It's bigger than the Tang thread

[Stuart60611]

I understand, but that sort of methodology is just not possible in this case.

Well, we I guess can agree to disagree on its possiblity. I agree it is impossible to for this methodology to produce purely objective scientific results, but I definitely believe that this methodology can and should be used to produce results which bear a much closer approximation to reality, especially when compared to some of the minimum tank size information being offered now for many species. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be much more reliable and accurate than the status quo? I definitely believe so.

 

[logan 12]

I am not sure if my point was missed or what. Anyways here we go again. Would you rather a fish die in the wild
not making it to year class one, or would you rather that fish be put through some stress and live a few years in a tank?
Since that fish is going to die it might as well put up with a little stress and live, even if its only another year, in
a tank. I am not sure what is trying to be said here. Since the fish is most likely captured at an early age before year
class one it is most likely going to die and never even have a chance in passing its genes on into the gene pool as has
been discribed by charles darwin as "survival of the fittest." Of course there is the being humane aspect that should be
considered with any animal. But it is going to die no matter what, so give it a few years in a tank system then.....
Anyways the real concern I think is when fish that have a chance to make it in the wild and eventually pass on their genes.
If these fish are captured and placed into a tank, then they have now been removed from the population, don't have a chance
to pass their genes on, and will live a non-purpose life. Unfortantly these fishes are found in large aquariums, because
the owner does not want some little fish in their 500 gallon tank. They want a big fish, I have worked in a fish store and
know this is what occurs seening it first hand. So buy small fish that have been captured within the first year of their
life and be happy that you as an aquarist have pro longed that fishes life. Although it may be a somewhat stressed life, at l
least its a life and not death. And come on which of us here live a stress free life, not me. I doubt you do either.

 

[frankpayne32]

Well, we I guess can agree to disagree on its possiblity. I agree it is impossible to for this methodology to produce purely objective scientific results, but I definitely believe that this methodology can and should be used to produce results which bear a much closer approximation to reality, especially when compared to some of the minimum tank size information being offered now for many species. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be much more reliable and accurate than the status quo? I definitely believe so.

I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree then. I really do understand what you'd like to accomplish but there are way too many variables to come up with an even remotely accurate methodology for determining tank size for most animals, not just fish. An experienced keeper's opinion and observations are the only real measuring stick here.

 

[frankpayne32]

I am not sure if my point was missed or what. Anyways here we go again. Would you rather a fish die in the wild
not making it to year class one, or would you rather that fish be put through some stress and live a few years in a tank?
Since that fish is going to die it might as well put up with a little stress and live, even if its only another year, in
a tank. I am not sure what is trying to be said here. Since the fish is most likely captured at an early age before year
class one it is most likely going to die and never even have a chance in passing its genes on into the gene pool as has
been discribed by charles darwin as "survival of the fittest." Of course there is the being humane aspect that should be
considered with any animal. But it is going to die no matter what, so give it a few years in a tank system then.....
Anyways the real concern I think is when fish that have a chance to make it in the wild and eventually pass on their genes.
If these fish are captured and placed into a tank, then they have now been removed from the population, don't have a chance
to pass their genes on, and will live a non-purpose life. Unfortantly these fishes are found in large aquariums, because
the owner does not want some little fish in their 500 gallon tank. They want a big fish, I have worked in a fish store and
know this is what occurs seening it first hand. So buy small fish that have been captured within the first year of their
life and be happy that you as an aquarist have pro longed that fishes life. Although it may be a somewhat stressed life, at l
least its a life and not death. And come on which of us here live a stress free life, not me. I doubt you do either.

That point was definitely not lost on me. I've been saying for years that animals in captivity (under adequate conditions) live much healthier lives than their wild counterparts. I echo what I said earlier that that is a very good point and one of the best ones made in this thread by anyone. It is a very good question that every individual needs to answer for themselves.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I am not sure if my point was missed or what. Anyways here we go again. Would you rather a fish die in the wild
not making it to year class one, or would you rather that fish be put through some stress and live a few years in a tank?
Since that fish is going to die it might as well put up with a little stress and live, even if its only another year, in
a tank. I am not sure what is trying to be said here. Since the fish is most likely captured at an early age before year
class one it is most likely going to die and never even have a chance in passing its genes on into the gene pool as has
been discribed by charles darwin as "survival of the fittest." Of course there is the being humane aspect that should be
considered with any animal. But it is going to die no matter what, so give it a few years in a tank system then.....
Anyways the real concern I think is when fish that have a chance to make it in the wild and eventually pass on their genes.
If these fish are captured and placed into a tank, then they have now been removed from the population, don't have a chance
to pass their genes on, and will live a non-purpose life. Unfortantly these fishes are found in large aquariums, because
the owner does not want some little fish in their 500 gallon tank. They want a big fish, I have worked in a fish store and
know this is what occurs seening it first hand. So buy small fish that have been captured within the first year of their
life and be happy that you as an aquarist have pro longed that fishes life. Although it may be a somewhat stressed life, at l
least its a life and not death. And come on which of us here live a stress free life, not me. I doubt you do either.

