Lanthanum chloride

[Matt_Wandell]

Gary - What color is the LaCl2 that you use. I'm just curious why mine is clear and IBASSFSH is amber?

Some of it is sold as a light brown liquid. Nothing to worry about IMO.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

initially I dripped the diluted LaCl2 down my 10ft. of drains into the filter sock. Nowadays I simply drip it into the sock slowly. I stop the drip just before the sock clogs completely. (I want 100% of draining water to pass through the 10 micron sock.)
Remove sock and repeat if necessary.

Key animals to watch IME:

*Tangs (especially Acanthurus)
*Snails
*Tridacna clams

Ditto, and add sponges to that too (potentially a big problem)...

 

[Reefski's]

can you elaborate on what problems you would see with snails, clams, and sponges? i have not seen anything with my clams or sponges that i know. i have a lot of sponges in my system.

i have been dosing LC for a year or so now, dripped into a 5 micron sock in the sump as needed to keep PO4 <0.1ppm

Carl

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

Some of it is sold as a light brown liquid. Nothing to worry about IMO.

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure. I just found it odd since I used the same exact stuff as IBASSFSH.

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

can you elaborate on what problems you would see with snails, clams, and sponges? i have not seen anything with my clams or sponges that i know. i have a lot of sponges in my system.

i have been dosing LC for a year or so now, dripped into a 5 micron sock in the sump as needed to keep PO4 <0.1ppm

Carl

+1

I do not dose regularly though just when my phosphates rise too high. I have clams, snails and a couple sponges. On my 100 gallon system volume, I put a clean filter sock on and then I dose 1ml into my HOB overflow box and then change my filter sock out later that day.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

can you elaborate on what problems you would see with snails, clams, and sponges? i have not seen anything with my clams or sponges that i know. i have a lot of sponges in my system.

i have been dosing LC for a year or so now, dripped into a 5 micron sock in the sump as needed to keep PO4 <0.1ppm

Carl

I dripped LC into a 300g system not too long ago and a yellow sponge I had reacted very badly to it. One potential issue with LC is that you are creating very small particles of precipitate in the water that could (hypothetically) be irritating certain animals and filter feeders. We know that very fine particles of carbon dust can irritate fish and cause HLLE, and acanthurids seem to be particularly sensitive to this.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Does anyone know how effective carbon would be at removing lanthanum chloride?

Short answer is that no one really knows. There is no easy "lanthanum test" for seawater. The small amount of free lanthanum ion could complex with organic molecules, it could be taken up by calcifying organisms, etc, but as far as I know none of this is known. All the more reason to go slow, don't overdose it, and try and catch and remove all the precipitated lanthanum carbonate you can. Running carbon and GFO certainly couldn't hurt. :thumbsup:

 

[tmz]

Mine appears to be an amber shade . I opened the top and looking down into the bottle it still looks amber.

Gary you drip or add your chemical into your filter sock? Or is it added to your sump. I am guessing the filter sock.

I am not going to try this until after the 20th of February as we are having a local reef club meeting at my house. Just in case things go badly...

Mine is amber. The mds states 99.9% lanthanum chloride. I played with the dosing math vs the brighwell product and Sea Klear is much more concentrated. It looks much less amber when diluted with ro.

 

[ILoveReefer]

Mine is amber. The mds states 99.9% lanthanum chloride. I played with the dosing math vs the brighwell product and Sea Klear is much more concentrated. It looks much less amber when diluted with ro.

Do you know the brighwell product's lanthanum chloride concentration? I keep getting an error when I try to open that webpage from brightwell.

I plan on using Natural Chemistries product Phofree which is 7%-13% lanthanum chloride. Would do seaklear but I wasn't able to find it at the local pool stores.

Just trying to get an idea of a how much to dose, or atleast to start dosing in safe quantity.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

I plan on using Natural Chemistries product Phofree which is 7%-13% lanthanum chloride. Would do seaklear but I wasn't able to find it at the local pool stores.

www.aquaticeco.com sells SeaKlear LaCl as "Phosphate Remover".

