You wont miss much biodiversity when you hand pick a detrivore package.......at least not the good stuff.........snails,pods,worms,macro algaes etc. As for controlling things.......dry + hand picked editions is by far the best we can do.
Live sand---no. FYI
- Thread starter Sk8r
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You wont miss much biodiversity when you hand pick a detrivore package.......at least not the good stuff.........snails,pods,worms,macro algaes etc. As for controlling things.......dry + hand picked editions is by far the best we can do.
Just as an FYI, I did start a tank with nice live rock (dry sand) and had 52 separate species come along with it, from sponge, mushrooms, xenia, bits of coral, all of which survived the cycle...you can buy the worms, limpets, etc, and I do recommend that, but in 50 lbs of mature live rock, I got some very nice little gifts of rock-attached life, even including, of all things, live mysis shrimp. Must've been eggs.
I think he was referring to comments like........theres nothing in the bag but sand and water, or.........live sand is useless, or.....nothing could survive in the bag. Those type of statements are not true, or rather, unfactual and misleading to someone researching the subject. Granted, some live sand products are likely garbage...others, particularly Carib Sea and Natures Ocean, who list an expiration date on the package, are pretty decent and particularly useful to someone using dead/dry rock in a new set up.
Sweet on the mysis.
There is no denying, you can get some cool things with live rock that would be hard to, if not impossible to find otherwise.That dormant bacteria they add is very resilient. It can stay alive for a long time. I don't know exactly how long but some bacteria can "sleep" for longer than we humans live in very unfavorable conditions. Didn't they find dormant bacteria in a frozen Mammoth a while back?
I really don't doubt that most of this sand actually has some life on it. It is just that it isn't anything that will spread in a day or two from something else. Also, what bacteria are they? If I seed it with a piece of LR I know I get cultures that has developed around corals and fish in the sea. Not something that was made for surviving insane levels levels of ammonia in sewer water. Is this bacteria any good for our tanks?
...and why the #%$& can they not wash the sand properly before spraying it?
fishgate
Active member
I just went through this with the Caribsea "live sand". I got 160lbs and put 120 in my new 125 gallon tank without rinsing it. After 3 days the tank still looked like a milkshake. So I put a fluval on it with floss only and maybe 2 days later I could finally see the bottom and rock wall. A week later it was about 90% clear but always had that "haze". The sand looked ok, very fine, but I should have rinsed it first. Had I rinsed it I think I might have kept it. It just created SO MUCH crap in the water. And yes there were sticks, shells (4" shells) buried in the sand, etc. Not to mention all the foam that was created it looked like the whole tank was a giant skimmer!
I think they literally just scoop this up from the ocean and bag it. I ended up removing all of it, dumping all of the water and getting the "special grade" reef aragonite instead. I rinsed that for a long time until the water was just slightly milky. I do not think it is possible to rinse it until it is clear! But the water was about 90% clear the day I put it in.
I sold it all on the BST and didn't even charge the purchaser for "cleaning" it for them!
I think they literally just scoop this up from the ocean and bag it. I ended up removing all of it, dumping all of the water and getting the "special grade" reef aragonite instead. I rinsed that for a long time until the water was just slightly milky. I do not think it is possible to rinse it until it is clear! But the water was about 90% clear the day I put it in.
I sold it all on the BST and didn't even charge the purchaser for "cleaning" it for them!
Reefnation.Jon
In Memoriam
along with all of the good bio-diversity you get with "really live rock" you also get the bad, nuisance bio-diversity... aptasia, majano, flat worms, parasites, crabs, the list goes on. I personally love dry rock. you can get larger pieces typically. Im not a fan of stacking a bunch of small pieces on each other. I like to seed a much of dry rock with one or two pieces of live. I also bring in small jars of wet sand from the ocean every now and then.
It really is a matter of opinion. there is more than one way to set up a tank. Good husbandry is the big picture in keeping a successful reef aquarium.
It really is a matter of opinion. there is more than one way to set up a tank. Good husbandry is the big picture in keeping a successful reef aquarium.
alexander_ktn
New member
Most "nuisance bio-diversity" is often in reality just letting stuff go until it becomes a major problem.
Aiptasia for example.... It is incredibly easy to kill and frankly, if you have an Aiptasia problem you have probably known about if, and done nothing about it, for quite a while.
The same goes for many, MANY problems we have in our tanks. It is just easier to blame some external factor (led lights and salt mixes seem popular at the moment) than to fess up that we have been lazy, sloppy, too busy and/or stupid.....and we all are every now and then.
