Magnifica not inflating six months after powerhead incident

[jedimasterben]

Sorry for this post being long, I just wanted to document everything that I could as thoroughly as I could, along with photos.

So September 4th, 2014 I got a bigass H. magnifica. It was purchased from a Petco and looked like this in-store. It stuck the **** out of my hand when I touched it the first time, I had no clue that a nem could sting that strongly.

It immediately settled in and within around 20 minutes my clownfish had taken up residence. This photo is from November 15th, 2014.

This one from March 15th, 2015.

So July 18th, 2015, the nem, along with a lot of my surviving coral and rock, were in a holding tank after I dismantled my 80g tank and was building the stand and setting up my 40g system. That morning, the nem got fed up with being in the holding tank (despite being battered with flow and around 250 PAR, which it had LOVED before), and it went for a jog.

It made its way into the gyre that was in the holding tank, uncovered (big mistake), and I'm sure you know the rest. It was not a truly devastating chopping, more like an aggressive haircut, as the nem simply lost the ends of most of its tentacles.

She still did not look too horrible. This photo is from September 1st, 2015, twelve days after getting the 40g filled and all livestock moved into it.

September 21st, 2015 is the farther back that I can see the nem is starting deflate cycles.

September 29th, 2015

December 1st, 2015

December 13th, 2015

January 25th, 2015

Will continue in the next post, thank you.

 

[jedimasterben]

And now we come to today. I have not seen the nem fully inflated in a very long time. I can touch it without sticking at all, and sometimes frozen food doesn't even stick. The anemone looks like this 99% of the time, the last percentage being slightly more deflated. (the color is not quite correct in the photos, my camera was not cooperating with me)

I should be able to remove the nem with relative ease and put into holding for treatment with ciprofloxacin, and if that doesn't work, sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprin. In reading the treatment threads and others, it seems as though this is the correct course of action at this point, that the nem must be suffering from a bacterial infection from the haircut it got and it is progressively, but slowly, getting worse. I miss my big nem being big and beautiful


Any advice is greatly appreciated, thank you.

 

[OrionN]

What are you feeding your anemone? It is possible that you are feeding him bad food. Stick with human grade sea food that are preservative free. I have seen anemone being feed with not so fresh food get continuously sick.

Anemone, Magnifica in particular are very sensitive to pH changes. Adding kalk or Bicarb quickly can cause a lot of problem for them while not visibly bother corals or fish. How are you replace Ca and CO3. Once my kalk timer mal function and add kalk one continuosly instead of only at night. The tank was thriving but my Magnifica almost died after only 2 days.

The same goes with salinity changes and temperature. I guess that this is why they are "difficult" to care for. Stability of tank condition is very important for anemones.

The tank is new, water parameter is likely not stable. Looking at he algae in your tank, I think this is a problem. Other then Nitrogen cycle, a reef tank really go though at lease several type of cycles involve various trace nutrients before become stable. You can really see this by seeing various macro algae thrive at various state of cycles in the first year of a tank. Also the bloom and crash of various group of fauna animals.

Your anemone doe snot look like a typical infected anemone, but it is possible that he is quite weaken and may easily get infect now. Unless he is deflating daily in the afternoon, I would not take him out and treat him. Is you can get him to a more stable tank. If not, do a lot of water change with good water. He may (likely) improve if you can get your tank stable.

Best of luck and keep us update whatever you do.

 

[SNAKEMANVET]

+1 with Minh

 

[jedimasterben]

Thank you for your reply, Minh. My routine is basically the same in the 40 as it was in the 80 with mostly the same equipment - no water changes, lots of food input, good export via strong skimming, a big UV sterilizer, and fresh carbon and Purigen. The anemone did exceedingly well from the day I got it to the day it got its haircut.

I feed my tank mostly New Life Spectrum pellet foods, and once daily the reef gets a large portion of either LRS Reef Frenzy (when I have some) or a homemade blend of fresh seafood. I have a Coral Box D500 skimmer, use a few tablespoons of ROX 0.8 carbon, and 100mL of Purigen, along with a 55w UV sterilizer run at night to kill Ostreopsis dinoflagellates.

