Lanthanum chloride

[tmz]

Tom, are you saying that you dose at 30% SeaKlear/70% Ro?

Would there be any down side to diluting the solution more other than a longer drip time? I was thinking of diluting mine out to 2.5 gallons that fit in my kent doser jug. i assume a lower concentration will allow a better mixing with tank water and give a more consistent precipitation as it is exposed to a greater volume of tank water over a longer period.

Do you need a certain LaCl concentration in your dosing solution for it to be effective at binding the phos?

Yes I dose a mix of 70% ro to 30% seaklear. This is my attempt to approximate the strength of the Brightwell product I was using earlier. I do not use very much( 5 ml of the diluted solution for 550gallons) and only use it to tweak PO4 down when gfo and /or carbon dosing lag a bit, usually about 1x per week. This dose drops PO4 about .03ppm for the 550gallons(.08ppm to .04/5 ppm) in my system. Some have noted that it is less effective at PO4 levels lower than .10ppm or so but that has not been my experience.
I don't think it matters if you dilute it more or less than that but you'll have to measure what it takes out at different strengths if knowing that is important to you.Of course that would depend on how much PO4 is in the system too.

I dose the 5ml all at once in a high flow area through a filter area. For adrip application , I'd waere it down quite bit more.

I'd be careful not to dose too much and to filter it well. The precipitant can be harmful and cloud the water. I think it likely can harm organisms via clogging the gills of fish or via ingestion .

 

[IBASSFSH]

TMZ. thanks for posting that your SeaKlear is also amber. I was a little worried about that. Your system and mine are about the same in volume it looks like too.
Any other dosing information from you and anyone else would be appreciated.

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

TMZ. thanks for posting that your SeaKlear is also amber. I was a little worried about that. Your system and mine are about the same in volume it looks like too.
Any other dosing information from you and anyone else would be appreciated.

I checked the mds on the Phosphate Remover and it says "clear to light orange liquid" so I guess either is fine.

 

[tmz]

TMZ. thanks for posting that your SeaKlear is also amber. I was a little worried about that. Your system and mine are about the same in volume it looks like too.
Any other dosing information from you and anyone else would be appreciated.

You are welcome. I don't have any more dosing information. As noted in earlier posts, I use it sparingly. I use macro refugia, gfo, gac and vodka/vinegar dosing too. I try to keep all the chemical media at the low end and use them in combination to minimize any of their potential ill effects.

 

[Gravesj1s]

several years ago Shimek was a big proponent of the metal poisoning theory.
I don't buy it. That's all.>>>>

I understand ,admittedly though,I was out of the hobby, know of it somewhat.I've never taken an interest in shimek especially using tapwater in his tank.Low opinion on his ideas.

<<<Accumulated PO4 is the root cause for the vast majority of "old tank syndrome" cases that I've seen.>>>

Sure I'd agree but I could theorize when talking of old tank syndrome for the most part were talking about "older" aquariums, with that , older techniques should apply such as adding Kalkwasser in slurry as a means of keeping up with Ca/Alk demand whitch was regarded to be safe practice(slow drip)at a given PH.Easily referenced (TRA vol.1 )Could be hypothesized as heavy metal poisoning buildup through early practices in reefkeeping caused mortality leading to higher po4?


<<<*Although it's regarded as "fact" in certain circles, I've yet to personally see any hard evidence or proof of limewater precipitating phosphates (or copper for that matter.)>>>

Are you refering to Craig Bingmans work? Wasn't the precipitate found to be CaPo4? (Gary,In fear of steering to far off the topic I'm leaving this alone for now ,another thread.)interesting comment though.
(Precipitation of PO4 in limewater C.Bingman,A.F. fall'95)
Copper I admit I was a bit vague. I think It does precipitate but I maybe jumping ahead here-check this Chemistry in the aquarium/metals in limewater Randy H.F

<<<<*The addition of kalk slurry to a reef aquarium should be avoided (especially if you have sensitive corals like Acropora etc.) because you want to avoid adding impurities. Only use the clear limewater. Avoid introducing any kalk precip into your aquarium.>>>>

Gary,I apoligize in advance here I tried to word this many different ways and it comes out as smart@$$-ish. That said, your above statement is contradicting .(i.e.-why not add the slurry if you don't believe Cu. and other heavy metal contaminants pose threat or as you noted "Shimek theory" as plausible?


<<< *As far as I know LaCl2 doesn't precipitate copper.>>>

I have no idea either and I can't find any place I may have gave you that idea,sorry if I did.