There probably is the odd reefer that had his tank destroyed by something that came in on live rock. I would bet you that the ratio of reefers who had their tanks greatly enhanced by it are 10 000 to 1.
Aiptasia for example.... It is incredibly easy to kill and frankly, if you have an Aiptasia problem you have probably known about if, and done nothing about it, for quite a while.
The same goes for many, MANY problems we have in our tanks. It is just easier to blame some external factor (led lights and salt mixes seem popular at the moment) than to fess up that we have been lazy, sloppy, too busy and/or stupid.....and we all are every now and then.
There probably is the odd reefer that had his tank destroyed by something that came in on live rock. I would bet you that the ratio of reefers who had their tanks greatly enhanced by it are 10 000 to 1.
THis is why I'm not a fan of 'cooking' rock. I'd rather deal with the 2 pest species than lose the 50 good ones I'd kill off by cooking.
I'm upping my tank size from 54 to 105, rsn, and this is another important matter: at that size I can keep critters that will handle the pest species. That'll be a relief.
I'm upping my tank size from 54 to 105, rsn, and this is another important matter: at that size I can keep critters that will handle the pest species. That'll be a relief.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
IMO every reefkeeper should do three things:
1) go diving or snorkling on a wild reef
2) look at pictures of marine aquaria circa 1950-1975
3) research the beginnings of successful reef aquaria using Lee Chin Eng as a keyword in your search
FYI: "detrivore kits" being sold do not contain even a fraction of the biodiversity found inside real live liverock
to shun liverock because it might harbor pests yet introduce "live sand" from the ocean/beach is just plain silly (as anybody that ever cultivates phytoplankton, rotifers, larval fishes will tell you)
1) go diving or snorkling on a wild reef
2) look at pictures of marine aquaria circa 1950-1975
3) research the beginnings of successful reef aquaria using Lee Chin Eng as a keyword in your search
FYI: "detrivore kits" being sold do not contain even a fraction of the biodiversity found inside real live liverock
to shun liverock because it might harbor pests yet introduce "live sand" from the ocean/beach is just plain silly (as anybody that ever cultivates phytoplankton, rotifers, larval fishes will tell you)
Reefnation.Jon
In Memoriam
There are bennifits to both. This is why we each have our own tanks.
It is disscussions and opinions like like this that really make me enjoy RC to hear different opinions backed up with sensible facts as to their reasoning is wonderful, I fell into the live sand deal as well, dropped several hundred on it in the past and granted it did bring almost immediate life to a new refuge. If I start another soon, I would definately go with "really live rock" but I might still add some live sand also (small quanity) just to make sure I have as many benificial organisms as possible. really good discussion here
It's good when we can have divergent opinions and each stand strongly for them (they all do work) without get bent out of shape because we're not unanimous. As you say---different tanks, different needs, different situations. If I recommended ANY live sand it would be the brands with dates and minimal water.
mission accomplished!!
mission accomplished!!
My true mission in starting this debate has now been accomplished. Now people reading this thread can learn about the pros and cons of live sand as seen from both sides of the debate. The only downside is also an added plus. We seem to have lost focus and branched into live and dry rock, which like live and dry sand each have their advantages.
I agree that lack of biodiversity is why common pests in the ocean that are harmless in naturally controlled numbers can lead to disaster in our tanks. That being said, in a closed system it is very difficult to create balance and enough diversity for populations to self regulate as they do in nature.
Good to be discussing these two topics together since they relate to each other in so many ways. I just didn't like the initial direction this thread took so by taking the other side provoked a lot of responses that are now adding good factual information instead of the "rants" I commented on previously. And as others have noted, was referring to all of the opinionated comments about live sand without any supporting facts. Like it being nothing but a marketing ploy. I'm sure some less than reputable companies have added water to dry sand and sold it as live to make some extra money, but like everything in this hobby, you get what you pay for.
Also, nobody has mentioned opinions of fresh from the ocean live sand. Imo, this is even more risky than live rock as it is very likely that one of the many creatures will outcompete the majority in a closed system and could lead to big problems. No experience with this personally, but I have read a lot of stories and the unknown edwardsiidae nems trying to take over my mature tank could come in sand just as easy as live rock. Immune to aiptasia x, aggressively hunt snails, no known predators, unidentified by science, and population drastically increases and spreads when disturbed. After 6 months research and consulting the experts here, a tank tear down is the only course of action recommended.
