Lanthanum chloride

[Awibrandy]

Gary, thank you very much for starting this thread, and sharing your experience with the rest of us! I actually do not like complicated things so I choose to go at your route. I have enough with duo reactors, skimmer, ato.lol Plus I am not a chemist, or engineer.
My story is way to long so I will just post my short experience with Lathanum Chloride.


I started dosing 5ml to 1 gallon of RO/DI water in to one of my drain socks at about 1 drop per minute Saturday evening 3/16/2013 after a reefer friend told me about it.

Of the gallon I only dripped less then a cup in 4 days. I stopped the treatment yesterday because my P04 went from 0.11 ppm tested 3/13/2013 to 0.03 ppm yesterday 3/20/2013. This morning ran 4 test with the following results - 0.02 - 0.20 - 0.00 - 0.05. I use the Hanna Checker which rarely gives me consecutive equal results. What a PITA.
Alkalinity, Calcium, and Mag were not optimal before I began dosing. I did have all pars drop some, but not certain that it was caused by the lathanum. I did dose alk the same night I began dosing the lathanum, and I did continue to run the gac & gfo.
All corals SPS, LPS, and softies, shrimps (cleaner & red), hermits & snails appear to be fine. I don't have any fish at the moment.
Cyano has begun to recede, gha I can't tell since I did manually remove some of the small patches.

I am grateful for this thread as I was quite apprehensive of this chemical!!
You guys have reassured me.

Now, I am not a very patient person so I have a question; Can I dose some "ChemiChlean" to help rid the tank of this unsightly cyano?

 

[miatawnt2b]

I did my first dose of Lanthanum Chloride last night. dripped 2ml (aquired from a pool store) in 100ml water into my sump return running directly into a 10 micron filter sock. at the end the sock was definately flowing a bit slower, but when I pulled it out, it still looked pretty clean. Does the precipate make the sock brown immediately? or is the precipate white/translucent? Should I up the lanthanum dosage?

-J

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Gary, thank you very much for starting this thread, and sharing your experience with the rest of us! Now, I am not a very patient person so I have a question; Can I dose some "ChemiChlean" to help rid the tank of this unsightly cyano?

you're welcome and Chemiclean = GFO + GAC.

GFO (granular ferric oxide) is used to lower PO4 and this will help eliminate red slime/cyano.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I did my first dose of Lanthanum Chloride last night. dripped 2ml (aquired from a pool store) in 100ml water into my sump return running directly into a 10 micron filter sock. at the end the sock was definately flowing a bit slower, but when I pulled it out, it still looked pretty clean. Does the precipate make the sock brown immediately? or is the precipate white/translucent? Should I up the lanthanum dosage?-J

precip is dirty white and difficult to see visually. (easier to feel!)

You should not have pulled the sock out.
Before you up the dosage you should continue dosing with that sock at the same concentration. Dose till it clogs. Stop dosing if water in the system starts turning white.

 

[Awibrandy]

you're welcome and Chemiclean = GFO + GAC.

GFO (granular ferric oxide) is used to lower PO4 and this will help eliminate red slime/cyano.

Hey Gary, "ChemiClean" is different then "ChemiPure" which is GFO + GAC.
"ChemiClean" is a red slime, cyano bacteria remover manufactured by Boyd same company that makes Chemi Pure along with several other products.

Yes, I understand the job of GFO. My question is more do to my little knowledge of the lathanum chloride that I dosed in to my reef for 3 consecutive days. Since the P04 in my reef went from 0.11 ppm down to .03 I stopped dosing.
I am still running the BRS dual Reactors containing GFO & GAC. I did suction out the cyano that was on the middle rock today.
But the green cyano on the sand is proving to be a bit difficult, and it looks disgusting.

Back to my original question: Can I dose "ChemiClean Red Slime Remover" so close to having dosed lathanum Chloride?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Sorry for confusing "Chemiclean" with "Chemipure".
I don't know what's in "Chemiclean" and I've never used it so I can't answer your question. Personally, I wouldn't start mixing different treatments.
Whatever you decide to do, monitor alkalinity closely and realize that ALL good things take time in a reef aquarium.

