Lanthanum chloride

Sorry if this question has been covered, but is it common ( or has anyone experienced) an increase in algae growth when beginning to dose LaCl?
Dosing schedule I started about a week ago:
1:100 dilution of LaCl
1.1ml every 15 minutes into a 30 gallon container. The container has a 3000 gph powerhead aimed towards the area where the LaCl enters the water. Lots of turbulent flow. The container is fed by a maxijet 1200 (guessing around 150-200gph?)
Overflow from container then flows through a 5 micron sock.
Same feeding schedule/amounts.
Since starting, I've noticed an increase in all algae growth over the last few days. The P04 level hasn't changed too much, about .02. NO3 levels also haven't really changed either, though they have always been low (.5 or less). But definitely an increase in algae growth.
Any thoughts on why this would be the case? Would binding the inorganic phosphates allow the organic phosphates to be more readily available? And does algae have a preference to one form of phosphate over the other?
And while I'm at it, how long does it take LaCl to react with phosphates? Would I gain anything if I put the container's feed pump on a timer and had it synced with the LaCl drip so that it would shut off for five minutes or so after the drip, giving the LaCl time to work on a given amount of water? Then fire the pump back up to exchange the water in the container with more water?
TIA
 
When I used LC, I mixed 5ml to 2 gal and dripped using a doser on my controller over a two day period though a 5 micron filter sock.

I have a 5 gal bucket plumbed into my drain. part of the water is diverted into the bucket, the LC drip is fed into the bucket to allow some additional dwell time tio bind prior to exiting the bucket and into the filter sock. I was concerned the free LC wouldn't bind, exit the filter sock and enter my system.

After a few doses over a month, my PO4 was undetectable, but all of my expensive 2" GF valves are stuck. I beleive the LC effected this as they were always free from Ca for years and worked perfectly.

What did I miss in the set up or dosing procedures?

BTW, the system is 280G
 
Tigé21v said:
Sorry if this question has been covered, but is it common ( or has anyone experienced) an increase in algae growth when beginning to dose LaCl?
Dosing schedule I started about a week ago:
1:100 dilution of LaCl
1.1ml every 15 minutes into a 30 gallon container. The container has a 3000 gph powerhead aimed towards the area where the LaCl enters the water. Lots of turbulent flow. The container is fed by a maxijet 1200 (guessing around 150-200gph?)
Overflow from container then flows through a 5 micron sock.
Same feeding schedule/amounts.
Since starting, I've noticed an increase in all algae growth over the last few days. The P04 level hasn't changed too much, about .02. NO3 levels also haven't really changed either, though they have always been low (.5 or less). But definitely an increase in algae growth.
Any thoughts on why this would be the case?

Don't know; never had that experience when I dosed it. Could be some competitors for nutrients like phytoplankton need less PO4 than whatever algae is waxing( some algae oligotrophic types can thrive in low nutrient water). Perhaps the rock is leaching back some bound PO4 species with less PO4 in the water give an advange to algae there.

It's also cinceivable with low PO4 that the lanthanum is binding mostly carbonate reducing the alkalinity ( I'd check it) and/or PH favoring certain species of alge over other competitors.

 Would binding the inorganic phosphates allow the organic phosphates to be more readily available? And does algae have a preference to one form of phosphate over the other?

I don't think so,generally. Some types may be able to access soluble reactive phosaaphte( including organic phosphate more easily).

Depends on the algae and /or bacterial enzymes in play.


And while I'm at it, how long does it take LaCl to react with phosphates?

It clouds instantlly as it precipitates as lanthanum phosaphate and/or lanthanum carbonate. Some free lanthanum likely escapes when PO4 is scarce though.

Would I gain anything if I put the container's feed pump on a timer and had it synced with the LaCl drip so that it would shut off for five minutes or so after the drip, giving the LaCl time to work on a given amount of water? Then fire the pump back up to exchange the water in the container with more water?


Probably not. That would likely result in more lanthaum carbonate and less lanthanum phosphate precipitating. Lanthanum has limits in salt water in terms of PO4 reduction . When PO4 is sparse more of it it binds with carbonate. Lanthanum is smaller than water molecules; so, any free lanthanum will pass through any filter water passes through. Perhaps some precipitant in the tank is fueling certain algae
TIA
Click to expand...
 
michael guenther said:
michael guenther said:
result aftter using the 10% lacl3.
dilute 4 liter RO water with 3 ml of lacl3, one drop a second for 24 hour,po4 from 0.79 to 0.53 with normal 50 micron socks.
no harm to fish or coral[/QUOt

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8287&pictureid=70088

Ok, long time no see.
This is my primitive lanthanum reactor, which I use for 5 Mons and radius po4 from 1.40 to o.35.
After a break of 6 Mons, the po4 rise again to 1.40, but I must mention that my aquarium 1s 16 years old. Now I think not to stop it, but dilute the concentration much lower for longer time.
Click to expand...
another 4 month go by and still running high po4, a few question: first have cl powder limited period of affectionately, second dilute cl loose affectionately, even when store in a black jar.:hammer:
the reactor i build have no valve or pump(see picture)the water go's in it thru the main pump and the cl thru a dosing pump
.
never had any problem with algae from any kind :fun2:
Click to expand...
 
