Is metal halide dead?

[Perth_reefer]

kenpau,

You have made many bold statements about the success of LEDs and then I go to your tank thread and you have little to no experience or success with the hydras.

And now you are switching to at Geisemann T5/LED combo unit?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2483591

Before Hydra52s I was running AI Sols, before that I ran MH for about 6 years. My new system has been running for about 4.5 months with coral in it now, are you expecting a fully established reef in that time?

You are correct I'm changing to a T5/LED hybrid, did you read the reasons why? I did a PAR test and needed more spread, this meant buying a couple more Hydra52s. I've recently had a bonus from work and have always wanted Giesemann lighting so decided to buy their latest fixture which happens to be the hybrid. I could have changed to Giesemann MH with my bonus money but there is no way I'm leaving using LEDs, they just happen to be supplemented by T5s in the new light.

While we're on the subject of bold statements....

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2507444

Seems LEDs are on the way out, someone better tell GIesemann, AI, Ecotech and Kessil fast before they waste more time and money designing high end aquarium lighting!!

 

[Big E]

Yes, I read your reasons...........your stating some of the same short comings people have experienced on coverage issues for quite some time & why larger tank owners switch back to halides.

There are also many issues with spectrum and why so many people including yourself are going with combos. Say what you want, but at least develop some experience and credibility.

Seriously??? That thread was in fun...........notice the smiley faces. Do some research on that lighting....it very well could be the future.

I noticed you failed to link my tank thread, so I'll do it for you---

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=12


Here's some bold statements I made almost 3 years ago and it has all been true about coverage and shortcomings. Some of the issues have been addressed in the last few years but still are of question-----

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810

 

[Perth_reefer]

Spectrum is not my issue at all, I'm getting very nice colours and growth. Light spread is my issue because I have a wide tank, I think the exact reason I put is that while Hydra52s give out excellent PAR the optical angle is quite poor. For this reason I need more fixtures. If you look further back in this thread you'll see I agreed that you need A LOT of LED fixtures to achieve the same results as MH. Instead of buying more LED fixtures I went for higher end LED technology supplemented by T5. I've put in many posts that I believe LED/T5 hybrids are the way to go now, all the advantages of LED and T5 in one unit.
My main argument in this thread is that there are a few people (like you) making outrageous claims that LEDs are being phased out, don't grow corals and are a waste of money, where 99% of problems people encounter are either by buying cheap eBay units expecting them to perform like MH, or not knowing how to set LEDs up correctly.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I noticed you failed to link my tank thread, so I'll do it for you---

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=12



Here's some bold statements I made almost 3 years ago and it has all been true about coverage and shortcomings. Some of the issues have been addressed in the last few years but still are of question-----

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810

Why was I supposed to link your tank thread? So people can see MH grows corals?? I'll be the first person to say MH grows corals, but thats not the argument is it? Or were you hoping people would compare your 3 year old reef with my 6 month old reef and think MH is better than LED??


So you made statements about LEDs 3 years ago! Far out, LED technology is improving all the time, some of the issues have been addressed and the rest of them are probably in the process of being addressed, definitely not a reason to ditch LEDs and go back to MH.

 

[johnike]

I didn't want to name names but several of those companies you mentioned were the same ones people tell us they switched back from.

All five of my lights are old SE Reefstars I've had for 15 years or more!!

 

[KafudaFish]

If you have LEDs set up correctly you shouldn't be waiting anywhere near a year. There are plenty of examples on here of fantistic growth and colour in half that time.

Why was I supposed to link your tank thread? So people can see MH grows corals?? I'll be the first person to say MH grows corals, but thats not the argument is it? Or were you hoping people would compare your 3 year old reef with my 6 month old reef and think MH is better than LED??


So you made statements about LEDs 3 years ago! Far out, LED technology is improving all the time, some of the issues have been addressed and the rest of them are probably in the process of being addressed, definitely not a reason to ditch LEDs and go back to MH.

I think the reason why this question comes up so often is for years we have been told in general that it is a 1:1 switch, the equipment lasts longer, and people are excited with new technology.

Also when the limits are discussed one of the arguments is the next generation of technology will fix what is broken.

Much has been figured out but there is still more to understand and why this continues to be addressed.

How much have you or will you spend on lighting your current tank?
Did you set them up correctly? Is this user or equipment error or both?
Are the fixtures you used high end or junk?

