wentreefgirl
New member
Wh do you mix your salts by the way?
Lost or losing all my SPS - still not sure why.
- Thread starter LobsterOfJustice
- Start date
Some corals benefit from higher levels of phosphate and nitrate others do not.Deepwater corals seem to need a littlemore since levels at depth in the ocean are 4 to five times higher there than they are at the surface.Acropora do not.Again with fish food and waste in this system there should be plenty of phospate and nitogen to go around for sps.
It's not about mixing the salt. It's about getting a salt that may be imbalance or catching a bad batch.If the damage appears to be chemical and you have ruled out most everything else out think about the chemiocal mix you put the most of in your tank. This is particulary worth doing since ther ahve been a number of similar crashes in tanks using one of the noted products.You may wan't ot search under Oceanic salt and see what you find.
It's not about mixing the salt. It's about getting a salt that may be imbalance or catching a bad batch.If the damage appears to be chemical and you have ruled out most everything else out think about the chemiocal mix you put the most of in your tank. This is particulary worth doing since ther ahve been a number of similar crashes in tanks using one of the noted products.You may wan't ot search under Oceanic salt and see what you find.
ycnibrc
STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF
I will check into that. The reason why I think too low of a phosphate level can cause some problem,I will give 3 examples
1)I read a lot of reefer have their sps rtn or stn right after they add or change the gfo or carbon. Why is that?because their new gfo and carbon strip more phosphate that the tank can produce
2)why does all new cycle tank can not keep sps?what is the main different between a new tank and a mature tank. Even though you can keep all parameter equal such as cal,alk,mag,strontium,light,temp,flow and all other trace element
mature tank has more phosphate in their system.
3)why do you hear feed more then your coral will get more color?because feed more add more phosphate to your tank.
Now I'm not saying that high phosphate is good but too low of a level can not be good either.
Most reefer are so worry about alk,cal,mag and others trace element but phosphate is a part of the equation.
I can make a perfect reef tank with all new water,perfect light,perfect flow,perfect temp,all trace element are up to par alk,cal,mag etc with zero phosphate do you think the coral can survive in this environment. I think not because this is what you have when you just start your reef tank cycle.
1)I read a lot of reefer have their sps rtn or stn right after they add or change the gfo or carbon. Why is that?because their new gfo and carbon strip more phosphate that the tank can produce
2)why does all new cycle tank can not keep sps?what is the main different between a new tank and a mature tank. Even though you can keep all parameter equal such as cal,alk,mag,strontium,light,temp,flow and all other trace element
mature tank has more phosphate in their system.
3)why do you hear feed more then your coral will get more color?because feed more add more phosphate to your tank.
Now I'm not saying that high phosphate is good but too low of a level can not be good either.
Most reefer are so worry about alk,cal,mag and others trace element but phosphate is a part of the equation.
I can make a perfect reef tank with all new water,perfect light,perfect flow,perfect temp,all trace element are up to par alk,cal,mag etc with zero phosphate do you think the coral can survive in this environment. I think not because this is what you have when you just start your reef tank cycle.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I somewhat am suspicious of the salt mix as well. However, I have been mixing the two for a few years. I mix them to achieve optimal Ca/alk levels. the only reason I am suspicious is because it is something I am doing differently than most others. I have never had great growth, and my system has never been quite as successful as I would like.
Also, as far as the tank being too clean, the only problem with that theory is that I am getting a algae film building up on the glass after 2 or 3 days, I would suspect it would take a little longer to form if they tank was truly that low nutrient.
Also, as far as the tank being too clean, the only problem with that theory is that I am getting a algae film building up on the glass after 2 or 3 days, I would suspect it would take a little longer to form if they tank was truly that low nutrient.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
Yeah same deal. Shallow sandbed. The old sandbed was a little deeper, maybe 1/2"-3/4" deep.
I can make a perfect reef tank with all new water,perfect light,perfect flow,perfect temp,all trace element are up to par alk,cal,mag etc with zero phosphate
No you can't. Phosphate is in all living things in organic and inorganic forms. So unless your tank is full of di water without salt mix and is bare glass with nothing else in it ,it will have phosphate. Low phosphate is simply not a concern in captive reef keeping. This is particularly so in this case.Natural reefs have phosphate levels as low as 0.005ppm. Phosphate is only limiting on algae when it falls below 0.03. Excess phosphate can on the other hand inhibit calcification in corals and coraline leading to weakening of the specimen.