Lastly,to take away from (tmz) post heavy metals come from more than one source,maybe they are mostly metabolized,bound to organics and /or skimmed out but algae hold vast amounts as well.If an algae plagued (old tank sydrome)were to be released to quickly through the use of LaCl2 could it could be lethal.I've seen posts with addition of GFO witch doesn't appear to work as quickly as LaCL2 have a negative impact.
Can anyone say that its for sure Gfo adsorbing po4 to rapidly or rather removing po4 more rapidly than the aquarium can process heavy metals that would be released from the decaying algae?

I hope this makes more sense now.
-Graves

 

[Gravesj1s]

One of the quotes didn't come out,don't know why and I don't know how to fix it.
-Graves

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

FWIW: I don't mind this minor derailment because, (in fact), a similar thread with Dr. Craig Bingman and myself several months ago travelled down a very similar path.

Accumulated PO4 is the root cause for the vast majority of "old tank syndrome" cases that I've seen.

Sure I'd agree but I could theorize when talking of old tank syndrome for the most part were talking about "older" aquariums, with that , older techniques should apply such as adding Kalkwasser in slurry as a means of keeping up with Ca/Alk demand whitch was regarded to be safe practice(slow drip)at a given PH.Easily referenced (TRA vol.1 )Could be hypothesized as heavy metal poisoning buildup through early practices in reefkeeping caused mortality leading to higher po4?

We know that kalkwasser is "self purifying". (See Randy Holmes-Farley's article.) If any impurities are precipitated by kalkwasser these impurities would be found in the sludge (precip) that settles at the bottom of the mixing vessel. As far as I understand it, this doesn't make those impurities inert or non toxic- it simply removes them from the clear limewater. So... if you're asking if the dosing of kalk slurry to a reef aquarium can lead to problems I'd have to say (IME/IMO) yes... it can. Clear limewater doesn't contain the impurities that kalk slurry does and the results obtained between the two are noticeable. However, accumulated PO4 is a much more common problem in most reef aquaria IMO/IME.

Although it's regarded as "fact" in certain circles, I've yet to personally see any hard evidence or proof of limewater precipitating phosphates (or copper for that matter.)

Are you refering to Craig Bingmans work? Wasn't the precipitate found to be CaPo4? (Gary,In fear of steering to far off the topic I'm leaving this alone for now ,another thread.)interesting comment though.
(Precipitation of PO4 in limewater C.Bingman,A.F. fall'95)
Copper I admit I was a bit vague. I think It does precipitate but I maybe jumping ahead here-check this Chemistry in the aquarium/metals in limewater Randy H.F

as a matter of fact, Craig's AF article from '95 is exactly what I was referring to.
It's been a couple of months since I last read it. I must admit that I haven't kept pH inside the skimmer up to Craig's recommended level (using a continuous kalk drip injection) or used a wooden airstone skimmer. I believe that precipitation of phosphates is possible using limewater and a certain methodology. It's the methodology part that I find a challenge to acheive.
To this day I have yet to see limewater reduce PO4 levels levels in my reef aquarium (using a Hanna Colorimeter). It's probably because I need to set up a constant kalk drip into my skimmer in order to keep pH in the chamber up to Craig's recommended level.

The addition of kalk slurry to a reef aquarium should be avoided (especially if you have sensitive corals like Acropora etc.) because you want to avoid adding impurities. Only use the clear limewater. Avoid introducing any kalk precip into your aquarium.

Gary,I apoligize in advance here I tried to word this many different ways and it comes out as smart@$$-ish. That said, your above statement is contradicting .(i.e.-why not add the slurry if you don't believe Cu. and other heavy metal contaminants pose threat or as you noted "Shimek theory" as plausible?

I don't believe that I posted a contradictory statement. IME (search up my old posts) I believe there's a huge difference in results obtained when dosing clear limewater vs. a kalk slurry.
To put it simply (IMO/IME) additions of kalk slurry = BAD NEWS.

Lastly,to take away from (tmz) post heavy metals come from more than one source,maybe they are mostly metabolized,bound to organics and /or skimmed out but algae hold vast amounts as well.If an algae plagued (old tank sydrome)were to be released to quickly through the use of LaCl2 could it could be lethal.I've seen posts with addition of GFO witch doesn't appear to work as quickly as LaCL2 have a negative impact.
Can anyone say that its for sure Gfo adsorbing po4 to rapidly or rather removing po4 more rapidly than the aquarium can process heavy metals that would be released from the decaying algae?