I don't want to keep a stressed fish. I don't want to be thinking, "Well he may be stressed, but at least he's living longer" when sitting back to enjoy my tank.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I am not sure if my point was missed or what. Anyways here we go again. Would you rather a fish die in the wild
not making it to year class one, or would you rather that fish be put through some stress and live a few years in a tank?
Since that fish is going to die it might as well put up with a little stress and live, even if its only another year, in
a tank. I am not sure what is trying to be said here. Since the fish is most likely captured at an early age before year
class one it is most likely going to die and never even have a chance in passing its genes on into the gene pool as has
been discribed by charles darwin as "survival of the fittest." Of course there is the being humane aspect that should be
considered with any animal. But it is going to die no matter what, so give it a few years in a tank system then.....
Anyways the real concern I think is when fish that have a chance to make it in the wild and eventually pass on their genes.
If these fish are captured and placed into a tank, then they have now been removed from the population, don't have a chance
to pass their genes on, and will live a non-purpose life. Unfortantly these fishes are found in large aquariums, because
the owner does not want some little fish in their 500 gallon tank. They want a big fish, I have worked in a fish store and
know this is what occurs seening it first hand. So buy small fish that have been captured within the first year of their
life and be happy that you as an aquarist have pro longed that fishes life. Although it may be a somewhat stressed life, at l
least its a life and not death. And come on which of us here live a stress free life, not me. I doubt you do either.

I will use an extreme example, but I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly.

You are saying that it is better off to put a less then one year old (( and how many are actually collected that young )) clown tang in a 55 -- for its life span -- then leaving it in the ocean, since the odds of living, long term, in the ocean are lower?

 

[Stuart60611]

I just took 30 seconds to do a google search and found this thread. This is a very basic and simple attempt which appears to be largely unrefined of the exact type of methodology I am suggesting. Obviously, this particular example needs a lot of work, but I think it illustrates the possibility of what I am advocating.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=673446

I also found this link interesting in terms of demonstrating some possibilities here:

http://www.firsttankguide.net/capacity.php

And yet another:

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...intelligent-aquarium-stocking-calculator-413/

 

[logan 12]

Angel*Fish

There is nothing wrong with that and I applaud you in your thinking. The point being is that not alot of others think like this, so as I have stated this is a positive note on which we can look at the people who buy fish and could care less about them.


Toddrterx

I can not say for a fact that fish are being captured before the age of 1, but most are captured at a realtively young age. Do to size when purchased, fish actually grow fairly quickly in the wild. Only 10% of the fish that are born will reach age 1, out of those 10% only a few will reach age 2 and so on and so on. Until maturation is reached by only a few fish, maybe only 1 or 2 from the orginal cohort. So out of those hundreds of eggs only 1% or maybe a little more are actually going to pass thier genes on to the next generation, in other words mate.

I am not promoting you go buy what ever fish that you want, because of what I had said. Use your head, most of us on here are smart and capable of making good choices.
That is why we have turned to reefcental.

 

[Stuart60611]

I found a saltwater version!:

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...-version-aqadvisor-stocking-calculator-42091/

I am going to now try to find a download link for the program and play with it to come up with some ideas.


Here is a link to the saltwater version:

http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisorMarine.php

 

[Toddrtrex]

..

Toddrterx

I can not say for a fact that fish are being captured before the age of 1, but most are captured at a realtively young age. Do to size when purchased, fish actually grow fairly quickly in the wild. Only 10% of the fish that are born will reach age 1, out of those 10% only a few will reach age 2 and so on and so on. Until maturation is reached by only a few fish, maybe only 1 or 2 from the orginal cohort. So out of those hundreds of eggs only 1% or maybe a little more are actually going to pass thier genes on to the next generation, in other words mate.

I am not promoting you go buy what ever fish that you want, because of what I had said. Use your head, most of us on here are smart and capable of making good choices.
That is why we have turned to reefcental.

I am, as you put it, "using my head" -- was just trying to clarify what you said -- and believe it or not I am capable of making good choices.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I found a saltwater version!:

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...-version-aqadvisor-stocking-calculator-42091/

I am going to now try to find a download link for the program and play with it to come up with some ideas.


Here is a link to the saltwater version:

http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisorMarine.php

I am very causally messing with that, and already disagree with it -- that is the problem, you have to trust who made the program. According to them, I could have the following in my 75;
1 x Picasso Triggerfish (Rhinecanthus aculeatus)
2 x Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
3 x Blue Damsel (Chrysiptera cyanea)

Only message is that I am at 127% of stocking level (( which I can get to disappear by removing the damsels.