 

[tmz]

I bought SeaKlear on line. Can't recall the exact math but I compared the removal rates for the Brightwell product and the Sea Klear and landed on the 70% ro dilution. Sea Klear goes for about $30/$35 a quart. So with dilution you can get about 7 or 8x as much as you get in a $25 of the Brightwell product.

 

[Gravesj1s]

because I was just thinking about it earlier today:

I have some really old LR in my DT. (Over 15 years in my reef aquariums.) This method of PO4 removal is very effective at making them perform as "new" once again.
Old tank syndrome now has a name and it's called accumulated phosphates. Don't believe all that heavy metal BS. JMO.

-Hi Gary,

The last sentence in your statement above is somewhat confusing.

With a good percentage of aquarists (myself included) using kalkwasser reactors,some of these by design combine continuous stirring/ aka ,slurry have been shown or certainly have the ability to add impurities to the aquarium. Its interesting you note the lathanum Cloride pulls PO4 from live rock but copper?I guess I dont quite follow your methology on not "believing all that heavy metal BS" Its one thing to state the ability to bind phosphates,seems another to make the claim phosphate is the sole cause of dredded old tank syndrome. It "might" work but from reading through your posts here,the use of Lathanum Cloride is a fairly unknown area as it stands.

I would think a vinegar soak would be a safer approach at least for now.Also, has the ability to strip heavy metals that "may"have become problematic. I maybe entirely wrong.I have been out of the hobby a really long time so theirs probably much I've missed in knew advances over the years.
Great thread by the way thanks for the insights,
-Graves

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

re: old tank syndrome

re: old tank syndrome

several years ago Shimek was a big proponent of the metal poisoning theory.
I don't buy it. That's all.

Accumulated PO4 is the root cause for the vast majority of "old tank syndrome" cases that I've seen.

I'm not sure of your question(s) but maybe this will answer some:

*Although it's regarded as "fact" in certain circles, I've yet to personally see any hard evidence or proof of limewater precipitating phosphates (or copper for that matter.)
*The addition of kalk slurry to a reef aquarium should be avoided (especially if you have sensitive corals like Acropora etc.) because you want to avoid adding impurities. Only use the clear limewater. Avoid introducing any kalk precip into your aquarium.
*As far as I know LaCl2 doesn't precipitate copper.

I hope that helps somewhat.....

 

[captain7359]

One of the articles I remember reading stated that the mathematical ratio for binding and phos reduction was coming out much less in real life than on paper. The calculation was X mg of precipitate was supposed to be forming, but only .2-.3X was actually precipitating. Wish I could grab the article, but they suggested that either the LaCl was reacting with other chemicals or was binding to other molecules. They stated that the test for "free" LaCl came back at near zero.

 

[tmz]

I worry about accumulated metals and not just from kalk. Since I use a still reservoir , I dose virtually no slurry. Salt mixes and food contribute too, not to mention faulty equipment potential. Fortunately, most free metals will be quickly bound into organics and with GAC and good skimming, it is hoped removed. Shifts in ph and other variables,however, can cause speciation to more toxic forms though. I personally still use polyfilter and a bag of cuprisorb ongoing for extra protection.

Perhaps carbon dosing(
vodka, vinegar,etc) helps too by maintaining a crop of bacteria which may metabolize some metals.

I agree - lanthanum can help in rock cooking for PO4 removal, since the lowering of PO4 levels in the water will , I believe , encourage equilibration of PO4 in/on the rock.

If rock has been exposed to copper or other toxic metals , I agree that an acid bath will help. However, it will kill desirable organisms leaving base rock.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

cap- grab that article and post a link!

