situation.

Using copper, as an example, it is been found to be at quite a range in reef tanks. Anywhere from 10 ppb to over 30 ppb. Research has demonstrated that at as little as 2 ppb, copper can cause problems for many tank organisms. when over 30 ppb, copper can kill many organisms in our tanks.

It has also be discovered in research that the combination of heavy metals can act synergistically and reduce the amount of heavy metals needed to cause problems. Other heavy metals like zinc, lead, silver........etc, have shown similar results to copper but with some we are talking much lower levels.

From the research, it appears that the heavy metals cause changes in the populations of the bacteria and symbiotic algae found in the outer mucal layer and the inside tissues of coral. These populations changes can have various results. One is a change in color of our coral due to the new populations. Another is tissue necrosis due to chemicals produced by the new algae and bacteria that actually kill the coral. The changes that occur due to increased heavy metal levels will depend a lot on the species of algae and bacteria present in a reef tank. IMHO, based on research in the ocean, our tanks can have 10s of thousand of types of bacteria alone. If you ask me, when we play with heavy metal additives, we are playing with fire. Sooner or later, hobbyists who decide to do this are going to get burnt.

 

[Crit21]

The primary reasons two-parts are used seem to be cost and ease of use. I don't think anyone here can say that they are "better" than other approaches, for whatever better might mean. Randy's recipes don't include a trace element part. It's not clear that such a solution is useful if regular water changes are done.

So I don't understand what you think might be a problem, if anything.

Agree. I've used the HF recipe for several years without a hitch. I'm sure the Balling method components for Ca, alk and Mg are just as easy and cost effective. My only issue is with adding heavy metals for which no test kit exists.

 

[Crit21]

If you ask me, when we play with heavy metal additives, we are playing with fire. Sooner or later, hobbyists who decide to do this are going to get burnt.

Amen, brother! My point exactly!

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM BICARBONATE.htm

/shrug

 

[HighlandReefer]

The Self Purification of Limewater (Kalkwasser)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/chem.htm

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

You should keep in mind that heavy metals are being introduced not only from the salt mix you choose & the supplements used to maintain alk, calcium and mag, but a major source is in the foods we add to our tanks.

Couldn't this be also from LARGE amounts of LR being added? I mean, it IS a rock and very doubtful that it's pure...

 

[HighlandReefer]

"Couldn't this be also from LARGE amounts of LR being added? I mean, it IS a rock and very doubtful that it's pure..."

Live rock can contain large amounts of heavy metals. It will depend on the heavy metal content of the seawater the rock is taken from. If the rock comes from polluted waters, then certainly this rock could be high in heavy metals and phosphate. This can also be a concern when calcium carbonate rock (and lime stone) is used in calcium reactors. This can be one major disadvantage for using calcium reactors and to a lesser extent kalk reactors. Both types of reactors do not allow the heavy metals to precipitate out like when using kalk water properly. Without expensive testing, one really can't know the heavy metal content of calcium carbonate rock (live or not live) and the content of limestone used in calcium reactors. We are at the mercy of the Manufacturers.

 

[C. Schuhmacher]

Ok, let me try it a different way. We all know that the Holmes-Farley DIY method consists of 1) Measuring the beginning values of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium, 2) Calculating how much of each to add, 3) Adding the components indepently, and 4) Confirming the results by measuring each parameter again. The system works well, but is limited to those three parameters.

My concerns about the Balling method:

1. One comment I made earlier is that if you can't measure it, don't dose it. One of the Balling supplements is a cocktail of elements, including several heavy metals. Since there are no tests available to hobbyists for three of them (chromium, nickel and zinc), you can neither measure the initial values in the water before dosing, nor measure the values after dosing has occurred. How do you know if you're creating a toxic situation if there's no way of knowing how much is in the water???

2. The other downside of this component is that you can't control each element independently, because they're all in a single solution.

3. I've read testimonials that say you can observe dramatic changes in your corals in as little as several hours after starting to add the Balling supplements. That's scary, since a reasonable person would not want to change water chemistry so fast as to cause an observable change that quickly.

4. Rather than changing dosages based on measuring water parameters, the Balling method relies on tweaking dosage based on visual indications.

HI Crit
Interesting post and meaning i hope i can explain why your thoughts are wrong

to 1.
There is a way to know how much the corals need for their grow and how much of them are normaly find in the skeleton of the corals, With the balling light methode you only dose that ammount which is normaly used by tehe grow of the corals and not like a normal element mix once a week.
Why you dont ask how much of this elements are in regular salt mixes or
cheap singe salts ;-) The heavy metal mix is a mix which contains that part of elements , that mean not that they are in massive ammounts in
with Fauna Marin Balling elements you cannot decrease them in dangerous ammounts if you dose correctly and in the ratio of your calcium solution.
to 2.
This meaning you can add to every single product in the market , also to some very expensiv sea salts ;-) or foods. It make no sense to sell a bottle for each element and vitamin with is necessary for this methode or would you want to buy 70 different bottles ???
to 3.
Whoever says such stupid things in every balling light manual you can read that the things have to change slowly and nobody of us says that they are massive changes in a few hours ....
to 4.
the balling methode works on clear measuremnt methodes by CA / MG and ALKALINITY Tests and not by visual effect

I have no idea where you have your idea´s and why everybody things that every producer is cheating his costumer but i can tell you that we use in europe this system since 25 years and more then 90 % of all german reefers will use it. A producer who work there not 100% correct will not survive many years on the market.

rgds claude

 

[C. Schuhmacher]

HI Highland

Sooner or later the people will see that unwanted Trace elements and also Heavy metals are in the most salts / Foods / decorations in the market. It makes really no sense to fight against a Trace Element solution which is honest enough the write on the bottle what is in , instead of say A B or C Element.
The balling elements showed now over years in tenthousends of tanks that the mix of them is succesful and a benefit for the most corals and tanks.

To look on the elements and to have a look not to increase the levels to much is the correct way, but then you must look for all sources of elements and not only at one product which write it on it. Heavy metal complex is not only this 3 elements, it says only that there are elements in which are in this group
also like Iron or Mangan etc.

rgds claude

 

[HighlandReefer]

Claude,

Have there been any studies regarding the levels of heavy metals found in the components of the Balling Method? I would be very interested in any lab reports published.