As for feeding coral they get lot's of things other than phosphate from feeding.
Gfo can put iron in the water and despite mfg claims it may leech back phosphate.These are more likely causes for problems.
As for a newly cycled tank having less phosphate than a mature one I don't know where you got that and you left out stability, amonia nitrate nitrite and lots of other things.
I do not mean to offend you but I don't think chasing a low phosphate theory will help this situation.
I also suggest you take a look at the article in The Reef Chemistry Forum by Randy Holmes Farley on phosphate. Thakyou for the discusion.
No you can't. Phosphate is in all living things in organic and inorganic forms. So unless your tank is full of di water without salt mix and is bare glass with nothing else in it ,it will have phosphate. Low phosphate is simply not a concern in captive reef keeping. This is particularly so in this case.Natural reefs have phosphate levels as low as 0.005ppm. Phosphate is only limiting on algae when it falls below 0.03. Excess phosphate can on the other hand inhibit calcification in corals and coraline leading to weakening of the specimen.
As for feeding coral they get lot's of things other than phosphate from feeding.
Gfo can put iron in the water and despite mfg claims it may leech back phosphate.These are more likely causes for problems.
As for a newly cycled tank having less phosphate than a mature one I don't know where you got that and you left out stability, amonia nitrate nitrite and lots of other things.
I do not mean to offend you but I don't think chasing a low phosphate theory will help this situation.
I also suggest you take a look at the article in The Reef Chemistry Forum by Randy Holmes Farley on phosphate. Thakyou for the discusion.
Lobster, A few thoughts for you to consider:
Check your salt mix for nitrate since yours have escalated.
Check your ph.Excess Co2 from your calcium reactor,perhaps? I run mine 24/7 but also dose limewater.
By the way I love your part of the country. My wife is from NC and we have a place in Kitty Hawk on the Outerbanks.
Check your salt mix for nitrate since yours have escalated.
Check your ph.Excess Co2 from your calcium reactor,perhaps? I run mine 24/7 but also dose limewater.
By the way I love your part of the country. My wife is from NC and we have a place in Kitty Hawk on the Outerbanks.
ycnibrc
STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF
Hi tom
I'm not here to make trouble. All I did is observe all the thread regarding crash and I see some common thing between them. It just a theory and I never make a statement that this is the cause. I'm chasing this theory because none of others thought about it. Everybody always blame on alk,cal,mag,flow or others reason. But the fact is all corals live by their zoothanzalea and zoothanzalae need some phosphate to reproduce. I don't make this part up I can send you the link from the study of coral bleaching in the great barrier reef. But anyway I just want to help nothing more.
This will be my last post regarding this issue.
I'm not here to make trouble. All I did is observe all the thread regarding crash and I see some common thing between them. It just a theory and I never make a statement that this is the cause. I'm chasing this theory because none of others thought about it. Everybody always blame on alk,cal,mag,flow or others reason. But the fact is all corals live by their zoothanzalea and zoothanzalae need some phosphate to reproduce. I don't make this part up I can send you the link from the study of coral bleaching in the great barrier reef. But anyway I just want to help nothing more.
This will be my last post regarding this issue.
dascharisma
New member
I had the same issue with a previous tank of mine. The tank really was too clean(whatever exactly that means). The corals looked very light (and to me quite nice) but the glass always got a thin film of algae within 2 days. If I had never changed the way I maintained the tank, I would never have realized that the tank was truly too clean. For a long time I simply assumed that the algae on the glass meant there was no need to increase my nutrient import. Then one day I just decided to change the way I did things. I increased the nutrient import and a few months later everything looked healthier. Corals that used to appear to have very thin tissue, looked more robust. The surprising thing is that the algae on the glass didn't grow any faster. If anything it seemed to grow slower, and it looked much darker and healthier.
I am not even going to speculate that this issue has any bearing on your current tank situation. I just want to share my observations concerning "too clean" and "fast forming algae film".
