Live sand---no. FYI
- Thread starter Sk8r
- Start date
Perhaps all live sand isnt created equal. For my new 125 I used BRS dry eco rock and 120lbs of Natures Ocean Bio Activ Somoan Pink live sand. It sat in my garage for 4 months boxed up and yet I could see a few worms where the sand meets the glass after a month or so of the system running. At this time no live rock had been added. So the theory that nothing would be alive in live sand.......is false. At least for some of it. Worthy of note........Natures Ocean live sand has an expiration date on the bag.
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jamesbaur13
Apsiring Alhcohlolic
Premium Aquatics - Reef Flakes http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/TE-TE03616R30.html
Buy a small quantity of live sand locally.
Buy a small quantity of live sand locally.
TimeConsumer
Active member
That's why I love my LFS. They make their own live sand out of dry aragonite in 200 gallon rubbermaid tubs and sell it for $1/pound. It's full of microfauna and bacteria. I cycled in about a week.
Hydrocynus
New member
Live sand is just a marketing ploy, so they can add water weight on the bag. Just buy dry reg argonite sand and use LR to seed
I am sure that there is very good live sand here and there but it is not the market standard. Any product that requires you to not clean it and then makes your tank look like milkshake is garbage. It serves no purpose other than to save the manufactures time and sand down your impellers.
I don't believe ls is necessary, but it definitely speeds up the process. As far as weight is concerned, carib sea's new ocean direct is virtually dry in the bag, is in breathable plastic, and with free shipping and foster's price, is extremely cost effective. Also, is dated.
Because of these reasons, I used all live in my new 56g. No cycle measurable on api tests and all sand was shipped in temps close to freezing. Didn't rinse, or run any type of filter or skimmer. Just a powerhead and used sand bag over sb to keep from stirring up while filling tank. Was crystal clear in two days.
Just wanted to add since things change and biased people don't keep up with information on the other side. This whole debate needs to start with current information not past experiences. Look at current live sand prices at foster's which they ship free under standard 50 dollar minimum as dry goods. Look at dated bags. Breathable plastic that keeps sand live but has minimal moisture. And finally, ocean direct by carib sea in it's patented packing is supposed to preserve 1000 times the life of a sealed package with water. Also, if kept cool, this is no different than pods or phyto or anything else we keep alive in the fridge.
So many things in this hobby follow this pattern. Because an argument was accurate in the past, people tend to assume nothing has changed, so their arguments are still valid. Then the majority join in and people don't argue when they know better because people set in their ways rarely listen to reason and logic if it conflicts with their beliefs.
I took it a bit personal when someone said noobs are wasting money buying live sand and dry rock as a current trend. But this statement proves in itself that no research was done. I may be a noob, but I do very thorough research before making any decisions. Being a noob works to my advantage because I am able to research and compare products and ideas with zero bias. This keeps me from getting confused by outdated information that biased people try to preach with.
Sk8r, I love reading your threads and stickies. You offer great information on useful subjects explained clearly and thoroughly. That's why I took the noob trend comment so personally. I hope this thread doesn't turn to a sticky. I think it is truly bad outdated information with some important and helpful facts mixed in like the 1lb per gallon rule being for dry sand. Really though, even that is outdated. How much sand you need is decided by length and width not gallons. Also need to factor in rock scaping plans. The best way to calculate is using formulas from the manufacturer since different sands have different densities. Also, note that manufacturer's no longer recommend weight per gallon because of the reasons I mentioned.
Hopefully you don't mind that I called you out, but feel it is important. Simply, because myself and many others have a ton of faith in everything you say and post. Specially in the case of noobs, live sand is a very good idea. As all the experts know, it can be chaos in the beginning. Noobs should be wise enough to spend a little extra on things like this that can aid in buffering noob mistakes. Happy reefing!!
Because of these reasons, I used all live in my new 56g. No cycle measurable on api tests and all sand was shipped in temps close to freezing. Didn't rinse, or run any type of filter or skimmer. Just a powerhead and used sand bag over sb to keep from stirring up while filling tank. Was crystal clear in two days.