 

[tmz]

Nobody knows for sure what's in Boyd's Chemi clean other than the manufacturer, likely an oxidant and/or antibiotic. There have been some nasty tank crashes reported after using it. I doubt any raction with the lanthanum will occur, per se, but you likely won't need it in time if you siphon out the cyano and keep PO4 low. If you opt to use it be careful, do the water changes , siphon out as much cyano before treatment as you can, run extra gac after treament and skim well after treatment and follow the manufacturer's recommendations crefully. It's a bit dangerous , imo. I've personally used it yers ago but wont use it anymore.

 

[Awibrandy]

Sorry for confusing "Chemiclean" with "Chemipure".
I don't know what's in "Chemiclean" and I've never used it so I can't answer your question. Personally, I wouldn't start mixing different treatments.
Whatever you decide to do, monitor alkalinity closely and realize that ALL good things take time in a reef aquarium.

It's perfectly okay Gary. With so many different products on the market for this hobby/addiction confusing products every now an again is to be expected. Especially when you have so much going through ones brain.

What I did do was call Boyd. The gentleman I spoke with did not know anything about Lanthanum, and also advised against mixing the two treatments.
In the mean time what I have done is to do my weekly water change while vacuuming the sand bed where I could reach with my python. The rock bridge still has the micro air bubbles which tells me that rock is still having an issue with cyano. This rock is fairly new to the system though (about 3 months).
Not only has the alk gone down, but so have the mag & cal. Therefor I have been dosing those daily.
I am getting some wacky P04 results with the Hanna Checker. This is a bit annoying. For example on the 21st. I ran 4 individual test which gave 4 different results: 0.02, 0.20, 0.00, 0.05. As you can imagine this is quite frustrating.
Anyway, after changing out socks, and doing my weekly water change I restarted the Lanthanum drip again.

Nobody knows for sure what's in Boyd's Chemi clean other than the manufacturer, likely an oxidant and/or antibiotic. There have been some nasty tank crashes reported after using it. I doubt any raction with the lanthanum will occur, per se, but you likely won't need it in time if you siphon out the cyano and keep PO4 low. If you opt to use it be careful, do the water changes , siphon out as much cyano before treatment as you can, run extra gac after treament and skim well after treatment and follow the manufacturer's recommendations crefully. It's a bit dangerous , imo. I've personally used it yers ago but wont use it anymore.

Thank you for your input! I did not use the "Chemi Clean" as per Gary, and John at Boyd. Pretty sure you guys are right, and I just need to exercise some much needed patience!! Patience is not my strongest suit.:rolleye1: Actually lack of patience is what got my reef to the state it is in now.

I had use Chemi Clean a few years ago with no ill effects to my reef, or animals. It actually worked well, and I only needed the one dose.
I always follow all manufactures directions on what ever I use. Not sure why others tanks crashed after using "Chemi Clean". I have never heard of this.

 

[Bladez]

Stumped:

Using 10 ml of Lanthanum mixed in one gallon of RO water.

Scenario #1: I run a slow 1-2 drops per second regimen and my 5 micron filter bag never clogs up over a 3-4 hour period.

Scenario #2: I run a steady drip 3-4 drops per second regimen and I clog 2 filter bags (5 micron) within a 1-2 hour period.

Q: What is happening here? Should I use scenario 1 or 2?

I do not get any participate using either scenario on my bare bottom display tank.

 

[mth1993]

After trying water changes and GFO for 4 months to lower phos on a 300 g tank that was ignored for almost 18 months. I am ready to try Lanthanum Chloride. I have read every thread I can find on the subject and many external pages. My 5 micron socks arrived today and the SeaKlear should be here friday. I have 1 main question remaining method. I am considering one of two methods.