 

[captain7359]

I bought SeaKlear on line. Can't recall the exact math but I compared the removal rates for the Brightwell product and the Sea Klear and landed on the 70% ro dilution. Sea Klear goes for about $30/$35 a quart. So with dilution you can get about 7 or 8x as much as you get in a $25 of the Brightwell product.

Tom, are you saying that you dose at 30% SeaKlear/70% Ro?

Would there be any down side to diluting the solution more other than a longer drip time? I was thinking of diluting mine out to 2.5 gallons that fit in my kent doser jug. i assume a lower concentration will allow a better mixing with tank water and give a more consistent precipitation as it is exposed to a greater volume of tank water over a longer period.

Do you need a certain LaCl concentration in your dosing solution for it to be effective at binding the phos?

 

[captain7359]

from the Aquality Symposium

<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 vAlign=top align=left width=150>Guest






</TD><TD class=row1 vAlign=top width="100%" height=28><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: Lanthanum Water Chemistry</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap> </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Hi Nick,

We have tested our systems for residual Lanthanum and have not been able to detect it. The limit of detection, using ICP/MS is around 7 ppb. So we know under normal dosing conditions the Lanthanum residual is less than that. As for the possibility of the La3+ to concentrate in the tissues of the fish, as in the liver, well this metal is not what is considered as a heavy metal. It's chemistry is more closely likened to the alkaline earth metals and some of our research indicates that it has similar properties to Barium. If any La3+ was absorbed it would most likely be excreted through the gut or possibly with the urea.

As you would guess, we would need to know a bit more info concerning what occured with the local fish store. Two things to note, when La3+ combines with the reactive phosphate it will release a hydronium ion, thereby adding a acidic charge to the water. Also, Lanthanum carbonate is not very soluble, even though Lanthanum phosphate (at an alkaline pH) is extremely insoluble, it can depending on conditions precipitate out as the carbonate. These two actions when combined can potentially have an notable impact on the systems pH. Perhaps you could find more from the local fish store owner more details concerning the occurence if you would care to.

Best of Regards,
Thoram</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 vAlign=top align=left width=150>mstafford



Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Springfield Missouri
</TD><TD class=row1 vAlign=top width="100%" height=28><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: la</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap> </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Lanthanum exists in nature as xenotine and monazite which are two orthophospate minerals. (other forms as well) It takes considerable engineering to purify. I would imagine that the lapo4 we are producing is inert. There are some uses for lanthanum as a phosphate binder in chronic renal failure patients and while we will find accumulation in the liver no one has been able to pinpoint a specific toxicity considered harmful to the patient. There is some toxicity of pure lanthanum to daphnia. The system we used la on had about 16 kg of phosphate in it. We used 60 liters of a 42% solution LaCL. In theory it should be a one to one exchange, it actually is about a 4 to 1 or it takes around four times more lanthanum than it should. What is the lanthanum reacting with? Most likely is primarily CO3. There are way smarter people than me working with this stuff maybe they can contribute?
_________________
Michael D. Stafford DVM
Wonders of Wildlife Zooquarium
Springfield Missouri.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[captain7359]

I suggest being "beer free" if you're going to tackle this article, but there's some serious infor here if you haven't already seen it.

http://aalso.org/2009presentations/ZhangWongOrthophosphateRemovalPaper.pdf

From page 7

Application rate of lanthanum bonds to orthophosphate was denoted at a ratio of 1:1
(Mills.2005), i.e., it takes 1ppm lanthanum to remove 1ppm orthophosphate from
freshwater. However, in our laboratory experiments with seawater, the ratio was 5:2
plus filtration with < 0.45 μm pore size. In the real-time trial at the sealion pool, only
approximately 5:1 ratio was observed (1ppm orthophosphate removal with 5.4 ppm
La(gly)​

​

​

​

3). It is possible that the lower efficiency than 1:1 was due to the higher ions in
seawater than in freshwater, as lanthanum can bond and flocculate other minerals​

(Tokunaga; 1999)

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanks for that, Walter