I would never recommend a Hepatus for a 75, let alone 2. Same goes for the trigger.

 

[Stuart60611]

I am very causally messing with that, and already disagree with it -- that is the problem, you have to trust who made the program. According to them, I could have the following in my 75;
1 x Picasso Triggerfish (Rhinecanthus aculeatus)
2 x Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
3 x Blue Damsel (Chrysiptera cyanea)

Only message is that I am at 127% of stocking level (( which I can get to disappear by removing the damsels.

I would never recommend a Hepatus for a 75, let alone 2. Same goes for the trigger.

The programmer stated that this version is highly experimental, and you are just looking at a very early release which needs to be tweaked considerably. Obviously, who provides the data upon which these calculations are made and the formulas for the calculations are critical. I post this not for its accuracy, but instead for it providing possibilities and demonstrating that such an approach could be of great value. We do not need a fancy computer program for this and instead could just come up with some metrics used for basing such determinations and then have people experienced in the hobby apply the metrics along with their experience and other variables hard to reduce to metrics to come up with appropriate minimum tank size.

 

[bertoni]

I don't know what criteria Jonathan Bertoni used, it might be helpful if more info was given about that.

The article was a joint effort, and I didn't write it, nor did I contribute to the tank sizes discussion. I edited the text, and wrote some programs to produce the chart, as well as doing some poking and prodding to keep the effort going (not that I was alone in that). In the end, the only reason the article has my name is that I was the one who posted it. I guess I don't mind putting a target on my back.

I suppose we should add some specific text about the article being a group effort, but lots of people seem to ignore notes like that, anyway. Maybe I'll get energetic today.

 

[logan 12]

I am, as you put it, "using my head" -- was just trying to clarify what you said -- and believe it or not I am capable of making good choices.

Believe it or not some people are not capable of doing these simple tasks, work at a fish store for a bit. Thats is mostly who it was intended for, not you.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Believe it or not some people are not capable of doing these simple tasks, work at a fish store for a bit. Thats is mostly who it was intended for, not you.

Really? I never realized that in my 18+ years of this hobby.

 

[Sk8r]

I started to add that Bertoni did the composition and computer work on the Tang List, and no one person came up with it solo. The actual list was a composite of various reference sources reviewed by a large group of people, final say going always to two considerations: 1. can the tank recommended be bought 'off the shelf' (in some cases, different tanks are now available, compared to those available at the last revision date of the reference work) and 2. give the greatest weight to persons who are experienced in the specific type of tang in question.

 

[bleedfire]

When I consider a fish for a tank I always ask myself 2 questions. The first question is how far and fast does the fish swim (tang are long/fast swimmers, clown are short/slow swimmers)? The second is would I want to live in a similar sized room if I scaled the fish and tank to my size (8" long tang is equal to a 6' tall person) (that means that a typical 55 gal tank is the equivalent of a 346 ft^2 room)... Now ask yourself if you would want to live in a 346 ft^2 room with 14' tall ceilings for the rest of your life? If the answer is no, then you shouldn't keep a tang in your tank!!! Game Set Match...

Well I agree and Disagree
In general I think about Adaptation, I read once (I think it was here in reefcentral) that a Marine biologist took care a Tang (Yellow) fish since birth place it in a 10 gallon, the fish survived was in the tank for 4 years and have not shown growth since it hit the 3" Mark.

but comparing yourself to a habitat of a fish is stupid. okay lets compare aquarium you tell a guy not to put a tang in a 55 gallon like you sed 346 ft^2 of an area but you agree when a guy ask to put a tang in a 100 gallon thats like 692ft^2 would you want to live their in the rest of your life? I wouldnt i'd be super [profanity]
Us humans like to do[profanity] since we practically dominated the world and wipe out more than 2000 species. and your worry about how big of an aquarium a tang should be in? I could sometimes see the glass empty even if its full.

What was that saying? we know more about the surface of the moon than the ocean

 

[logan 12]

Really? I never realized that in my 18+ years of this hobby.

Okay be a [profanity], love it.
Back at you, although I have not been in this hobby as long as you have, one of my good friends that has 30+ years in the hobby has shared much of his knowledge with me. Also he is one of the 3 founders of RC.

So take that.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Okay be a [profanity], love it.
Back at you, although I have not been in this hobby as long as you have, one of my good friends that has 30+ years in the hobby has shared much of his knowledge with me. Also he is one of the 3 founders of RC.

So take that.

Take what?? You started by giving me attitude first.

But, on that note, time for me to leave this thread, giving me a headache.

 

[logan 12]

Take what?? You started by giving me attitude first.

But, on that note, time for me to leave this thread, giving me a headache.

There was NO attitude intended, I am just kind of a [profanity] sometimes. I was just joking around. Sorry. I dont want you to give up on the thread. I am only stating pure fact and am no way arguing one way or the other. 18+ years is impressive by the way.