Finally finished reading the 50 page novel. Quite a read!! To all the people who ask the same questions over and over, I applaud the patience of Gary and others. So at the risk of being one of those people, here goes! :) Have had 180 tank mixed reef up and running for 9 years. Never had issues until this last year after I mechanically scrubbed all my LR to get rid of encrusting build up on rocks (brownish crap, not coralline but did have some of that too). That started a bad breakout of long stringy GHA, which I havent had since my initial cycle. My thought was I released a bunch of bound up phospates. Have done lots of water change since, have large thriving cheato, skim heavily, but have now been fighting this stuff for 9 months. Every 2-3 weeks siphon out the GHA with heavy 1/4 inch plastic tube and do 20% WC. I was about ready to break down my tank chocking it up to old tank syndrome until i found this thread.

So I purchased commercial Seaklear, 5 micron bags and a hanna phospate tester. Before i started checked my phospates twice and both tmes 0.0. I know I have phosphates with the amount of GHA i harvest, so assumed its not in the WC and being consumed by GHA. I treated 2 sessions of 5ml in 1 liter RODI for a total of 10 ml in 2 liters over a 30+ hour timeframe dripping with BRS dosing pumps directly into 5 micron filter bag. Made sure my alkilinty was increased during the LC dosing. Tank showed no signs of distess and 5 micron filter did collect brownish stuff and filled up 3/4 but never overflowed even after adding 10ml in about a 24 hour period. Skimmer collected cosiderable greyish fluid while being set pretty wet. Never saw any white clouds or precipitate in the tank.

So here is my question. With Hannah low tester saying phoshates are zero in the water column, how is LC really pulling out the phosphate if its bound up in my LR and trapped in the GHA? Do I keep dosing until GHA starts dying off? I am fearful that since phosphates are registering 0.0 in my test that the LC doesn't have enough phospate to react with and some may be going straight into my tank escaping through the 5 micron filter. Guess i was expecting my phosphates to be off the chart and my filter bag to be clogging in a couple hours given all the GHA i have been battling. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark
 
Finally finished reading the 50 page novel. Quite a read!! To all the people who ask the same questions over and over, I applaud the patience of Gary and others. So at the risk of being one of those people, here goes! :) Have had 180 tank mixed reef up and running for 9 years. Never had issues until this last year after I mechanically scrubbed all my LR to get rid of encrusting build up on rocks (brownish crap, not coralline but did have some of that too). That started a bad breakout of long stringy GHA, which I havent had since my initial cycle. My thought was I released a bunch of bound up phospates. Have done lots of water change since, have large thriving cheato, skim heavily, but have now been fighting this stuff for 9 months. Every 2-3 weeks siphon out the GHA with heavy 1/4 inch plastic tube and do 20% WC. I was about ready to break down my tank chocking it up to old tank syndrome until i found this thread.

So I purchased commercial Seaklear, 5 micron bags and a hanna phospate tester. Before i started checked my phospates twice and both tmes 0.0. I know I have phosphates with the amount of GHA i harvest, so assumed its not in the WC and being consumed by GHA. I treated 2 sessions of 5ml in 1 liter RODI for a total of 10 ml in 2 liters over a 30+ hour timeframe dripping with BRS dosing pumps directly into 5 micron filter bag. Made sure my alkilinty was increased during the LC dosing. Tank showed no signs of distess and 5 micron filter did collect brownish stuff and filled up 3/4 but never overflowed even after adding 10ml in about a 24 hour period. Skimmer collected cosiderable greyish fluid while being set pretty wet. Never saw any white clouds or precipitate in the tank.

So here is my question. With Hannah low tester saying phoshates are zero in the water column, how is LC really pulling out the phosphate if its bound up in my LR and trapped in the GHA? Do I keep dosing until GHA starts dying off? I am fearful that since phosphates are registering 0.0 in my test that the LC doesn't have enough phospate to react with and some may be going straight into my tank escaping through the 5 micron filter. Guess i was expecting my phosphates to be off the chart and my filter bag to be clogging in a couple hours given all the GHA i have been battling. Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark
 
I suggest at least a 2 prong attack

I suggest at least a 2 prong attack

Get herbivores and keep po4 low.
It sounds like you could really use a long spine urchin to open up rock surface.
And patience.
This really works.
 
Gary Majchrzak said:
Get herbivores and keep po4 low.
It sounds like you could really use a long spine urchin to open up rock surface.
And patience.
This really works.
Click to expand...

Gary.....thanks for responding. Good call on long spine urchin. May get a couple. So how often would you recommend I dose the 5ml in 1 liter RODI slow drip? Everyday? Every other day? Couple times a week?

I am patient and will win this war! :bounce3:
 
Have you checked your NO3 lately,...just curious,...I'm following another thread that shows a raise in NO3 will bring down PO4.
 