Just wanted to add since things change and biased people don't keep up with information on the other side. This whole debate needs to start with current information not past experiences. Look at current live sand prices at foster's which they ship free under standard 50 dollar minimum as dry goods. Look at dated bags. Breathable plastic that keeps sand live but has minimal moisture. And finally, ocean direct by carib sea in it's patented packing is supposed to preserve 1000 times the life of a sealed package with water. Also, if kept cool, this is no different than pods or phyto or anything else we keep alive in the fridge.
So many things in this hobby follow this pattern. Because an argument was accurate in the past, people tend to assume nothing has changed, so their arguments are still valid. Then the majority join in and people don't argue when they know better because people set in their ways rarely listen to reason and logic if it conflicts with their beliefs.
I took it a bit personal when someone said noobs are wasting money buying live sand and dry rock as a current trend. But this statement proves in itself that no research was done. I may be a noob, but I do very thorough research before making any decisions. Being a noob works to my advantage because I am able to research and compare products and ideas with zero bias. This keeps me from getting confused by outdated information that biased people try to preach with.
Sk8r, I love reading your threads and stickies. You offer great information on useful subjects explained clearly and thoroughly. That's why I took the noob trend comment so personally. I hope this thread doesn't turn to a sticky. I think it is truly bad outdated information with some important and helpful facts mixed in like the 1lb per gallon rule being for dry sand. Really though, even that is outdated. How much sand you need is decided by length and width not gallons. Also need to factor in rock scaping plans. The best way to calculate is using formulas from the manufacturer since different sands have different densities. Also, note that manufacturer's no longer recommend weight per gallon because of the reasons I mentioned.
Hopefully you don't mind that I called you out, but feel it is important. Simply, because myself and many others have a ton of faith in everything you say and post. Specially in the case of noobs, live sand is a very good idea. As all the experts know, it can be chaos in the beginning. Noobs should be wise enough to spend a little extra on things like this that can aid in buffering noob mistakes. Happy reefing!!
twistedfinn967
Member
Well put, dthorn. You make some good points. Thank you.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Bagged "live sand" does not speed up any process significantly and really LIVE liverock is the backbone of a successful reef. Biodiversity is in- sterility is out. This hasn't changed.
You only have to peer into a reef aquarium that was put together with real LIVE liverock and one that was put together with dry rock to come to your own "research" conclusions.
It's bad to take any comment on this board personally, but being a "noob" isn't a bad thing. Stop being so defensive. I used to be a "noob" too!
To sum up: it's my (experienced) opinion that REALLY LIVE LIVEROCK is the backbone of a successful reef aquarium and paying for bagged "live sand" is a waste of money.
It's good to have other opinions! Proof is in the results.
Besides my (then relatively unknown in the hobby) Stichodactyla tapetum "mini carpets" here are some of the hitch-hikers I originally got on my REAL LIVE LIVEROCK 19 years ago
If you choose dry rock you're really missing out on a large part of what makes reefkeeping so fascinating.
This goes all the way back to Lee Chin Eng, Grasshoppers. Liverock was the key to those early reef aquariums.
Dry rock before it promoted sterility.
You only have to peer into a reef aquarium that was put together with real LIVE liverock and one that was put together with dry rock to come to your own "research" conclusions.
It's bad to take any comment on this board personally, but being a "noob" isn't a bad thing. Stop being so defensive. I used to be a "noob" too!
To sum up: it's my (experienced) opinion that REALLY LIVE LIVEROCK is the backbone of a successful reef aquarium and paying for bagged "live sand" is a waste of money.
It's good to have other opinions! Proof is in the results.
Besides my (then relatively unknown in the hobby) Stichodactyla tapetum "mini carpets" here are some of the hitch-hikers I originally got on my REAL LIVE LIVEROCK 19 years ago
Ophiactis algicola are miniature "reef janitor" stars. I have hundreds (thousands?) of them in my system. Many people at the recent garage sale event got several of these along with the frags they got from me.
If you choose dry rock you're really missing out on a large part of what makes reefkeeping so fascinating.
This goes all the way back to Lee Chin Eng, Grasshoppers. Liverock was the key to those early reef aquariums.