First would be to use a dosing pump to put a small amount into my overflow which is around 20' of 1" spaflex. Have this empty into a 5 micron sock that will have a flow switch mounted about 2" from the top. The float switch will disable the dosing pump and send a text to change the sock.
===Pros = lots of flow low likely hood will exhaust phos allowing Lanthanum to pass into the tank.
===Cons - 5 micron sock of overflow may become clogged quickly even without Lanthanum and if settles in oveflow or drain spaflex may be hassle to clean.

The second is, have a 5 gallon bucket feed off my return manifold with a slow flow rate into the top of the sock, drain hole about 4" below top of the sock into another 5 micron sock, use a dosing pump to dose small amount of Lanthanum, have a small pump in bottom of bucket (on 2-3 layers of egg crate) that also feeds the filter sock. Again the sock would have float switch to disable the dosing pump and send a text to change the sock.
===Pros-feed comes after skimmer, fuge, and 200 micron filter socks so will be cleaner than overflow, majority of reaction in bucket for ease of cleaning, extra 5 micron filter sock
===Cons - extra electrcity usage from pump, possible heat from pump (some think this causes Lanthanum to not bind to phos properly), flow rate may not be fast enough to provide enough phos for Lanthanum).

I am going to start slow and monitor things closely.

Any input on the pro's and cons of these methods or feedback on other ideas is greatly appropriated.

 

[wayne_sreef]

I started dosing LC last night on my 450g system. For start the phosphate level is around 0.35ppm per Hanna checker. I mixed 4cc of LC with 2000cc of RO/DI water and drip it into a 10 micron filter sock at about 1 drip every 5 seconds. The filter soak is located in the same tank that is housing the skimmer. I added a 5 micron filter sock at the outlet of the tank trying to catch any run away participates before going into the sump. So far so good, as of this morning I notice some clogging in the 10 micron sock, but there is no sign of cloudiness in the DT. I will try to measure the phosphate level at end of dosing period to compare.

 

[insomniac2k2]

I've never been a big fan of socks. Especially for a permanent LC drip type of a thing. IMO, the sock will become clogged so fast that you might as well baby sit the LC application. Not to say that it doesn't/wont work. I just feel that there may be some better options.

If you do opt to use filter socks (unattended). It looks like you have your bases covered. What I don't like is that the moment that your filter sock starts overflowing, you now have precipitates and LC escaping into your sump, and back into your DT.

Keep in mind that I have a slight bias on how to apply LC, but I've been testing running a 2 stage LC reactor that I made that w/ pretty good success. I believe answers most of "my" concerns for LC.

It's a relatively simple design, and similar to a few that i've read about. Stage 1 reactor is fed off of a T from return pump with a Ball valve to slow the rate down to about 5g an hour.

There is a T before this stage 1 that I feed a 1.1 ml dosing pump w/ check valve (diluted LC). The water and LC feeds into the OUTLET side that has a small piece of tubing that extends about 1/2 the way down inside the empty chamber.

After the LC mixes/reacts, it feeds into phase 2 reactor inlet. Further mixing/reacting, then feeds back up and out through a container of densely packed filter floss. The outlet then directly feeds into my skimmer inlet.

If i had a 3rd reactor, id run it through carbon, then out to the skimmer.

The reason why I went this route is because im not a fan of releasing the precipitate or un-reacted LC into my system. My thoughts towards LC use is to use it VERY low dose and very often. I never want to strip every free phosphate from my water that im treating. This means that I now have free and un-reacted LC making its way into my DT.

Sorry. I don't mean to make it seem like an advertisement. Just giving you some food for thought towards alternative solutions.

After trying water changes and GFO for 4 months to lower phos on a 300 g tank that was ignored for almost 18 months. I am ready to try Lanthanum Chloride. I have read every thread I can find on the subject and many external pages. My 5 micron socks arrived today and the SeaKlear should be here friday. I have 1 main question remaining method. I am considering one of two methods.