IME the use of too much GFO at once has a negative effect (large swing) on alkalinity and this is what causes the vast majority of problems in reef aquaria. I don't know of any discussions on what effects a large release of bound up metals from dying algae would have on an aquarium and at this point I'd have to wonder how much algae and what concentrations it would take to cause problems.
I still think your major concern with a mass dieoff of algae should be with PO4 and not metals

 

[IBASSFSH]

I just ordered 25 10 micron bags from this place. Their shipping is alot more reasonable than the other I posted.

http://www.filterbag.com/cart.html

Does anyone know of a cheaper source than this? I ordered 7"x 17" 10 micron. They were $3.05 each.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I've been using a 8" x 16" 10 micron poly bag with a stainless steel rim from a local source. I hand wash it twice a day. I've been using the same bag for well over a year now. $3 - $5 seems to be a very reasonable price for such a filter!

 

[LFS_worker]

Gary great info!!! I find your thoughts on bingman and others great!! Accept nothing and question everything !!! I have no need to dispute its you ideas and they are wonderful!

BTW: My copy of standar methods for the examination of water and wastewater does not source a test for Lanthanum at all, but mine is an older copy but it was all I could afford.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanks for the kind words, Brian

thanks for the kind words, Brian

it's guys like Yaiullo, Bingman, Boomer (here on RC), Randy Holmes-Farley, Mitch Carl, Randy Donowitz (and a few others) that deserve much credit for their research on this topic (ie: PO4 reduction/removal).

Now what we need is someone to design a plug and play easy to use kalkwasser injector for protein skimmers......

 

[LFS_worker]

sadly i take those ideas to captain7359 : walt in about 7 seconds would have something tapped into the neck of the skimmer in a high "churn" area and have some kalk skimmate in no time LOL. Im sure he knows just the perfect john guest fitting. WALTER HELP!!!!!!

Sorry for the off topic great thread

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

it's all good.

Guys like Walter will make it happen. Somebody reading this thread is probably already working on such a contraption.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Take a bubble counter, flip it upside down, and tap it into the center of the collection cup lid. Done.

If you can get a hold of an IV drip bag kit from an EMT or doctor that would work fine too. Might have to do some cajoling but if we can get Interceptor from a vet a little $1 piece of plastic should be no problem.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

have you done this before, Matt?

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Not yet! Thinking about doing it on a tank at work though...

 

[captain7359]

Now what we need is someone to design a plug and play easy to use kalkwasser injector for protein skimmers......

Liquid slurry or dry powder????

I go away for the weekend and almost miss a good reason to go out and play in the shop.

Back on topic I'd love to see how the big tanks are being dosed with the sand filters or dosing into the parallel filter that some are doing. The filter sock is easy, but I'm still not convinced that all the LaCl is getting picked up or used up the first pass down into it.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Liquid slurry or dry powder????

I go away for the weekend and almost miss a good reason to go out and play in the shop.

Back on topic I'd love to see how the big tanks are being dosed with the sand filters or dosing into the parallel filter that some are doing. The filter sock is easy, but I'm still not convinced that all the LaCl is getting picked up or used up the first pass down into it.

-Captain,

I recall some years back when Bob Starks company (esv) released the Bromide & Floride it was "hotly"debated. Some theorized the potential for negative extracelluar reactions.I dont remember much about Br other than some sponge toxcitys...Flouride on the other hand the argument was that it could promote density in coral skeleton mass in the sense coral skeletons in home aquariums are much more fragile then the wild counterparts.
Clorine a known halogen as well and as you noted above your not convinced LaCl is being picked up on the first pass. My question is has anyone given much thought on free Cloride coverting to the more unfriendly Cl-I think carbon probably takes much if any worries out of it but wondering the thought of this from those posting here?

Fwiw,I couldn't open the linkage you posted, they want me to buy javascript or something.Also, high school chems been a while so go easy on me.

 

[reefkeeper2]

I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now. This works the same way as a sand filter and no precipitate makes it way into the display. I tried the filter socks and had negative reactions with my clams which told me some lanthanum was getting through. Not to mention what a pain it was cleaning the socks, the diatom filter works much better.

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

I have been using lanthanum by injecting it into a diatom filter for well over a year now. This works the same way as a sand filter and no precipitate makes it way into the display. I tried the filter socks and had negative reactions with my clams which told me some lanthanum was getting through. Not to mention what a pain it was cleaning the socks, the diatom filter works much better.

How much were you dosing? I have two calms and use the filter sock method and no adverse reaction to the clams.