Dry rock before it promoted sterility.
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Help me and probably us all to understand what qualifies as "REALLY LIVE ROCK", not trying to be funny just wondering what you would think would be in our best interest to look for in selecting rock. thanks in advance
I hate when noobs are offered choices that aren't choices. And this post is based on a shopping trip this week, for my own tank, current supply: I had a choice: crushed coral or two types of very watery sand at exorbitant prices. Any noob who shops there and has no better advice will, of course, buy it, and get, pardon me, less than what he should have had.
CaribSea is a good brand, and sells quality stuff in general. Their dating and bagging is a very Good Idea. I'm sure they're doing it because of the competition, and because live sand sounds more useful than sand.
Now, all that said, live sand is still a waste. Your rock is enough. And CaribSea sells very nice basic dry sand in several grades.
CaribSea is a good brand, and sells quality stuff in general. Their dating and bagging is a very Good Idea. I'm sure they're doing it because of the competition, and because live sand sounds more useful than sand.
Now, all that said, live sand is still a waste. Your rock is enough. And CaribSea sells very nice basic dry sand in several grades.
For really live rock I would look for: evidence of coralline algae (pink), (but not of green: avoid that); evidence of sponges, worms, and a lot of holes. That rock should be crusty, colorful, and look like swiss cheese. You pay more. But you get more, in general. Here's where the internet is iffy: ask around about the rock, get recommendations of companies, because you're buying a pig in a poke: some companies will show you beautiful rock, and what you get turns out to be brown stuff that's got bacteria, but little else. Also watch your origins: Caribbean rock may have bristleworms, good guys, and from it you MIGHT, remote chance, see a variety of caterpillarlike worm called a fireworm---which you don't want; Pacific rock has bristleworms, but I've never heard of a verified fireworm from the Pacific. I don't know which region produces mantis shrimp, but that's another watch-it. In general, best of all worlds if you can go and pick it out yourself; but if you want good rock, pick a good company with a good rep. Likewise, if you know 6 months ahead of time you're going to need some few pieces and have a friend in the hobby, get plain limestone holey rock and have him store the pieces in his sump, granted he has room. You'll get most every type of critter in his sump.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
good question
The best real live liverock (actually dead coral skeletons) will be CURED lightweight and porous encrusted with corallines and a variety of other plants and invertebrates. (See the yellow sponge in my picture above? Nice! If the rock is uncured you'll need to cure it which is beyond the scope of my reply here.) Real live liverock also carries nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria as well as heterotrophic bacteria and other (oh so important!) microorganisms.
I would consider real liverock as a key to my succes with reef aquariums.
Since biodiversity is my (personal) goal, I use rock from as many different locales as possible: Florida, Indonesia, Marshall Islands, Fiji, Tonga, etc.
Branch rock is nice but dense. Larger rock is better- don't break it all down!
I've put together reef aquariums with dry rock as well as cinderblocks.
These pale in comparison to real lively LR systems... so if you want to call me biased I will wear the tag proudly.
I don't sell dry rock or live rock.
I'm not going to make any specific vendor recommendations.
It is my opinion that the quality and type of rock (along with the way the rock is stacked and water flows around it) will have a major impact on the success of each reef aquarium. I've seen it firsthand and this hasn't changed.
I will continue to recommend a reefkeeper purchases the best quality liverock you can find- even if you can only afford one piece at a time.
I could say this exact thing about a bag of well rinsed dead sand minus the part where it turns in to milk and acts like fine sand paper on your power head impellers.
I am sure good live sand will help a little with cycling a tank but the key word is little and the cons are many. You had your tank turn into a mess for 2 days for something a $5 bottle or a few pieces of any quality liverock could have done better. A few pieces of very good LR would have done an amazing job at introducing a wide variety of bacteria and other organisms. Most live sand will introduce dormant nitrifying bacteria cultures that are usually sold to waste-water plants and not much more.
LS isn't collected at some reef somewhere, it is dug up in the same place that does the dead variety and then spritzed a little. I know some of it comes from Alberta, Canada thousands of miles from any ocean. Even if you could get LS from a beach on Tahiti, collected by hula girls under palm trees in the moonlight, they still have to chuck it in a plastic bag and ship it across the planet so don't expect miracles.