First would be to use a dosing pump to put a small amount into my overflow which is around 20' of 1" spaflex. Have this empty into a 5 micron sock that will have a flow switch mounted about 2" from the top. The float switch will disable the dosing pump and send a text to change the sock.
===Pros = lots of flow low likely hood will exhaust phos allowing Lanthanum to pass into the tank.
===Cons - 5 micron sock of overflow may become clogged quickly even without Lanthanum and if settles in oveflow or drain spaflex may be hassle to clean.

The second is, have a 5 gallon bucket feed off my return manifold with a slow flow rate into the top of the sock, drain hole about 4" below top of the sock into another 5 micron sock, use a dosing pump to dose small amount of Lanthanum, have a small pump in bottom of bucket (on 2-3 layers of egg crate) that also feeds the filter sock. Again the sock would have float switch to disable the dosing pump and send a text to change the sock.
===Pros-feed comes after skimmer, fuge, and 200 micron filter socks so will be cleaner than overflow, majority of reaction in bucket for ease of cleaning, extra 5 micron filter sock
===Cons - extra electrcity usage from pump, possible heat from pump (some think this causes Lanthanum to not bind to phos properly), flow rate may not be fast enough to provide enough phos for Lanthanum).

I am going to start slow and monitor things closely.

Any input on the pro's and cons of these methods or feedback on other ideas is greatly appropriated.

 

[kyocera]

I know it has been mentioned during the earlier posts of this old thread. Where can I get the 10 or 5 micron socks lately? Looking for a online site. Thanks

 

[Elliott]

as a completely safe alternative to LC and if you have Bryopsis isolated to a few areas:

I blocked the light by cementing flexible pvc matting (grey matting used under showers during installation and sold by the foot at HD). The matting is easily cut to size with regular scissors and glued down with aqua mend/superglue

I left it in place for 2 weeks and presto! No more Bryopsis!

btw I also use this matting to cover my overflows from light to avoid algae growth

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

But E....

But E....

as an completely safe alternative to LC and if you have Bryopsis isolated to a few areas:

I blocked the light by cementing flexible pvc matting (grey matting used under showers during installation and sold by the foot at HD). The matting is easily cut to size with regular scissors and glued down with aqua mend/superglue

I left it in place for 2 weeks and presto! No more Bryopsis!

btw I also use this matting to cover my overflows from light to avoid algae growth

This is very contradictary to the approach suggested by this thread.

As soon as you remove the matting Bryopsis (ar another algae) can grow back.
Suggestion: why not allow algae to grow on the overflows to act as a sort of scrubber?

IMO/IME Lanthanum chloride should not be used to control Bryopsis or any other algae... use it to control PO4 levels!

 

[Elliott]

This is very contradictary to the approach suggested by this thread.

As soon as you remove the matting Bryopsis (ar another algae) can grow back.
Suggestion: why not allow algae to grow on the overflows to act as a sort of scrubber?

IMO/IME Lanthanum chloride should not be used to control Bryopsis or any other algae... use it to control PO4 levels!

Gary, to my surprise it has not grown back in the areas I blocked with the matting, it's been several months now

I personally would be happier not having Bryopsis growing anywhere in my system, I do have two ATS's that fortunately have not grown Bryopsis since I've been constantly dosing Magnesion P

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Magnesion P takes out Bryopsis (similar to Tech M)?

 

[Elliott]

Magnesion P takes out Bryopsis (similar to Tech M)?

Yes! Actually the guy that formulated Tech M started Brightwell, so Magnesion P has the same formulation, however it comes in powder form 5g bucket, much cheaper than Tech M liquid.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

that's good to know... but the areas you blocked with PVC matting were in the same system getting treated with Mg P?

 

[Elliott]

that's good to know... but the areas you blocked with PVC matting were in the same system getting treated with Mg P?

Yes, I had some residual areas that were slowly decreasing in size so I covered them with the matting.

Since dripping Mag P continuously I have had almost complete Bryopsis clearing of my system, including my ATS's. The exception were these residual areas up high under my lights, that died off with the matting. Mg levels run 1600-1800 ave