I guess I don't understand why you would make certain statements about the validity of a product while having to back track to explain the limitations you are having in your tank.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I guess I don't understand why you would make certain statements about the validity of a product while having to back track to explain the limitations you are having in your tank.

I'll refer you to my quote below. I didn't have to backtrack at all. Someone said that I am switching to an LED/T5 hybrid while stating that LEDs work well, this is true. If you see my quote below....

I completely agree, I don't think it is any secret that there is a considerable outlay to buy enough fixtures to do the job that MH does, especially on large tanks. Absolutely no argument there.

Because I have a wide tank I need to add more fixtures to achieve total coverage, because I had the opportunity to buy Giesemann lighting I decided to swap my lights out. But I will still be running LEDs supplemented by T5.

LEDs work very well, trying to call me out saying that I'm backtracking isn't going to change that fact, there are many examples of amazing reef tanks on here grown from LED lights. Again I'll ask my question......if one person can get LEDs working, and working well.....why can't others? Why do some people have success with Radions or Hydra52s and others don't......well we know it's not the lights because they are proven to work, that just leaves user error.

 

[d2mini]

I run a chiller and I recently starting tracking the cost.
The pump that feeds it and the chiller itself are running me about $32/month in the summer. That's with a canopy and no fans. Not nearly as bad as i thought it was going to be.
And now I've just recently added a couple computer fans to the canopy and it seems to be saving me a good 25%.

 

[ca1ore]

This is the tank I was talking about. Lit and grown with AI LED lighting.

[/QUOTE]

Tank looks great, and I'm not suggesting one cannot grow corals under Led, but those photos look to have a significant blue 'push' to me. I can easily do the same with photos of my tank to make things look far more colorful than they actually are. Giveaway is always if the sand looks blue.

 

[kevin_e]

I run a chiller and I recently starting tracking the cost.
The pump that feeds it and the chiller itself are running me about $32/month in the summer. That's with a canopy and no fans. Not nearly as bad as i thought it was going to be.
And now I've just recently added a couple computer fans to the canopy and it seems to be saving me a good 25%.

My 2x 4" fans, 2x 250-watt metal halides and 2x 55 watt Blue Plus bulbs run me $30 a month total. Pretty insignificant in my eyes.

 

[Trailermann]

Hey there Wazzel and others,

I have two 175 watt metal halide fixtures that I cannot find replacement bulbs for. They are pendant style and require bulbs with a large mogul base. All I find in searches are long tube style bulbs, or double ended. Is this an example of MH dying, or have I not found the proper bulb sources. I can't figure out how to attach photos from my computer's files.

 

[kevin_e]

Hey there Wazzel and others,

I have two 175 watt metal halide fixtures that I cannot find replacement bulbs for. They are pendant style and require bulbs with a large mogul base. All I find in searches are long tube style bulbs, or double ended. Is this an example of MH dying, or have I not found the proper bulb sources. I can't figure out how to attach photos from my computer's files.

No, it's not dying, don't listen to that gibberish. One halide company and one halide wholesaler has already stated that they are seeing floods of sales in metal halide again.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewi...ntent=MB4411&gclid=CIvw0ZbM08YCFdgPgQodqQgApw

That's what you want. They are easy to find.

 

[shred5]

No problem getting MH and T5 fixtures or bulbs here.
In fact, the MH manufacturers will tell you there has been an increase in sales over the past year or so.
And you will see more and more "hybrid" fixtures popping up that use both LED and MH or T5, many where the LED is the supplemental lighting out of the two.

It will be quite some time before you have to worry about mh being phased out.

Well one reason manufactures could be seeing an increase is there are far fewer of them.
I contacted retailers to confirm what the manufacturers were saying and they confirmed that metal halide sales were rising again. There was a thread about a year ago where I think Marine depot plus a few others confirmed this too.

They also said the growth of led sales were starting to slow.. That does not mean sales of led is slowing, that means the growth was coming down.

They did say a major shake out in led is coming. They told me they can not possibly stock all the possible manufactures out there. They also said the upgrades per manufacturer is to fast. They are getting stuck with allot of inventory. Basically some said they will only Cary a few popular brads. Allot of these companies will be going belly up or combining. Basically some major consolidation.

This is what has happened with metal halide. This is why allot of bulbs are not available. The popular brads will survive.