I wasn't being that defensive. Just saw a thread with a bunch of unexplained rants against live sand and felt the need to explain the other side for people interested in seeing the other side of the argument based on factual information. In my case I already have a mature reef full of goodies and a bunch of bad nems yet to be identified by science. Lots of sponges of different colors, micro feather dusters, coralline, bristle worms and mircro worms, all kinds of different types of pods, and lots of small unknown clam like creatures of different types.
I like the idea of starting dry and adding select creatures harvested from mature tank. Still don't think one piece of lr can compete with good live sand for cycling a tank. And as far as bottled bacteria goes, usually the same folks saying live sand isn't live will tell you the same about bottled bacteria. Note that on both of these claims science and fact are never quoted. I also believe in bottled bacteria.
Live or dry is a decision each person should make for themselves and having opinions and information from both sides can help people decide. One strong argument for dry is leftovers are much easier to deal with. Happy reefing!!
I like the idea of starting dry and adding select creatures harvested from mature tank. Still don't think one piece of lr can compete with good live sand for cycling a tank. And as far as bottled bacteria goes, usually the same folks saying live sand isn't live will tell you the same about bottled bacteria. Note that on both of these claims science and fact are never quoted. I also believe in bottled bacteria.
Live or dry is a decision each person should make for themselves and having opinions and information from both sides can help people decide. One strong argument for dry is leftovers are much easier to deal with. Happy reefing!!
I agree with you with DT on both live sand and bottled bacteria. Again though, as I stated earlier, they are not all equal. Both of these products can be highly effective for those of us who want to avoid the pests that may come with live rock. Sure, live rock can be great but...........it can be a nightmare as well. For that mater regarding live sand.........some say its a waste because the sand will become live anyway.....which is true......however, in that same train of thought.......more than a couple of pieces of live rock would be a rather expensive waste.......because dead rock will become live anyway..... right?
As for bio diversity.......it would be a whole lot cheaper to hand pick a detrivore kit to add to dead rock than to pay 6-10 dollars a pound for "really live rock" + you never have to worry about calupera, bubble algae, aiptasia, mantis shrimp, or any other nuisances or pests that may come with that "really live rock".
As for bio diversity.......it would be a whole lot cheaper to hand pick a detrivore kit to add to dead rock than to pay 6-10 dollars a pound for "really live rock" + you never have to worry about calupera, bubble algae, aiptasia, mantis shrimp, or any other nuisances or pests that may come with that "really live rock".
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
you might not think so but I can assure you there's no comparison
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
cheaper or not, you are comparing apples with oranges. If you truly believe you will save money in the long run and won't have to deal with calupera, bubble algae, aiptasia, mantis shrimp, or any other nuisances or pests that come with real liverock than you should choose to use dry rock.
You will miss out on the true biodiversity that real liverock brings in and there's a good chance you'll have to deal with those "nuisance" things anyways- and it's possible you will have a more difficult time dealing with them because your aquarium lacks biodiversity!
I'm an SPS reefer. I try and keep things more controlled in my reef aquarium than most people. I've had plenty of opportunties to redo my reef aquarium with sterile dry rock and I never will.
As a matter of fact, if there was a way for me to possibly bring some more fresh cured high quality liverock into my system I'd do it in a minute.
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This started out as a sand thread.
FWIW I use CaribSea Special grade Seafloor (dry) in a half SSB/BB combination.
I've never seen bagged "live" sand contain the types of critters that enter a system's sandbed via real live liverock.
I can't even imagine how a delicate Terebellid might survive getting poured into a bag of sand much less get shipped around inside one.
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What factual information and what unexplained rants? It really sounds like you were being "that defensive" and still are. This was a discussion about live sand vs dry sand, not exactly an explosive topic and nothing to take personally. Use what ever you like, it is not going to have any major impact on your tank either way.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
x2
*however*
I can see how someone might make the assumption that the use of "live sand" makes up for NOT using live rock.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
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