Most people don't run into problems this drastic very often, but it is still a risk that should be weighed. You may be able to tell I used dry rock in my new tank a year from now, but manually adding will give me the chance to enjoy the magic of nature and will still have plenty of life it will just take longer to develop. I may intentionally add a dozen different things, but others will magically appear over time and it will be fun to observe the process.
No two systems or reefers are exactly the same and there is definitely no single right way to keep a tank. I like looking at the facts from both sides and then coming to a conclusion that seems best to me for my system. Like why is it every time someone mentions live sand, 5 people talk about milky water and chaos making them remove it. Either I am amazingly lucky or it's just a simple matter of following instructions. 120 lbs of ocean direct and a layer of aragamax on top in a 56g. That is alot of sand for a small tank. No rinsing, just followed instructions, which included mention of cloudy water when first added. One powerhead aimed at surface to break up foam and tank was pretty clear in a couple hours, almost clear the next morning and crystal clear by second day. I suspect most of the horror stories come from not following instructions, adding sand after water, failure to properly diffuse water when filling, and lack of surface agitation. All of these details were covered in the instructions and surely results will vary depending on brand. I could even see clearly right after filling. I love a good debate. This isn't one of those times, but I will sometimes take the less popular side of a debate even if it conflicts with my opinion just to develop a discussion and possibly learn something new.
As the title states... mission accomplished! Now this thread contains a lot of good information from different perspectives and could be a good source for people to come to their own conclusion. Happy reefing!!
mission accomplished!!
My true mission in starting this debate has now been accomplished. Now people reading this thread can learn about the pros and cons of live sand as seen from both sides of the debate. The only downside is also an added plus. We seem to have lost focus and branched into live and dry rock, which like live and dry sand each have their advantages.
I agree that lack of biodiversity is why common pests in the ocean that are harmless in naturally controlled numbers can lead to disaster in our tanks. That being said, in a closed system it is very difficult to create balance and enough diversity for populations to self regulate as they do in nature.
Good to be discussing these two topics together since they relate to each other in so many ways. I just didn't like the initial direction this thread took so by taking the other side provoked a lot of responses that are now adding good factual information instead of the "rants" I commented on previously. And as others have noted, was referring to all of the opinionated comments about live sand without any supporting facts. Like it being nothing but a marketing ploy. I'm sure some less than reputable companies have added water to dry sand and sold it as live to make some extra money, but like everything in this hobby, you get what you pay for.
Also, nobody has mentioned opinions of fresh from the ocean live sand. Imo, this is even more risky than live rock as it is very likely that one of the many creatures will outcompete the majority in a closed system and could lead to big problems. No experience with this personally, but I have read a lot of stories and the unknown edwardsiidae nems trying to take over my mature tank could come in sand just as easy as live rock. Immune to aiptasia x, aggressively hunt snails, no known predators, unidentified by science, and population drastically increases and spreads when disturbed. After 6 months research and consulting the experts here, a tank tear down is the only course of action recommended.
Most people don't run into problems this drastic very often, but it is still a risk that should be weighed. You may be able to tell I used dry rock in my new tank a year from now, but manually adding will give me the chance to enjoy the magic of nature and will still have plenty of life it will just take longer to develop. I may intentionally add a dozen different things, but others will magically appear over time and it will be fun to observe the process.
No two systems or reefers are exactly the same and there is definitely no single right way to keep a tank. I like looking at the facts from both sides and then coming to a conclusion that seems best to me for my system. Like why is it every time someone mentions live sand, 5 people talk about milky water and chaos making them remove it. Either I am amazingly lucky or it's just a simple matter of following instructions. 120 lbs of ocean direct and a layer of aragamax on top in a 56g. That is alot of sand for a small tank. No rinsing, just followed instructions, which included mention of cloudy water when first added. One powerhead aimed at surface to break up foam and tank was pretty clear in a couple hours, almost clear the next morning and crystal clear by second day. I suspect most of the horror stories come from not following instructions, adding sand after water, failure to properly diffuse water when filling, and lack of surface agitation. All of these details were covered in the instructions and surely results will vary depending on brand. I could even see clearly right after filling. I love a good debate. This isn't one of those times, but I will sometimes take the less popular side of a debate even if it conflicts with my opinion just to develop a discussion and possibly learn something new.
As the title states... mission accomplished! Now this thread contains a lot of good information from different perspectives and could be a good source for people to come to their own conclusion. Happy reefing!!
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