Brad
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I dont usually fuss about pH, but I did check it a few days ago (when I was matching water for the water change) and it was 7.9. However, its not from the CaRx for two reasons: 1) dual chamber CaRx absorbs most remaining CO2 and 2) the new water change water, and the frag tank (which had been separated from the main tank a few days prior) all read 7.9. I know it is because we usually keep the house sealed up tight to keep the AC on. I'm in a first floor apartment and dont want to sleep with the windows open. Not that it would do much good anyway, its usually warmer outside than inside. So its kind of a double edged sword... the tank needs the AC to stay cool, but keeping everything closed up tight raises CO2 concentrations and lowers tank pH. I know limewater is an option but I hate it. I'd rather not dose it if at all possible. Does anyone know how effective houseplants would be at removing excess CO2?
Ycnibrc,
Dont let anyone scare you away. We are having good discussion here, its alright is everyone voices their opinions and backs themselves up. Sometimes things get a little heated, agree to disagree and move on.
Overall, this tank is much cleaner than the last one. There is less rockwork, which leads to better flow, which leads to more waste removal. Other than the film on the glass there hasnt been any algae in the system. I also have been feeding less, which could be a reason for a cleaner tank (perhaps too clean), and the angelfish nipping.
Ycnibrc,
Dont let anyone scare you away. We are having good discussion here, its alright is everyone voices their opinions and backs themselves up. Sometimes things get a little heated, agree to disagree and move on.
Overall, this tank is much cleaner than the last one. There is less rockwork, which leads to better flow, which leads to more waste removal. Other than the film on the glass there hasnt been any algae in the system. I also have been feeding less, which could be a reason for a cleaner tank (perhaps too clean), and the angelfish nipping.
Hello Anthony,
Lobster is right . It is a good discussion.I would also like to read the link. I do,however, respectfully,disagree with your position and don't see it as relaevant to the problem presented on this thread. Everybody can learn from debate,myself included.
Lobster is right . It is a good discussion.I would also like to read the link. I do,however, respectfully,disagree with your position and don't see it as relaevant to the problem presented on this thread. Everybody can learn from debate,myself included.
dreaminmel
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11062997#post11062997 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
Green slimer, mostly receeding from the tips but has bare patches throughout:
A few frags missing random tip/base/corallite tissue
How quickly did those skeletons turn green... we may need to be discussing high phosphate levels instead of low. I put no faith in test kits when it comes to phosphate as it will tell you 0 even if it IS there if it's using it fast enough... I had some similar issues with sps in the past and found it was high phosphates. Their skeletons were turning green within days of the dieoff of tissue and the corals' deaths were prolonged. Not RTN.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
ycnibrc
STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF
I'm not going to hide any of these information from anyone since all I want is to find out what cause these crash.
here is some article from Eric Borneman regarding nutrient
The best solution to a severe bleaching event, beyond removing the stressors that caused the bleaching in the first place, is to provide enough nutrients to sustain the coral and to repopulate zooxanthellae, as well as providing them in a form that requires the least amount of energy to obtain and use. The best answer for all of these requirements is to make sure that there is a good supply of dissolved nitrogen in the water column. A high nitrogen level will probably not be beneficial once a bleached coral recovers, but it can be helpful in the recovery process. Bingman correctly notes that many aquariums are already many times higher than reefs in usable forms of nitrogen (pers. comm.). In such cases, increasing the usable forms of nitrogen (nitrate and ammonium) will probably not matter. However, many aquarists now keep aquariums where nitrogen levels approach or are below average reef water levels, and in such cases ammonium or nitrate can be fuel for zooxanthellae reproduction. For further information on the role of nitrogen in zooxanthellae reproduction, see Marubini and Davies (1996), Hoegh-Guldberg (1994), Hoegh-Guldberg and Smith (1989), and Mueller-Parker et al. (1994).
here is the link to the mass bleach coral event
http://www.fisherycrisis.com/coral2.html
After I read this article and compare to what we have done lately regarding reef keeping it does make some sense into some of the tank crash lately.