So here is my question. With Hannah low tester saying phoshates are zero in the water column, how is LC really pulling out the phosphate if its bound up in my LR and trapped in the GHA?

PO4 bound to surfaces equilibrates with the level in the water. So. over time the PO4 leaching from surfaces will abate when the surrounding PO4 in the water is kept low.Assuming no testing error, with zero PO4 readings , I suspect the LC is not doing much for PO4 and the algae is using organic phosphate.


Unfortunately, not all of the phosphate is PO4 species;some is organic and some of that is soluble reactive phosphate accessible to some algae and other organisms. LC binds PO4 and/or carbonate.Generally, at very low levels of PO4(inorganic phosphate) it tends toward more binding with carbonate .

Do I keep dosing until GHA starts dying off? I am fearful that since phosphates are registering 0.0 in my test that the LC doesn't have enough phospate to react with and some may be going straight into my tank escaping through the 5 micron filter.



If you are dosing it very slowly even at zero PO4 most of it will bind up and precipitate as lanthanum carbonate depleting carbonate alkalinity . Some ,free LC will probably get through; it's smaller than water molecules.Personally, I would stop dosing LC if PO4 readings are zero.

Guess i was expecting my phosphates to be off the chart and my filter bag to be clogging in a couple hours given all the GHA i have been battling. Any guidance is appreciated.


I think an urchin will help. The only one I'm wary of is a diadema which does attack some corals IME but there are others that are pretty safe; rock urchins for example and other types. Most will graze coraline and crusty material on rock surfaces and should help open things up as Gary noted.

I'd also siphon out detritus buildups and remove / replace older substrate incrementally over time.
 
Last edited:
tmz gives good advice above

tmz gives good advice above

Aiptasia King said:
Gary.....thanks for responding. Good call on long spine urchin. May get a couple. So how often would you recommend I dose the 5ml in 1 liter RODI slow drip? Everyday? Every other day? Couple times a week?

I am patient and will win this war! :bounce3:
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't worry about LC making it into my display because I dose at very low levels and only during my water changes.
That's the beauty of this method!
Zero po4 on a Hanna low range checker would concern me because zero is undesirable.

Yank the gha by hand if you don't trust herbivores.
Monitor alkalinity!
 
tmz said:

PO4 bound to surfaces equilibrates with the level in the water. So. over time the PO4 leaching from surfaces will stop when the surrounding PO4 in the water is kept low.

Interesting,...I didn't know that it would stop leaching if PO4 is present in the water column. Thanks Tom.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Gary and Tom for your quick responses. I harvested all the GHA (again!) tonight and did a 20% water change. Couple things I think and hope are good signs. First, while siphoning the algae I moved my brain coral. It has been very hard and withdrawn since my algae hell started. When I touched it, I was shocked! It was very fleshy and soft to the touch. Only thing I have done is dose 10ml of LC and increased my alkalinity while dosing LC, so thinking phosphates were hurting it. 2nd thing, the majority of the GHA came off very easy this time. It was almost too easy to remove. So hoping the LC is starting to work its magic.

Plan to dose 5ml again tomorrow over 12+ hours. Hoping with GHA gone the phosphates will begin to leach into the water and can be removed by the LC. So ready to end the vicious algae cycle and hoping it will soon be running out of gas (phosphates)! Ready to get back to having a beautiful tank.

Thanks
Mark
 
007Bond said:
tmz said:

PO4 bound to surfaces equilibrates with the level in the water. So. over time the PO4 leaching from surfaces will stop when the surrounding PO4 in the water is kept low.

Interesting,...I didn't know that it would stop leaching if PO4 is present in the water column. Thanks Tom.
Click to expand...



To clarify, it equilibriates with the water. The adsorbtion to the rock and the leaching back relate to the PO4 level in the water. The process doesn't actually stop. Abate is a more precise description . I've edited the post accordingly.
Click to expand...
 
I would like to thank all who have posted. Reading 52 pages is interesting. I love this technical diy stuff.

I am going nuts trying to get my phosphate under control. GFO works for a week or so, then I have to regen with lye, and then swapping gfo and more gfo. I am going crazy. I ordered my SeaKlear online and my socks on line. I think I found the best prices on each. Only purchased 4 10 micron socks for 15.96 shipped. Quart of the SeaKlear was 36.00 shipped.

I have no room in my sump for a sock. So off to Home depot for the bucket method. MJ1200 in the sump pumping into a 5 gallon bucket with the sock and it draining back to the sump. I think 1ML with 2 gallons of ro/di water slowly dripping into the sock to start. I have 53 gallon system. Bucket number 2 will be for the wet skimmate.

should I somehow add filterfloss in the sump to catch any additional particulate?
Also would a mj600 be better to increase the time the seaklear has with the water vs the mj1200?

thanks

rich
 
I've done 3 treatments in my live rock vat and 2 treatment to my DT. Almost all rocks have been removed. I have a phosphate reading of 0 in my rock vat(outside on deck) and the temp is 39 degrees and there is still algae on the rock, and requires a bit of effort to take off that algae.

I am amazed at how tough algae is.

rich
 
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