 

[cloak]

Just as a response to "Is metal halide dead," I have an older Hamilton magnetic ballast gathering dust in my "Box O Crap." If I had the money right now, I would love to use this, a good reflector and a 175 watt 14K bulb over a 40 gallon breeder just for $h!t$ & giggles. (low light corals) I know this isn't as cost effective as an electronic ballast or perhaps some LED's, but there's just something about those MH set-ups that light my fire. (regardless)

 

[Sk8r]

At a certain point, it will make economic sense to go over to LEDs, but if your system is workable, supply is certainly easy come by.

 

[StinkyBunny]

I'm going back to metal halides myself. I too had been away from the hobby side, went with LEDs, but I remember the 80s when halide was the be all, end all of lighting. With the different colour spectrums available today it's easy to figure out what works with what you want to grow. My ritteri is flat out under a 70w 14k bulb, it was wandering like vitz in the desert under LEDs.

 

[d2mini]

I would love to use this, a good reflector and a 175 watt 14K bulb over a 40 gallon breeder just for $h!t$ & giggles. (low light corals) I know this isn't as cost effective as an electronic ballast or perhaps some LED's, but there's just something about those MH set-ups that light my fire. (regardless)

I have the 250w cebu sun over my 40b frag tank.

 

[karimwassef]

I've never had a problem taking a good picture under MH!

 

[jminick2]

I had two radion g3 pros over a 4×2×2, I had ONE acro that grew well out of about 25. so I decided to give MH a shot now I have 2 250 watt MHs and my acros have taken off, still not extremely happy with color but I think that's another issue other than lighting.

the point is I would of needed at LEAST 2 more g3 pros to achieve the growth I am getting now. you want leds the start up cost to get good growth is going to be stupid expensive.

notice the tank posted above that's looks amazing and has been grown out under LEDS I bet he has no money issues considering there's a 3000 dollar fish swimming around in there. I bet he's got plenty of fixtures.

I'll stick with MH.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I had two radion g3 pros over a 4×2×2, I had ONE acro that grew well out of about 25. so I decided to give MH a shot now I have 2 250 watt MHs and my acros have taken off, still not extremely happy with color but I think that's another issue other than lighting.

the point is I would of needed at LEAST 2 more g3 pros to achieve the growth I am getting now. you want leds the start up cost to get good growth is going to be stupid expensive.

notice the tank posted above that's looks amazing and has been grown out under LEDS I bet he has no money issues considering there's a 3000 dollar fish swimming around in there. I bet he's got plenty of fixtures.

I'll stick with MH.

This is the major issue with LED for a lot of people, the fixture costs to get sufficient light spread across the tank. If you're running anything over a 3ft tank on a budget then good quality LEDs aren't an option, unless you can go second hand. I just sold my 3 Hydra52s with EXT rails, hanging kit and Apex AWM for $1500, that's $900 cheaper than buying new but still expensive and realistically that is only suffi

I had two radion g3 pros over a 4×2×2, I had ONE acro that grew well out of about 25. so I decided to give MH a shot now I have 2 250 watt MHs and my acros have taken off, still not extremely happy with color but I think that's another issue other than lighting.

the point is I would of needed at LEAST 2 more g3 pros to achieve the growth I am getting now. you want leds the start up cost to get good growth is going to be stupid expensive.

notice the tank posted above that's looks amazing and has been grown out under LEDS I bet he has no money issues considering there's a 3000 dollar fish swimming around in there. I bet he's got plenty of fixtures.

I'll stick with MH.

This is the major issue with LED for a lot of people, the fixture costs to get sufficient light spread across the tank. If you're running anything over a 3ft tank on a budget then good quality LEDs aren't an option, unless you can go second hand. I just sold my 3 Hydra52s with EXT rails, hanging kit and Apex AWM for $1500, that's $900 cheaper than buying new but still expensive and realistically that is only sufficient coverage for a 4x2x2....just.
As with all lighting there are pros and cons, if money wasn't an issue there aren't many cons with LEDs IMO.....however for 99% of us costs have to be taken into account.
I never noticed the Gem Tang in that shot before!
ciently coverage for a 4x2x2....just.
As with all lighting there are pros and cons, if money wasn't an issue there aren't many cons with LEDs IMO.....however for 99% of us costs have to be taken into account.
I never noticed the Gem Tang in that shot before!