But still I have no proof so I can not say this is the answer.
here is some article from Eric Borneman regarding nutrient
The best solution to a severe bleaching event, beyond removing the stressors that caused the bleaching in the first place, is to provide enough nutrients to sustain the coral and to repopulate zooxanthellae, as well as providing them in a form that requires the least amount of energy to obtain and use. The best answer for all of these requirements is to make sure that there is a good supply of dissolved nitrogen in the water column. A high nitrogen level will probably not be beneficial once a bleached coral recovers, but it can be helpful in the recovery process. Bingman correctly notes that many aquariums are already many times higher than reefs in usable forms of nitrogen (pers. comm.). In such cases, increasing the usable forms of nitrogen (nitrate and ammonium) will probably not matter. However, many aquarists now keep aquariums where nitrogen levels approach or are below average reef water levels, and in such cases ammonium or nitrate can be fuel for zooxanthellae reproduction. For further information on the role of nitrogen in zooxanthellae reproduction, see Marubini and Davies (1996), Hoegh-Guldberg (1994), Hoegh-Guldberg and Smith (1989), and Mueller-Parker et al. (1994).
here is the link to the mass bleach coral event
http://www.fisherycrisis.com/coral2.html
After I read this article and compare to what we have done lately regarding reef keeping it does make some sense into some of the tank crash lately.
But still I have no proof so I can not say this is the answer.
dreaminmel
New member
Lobster,
Did your sps lose color before the tissue died or did the tissue just die w/ no color change?
*It looks from your photos that the sps turn an almost dark brown before tissue death. The only time I experienced this type of death was in my old 72 gallon when I first started w/ sps. That was determined to be death via high nitrate. The few sps that survived that episode took a few months to recover and regain color. There were some that never could recover...
Good luck with the survivors. Did you end up getting more sps?
Did your sps lose color before the tissue died or did the tissue just die w/ no color change?
*It looks from your photos that the sps turn an almost dark brown before tissue death. The only time I experienced this type of death was in my old 72 gallon when I first started w/ sps. That was determined to be death via high nitrate. The few sps that survived that episode took a few months to recover and regain color. There were some that never could recover...
Good luck with the survivors. Did you end up getting more sps?
Last edited:
reefer1024
New member
I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I think you should double check all your test kits against another brand. Make sure your levels are really what you think they are. Somebody else on RC lost all his corals because his refractometer was giving a false reading and his SG was way higher/lower (I forget) than he thought it was.
Last edited:
ycnibrc
STAG HORN DOMINATE REEF
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11069885#post11069885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dreaminmel
How quickly did those skeletons turn green... we may need to be discussing high phosphate levels instead of low. I put no faith in test kits when it comes to phosphate as it will tell you 0 even if it IS there if it's using it fast enough... I had some similar issues with sps in the past and found it was high phosphates. Their skeletons were turning green within days of the dieoff of tissue and the corals' deaths were prolonged. Not RTN.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
if you look at these picture one thing I notice is the tissue are damage from all different part of the coral. That further more indicate that the coral is starving and the tissue is so weak it become damage. RTN almost start from the bottom up. STN start from the top down. Bleaching by light usually from the side with higer intensity,bug have bite mark but these picture the damage are all over.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
Regarding high phosphate... I know the salifert kit isnt great at reading it, but it has always registered 0, and I run GFO.
Some of the corals darkened before dying, but some didnt. Not sure if that could also be attributed to the move (about 12 total hrs in deli cups). Parts of the green slimer have darkened significantly, to almost purple with green polyps. They didnt necessarily darken before dying, but sometimes as they are slowly dying.
reefer1024, I am considering sending a water sample out to AWT.
I have not bought any more SPS at this point. Going to do a few more water changes, then maybe get a few new pieces in a few weeks.
Some of the corals darkened before dying, but some didnt. Not sure if that could also be attributed to the move (about 12 total hrs in deli cups). Parts of the green slimer have darkened significantly, to almost purple with green polyps. They didnt necessarily darken before dying, but sometimes as they are slowly dying.
reefer1024, I am considering sending a water sample out to AWT.
I have not bought any more SPS at this point. Going to do a few more water changes, then maybe get a few new pieces in a few weeks.