I do not have consumption of calcium or alkalinity (no stony corals or coralline), so I don't have to dose anything. Before I put in sand (which is now in the sump) I would sometimes measure alk and it will have dropped a bit, I think due to the nitrogen cycle not fully completing (fixing one atom of nitrate uses up one atom of carbonate, but when that nitrate is converted to nitrogen gas it releases that carbonate), and would use a small bit of baking soda to bring it back up. That was a few months ago, I have not had to do that since the sand got populated with nitrogen reducing bacteria.

I keep salinity within 1ppt and temperature stays at 78F. When the anemone was in my 80g, I did not control temperature and it would usually swing around 4-6 degrees daily, and the nem always was beautiful and inflated, it's like now that I have more control over it the nem doesn't like it as much :lol:

The rock used in the tank was mostly old - the only thing that was new was the tank itself and some rock that I've put in while trying to decide on the aquascape. I have been planning on buying some more Caribbean uncured rock to try and get some new bacterial cultures going in the tank like I have been doing every other year or so in the 80g, and that will live in the sump since I don't want to crowd the display

The algae is Bryopsis pennata so it's really not an indicator of a young tank, it's more that I am just really unlucky when it comes to pests. Dinoflagellates killed all my SPS and most of my LPS, an acan-eating worm decimated my colonies, ich, brooklynella, uronema, and now bryopsis. If it's not one thing, it is another, but a rabbitfish and time should be able to control this one


The anemone now always looks like the last four photos posted above, it does not inflate more than that anymore, its tentacles are not sticky, and it's mouth does the puffy thing. I do have cipro on the way, but I will follow your advice and not treat immediately unless after reading this message that you think it may be worth a shot. I really don't know of anything that I can change or do to make things more stable, as I try to be as hands off as possible and let things ride. Hell, a coral fell off a rock a couple of weeks ago and I just left it in place to see what would happen


Again, thank you, and apologies for a long reply, I just want to document my setup and routine as thoroughly as I can.

 

[D-Nak]

I completely agree with Minh. When I first saw the photo I assumed it ate something bad or something in the water is not to the nem's liking.

What do you put in your seafood blend? Frozen shrimp is oftentimes treated with STPP, and though I can't conclusively prove that nem's have an issue with it, I try to avoid it. My understanding is that STPP raises the pH of what it's added too. If a lot is used, when the nem ingests it, it could raise the pH to a point where it disturbs the nem.

This is a case where Cipro or another antibiotic probably won't help.

Did I read correctly that you don't do water changes? This can be a big issue with anemones. They can deplete the supplements available in salt water. For example, many people recommend providing nems with iodine, but since I can't accurately and easily test for it -- nor do I know what level is harmful to nems -- I choose to do water changes which naturally adds iodine and other elements back into the system. Vitamins and minerals can also be provided to the nem via the food it eats, but I like giving them clean water to allow them to get what they need.

My recommendation -- as Minh suggested -- is to do a lot of water changes and see what happens.

 

[jedimasterben]

I completely agree with Minh. When I first saw the photo I assumed it ate something bad or something in the water is not to the nem's liking.

What do you put in your seafood blend? Frozen shrimp is oftentimes treated with STPP, and though I can't conclusively prove that nem's have an issue with it, I try to avoid it. My understanding is that STPP raises the pH of what it's added too. If a lot is used, when the nem ingests it, it could raise the pH to a point where it disturbs the nem.

This is a case where Cipro or another antibiotic probably won't help.

Did I read correctly that you don't do water changes? This can be a big issue with anemones. They can deplete the supplements available in salt water. For example, many people recommend providing nems with iodine, but since I can't accurately and easily test for it -- nor do I know what level is harmful to nems -- I choose to do water changes which naturally adds iodine and other elements back into the system. Vitamins and minerals can also be provided to the nem via the food it eats, but I like giving them clean water to allow them to get what they need.

My recommendation -- as Minh suggested -- is to do a lot of water changes and see what happens.

This last time I used scallop, fresh table shrimp (removed the tails and shells), littleneck clams, oysters, and another type of bivalve that I do not remember the name of (I don't eat seafood myself, so most of that is all foreign to me lol). The shrimp from Publix was claimed to not be frozen, so as to whether it was treated with STPP will remain a mystery. I do thoroughly wash the food before chopping it up, I do not know if that would remove any, but that is part of my process.

I did zero water changes from many months before I got the anemone (September 2014) to the time I transferred everything from the holding tank to the 40g tank (early September 2015). The same water went into the holding tank as was in the 80, and I think the last time I did any kind of change in the 80 was in early 2014, and it would have been minor to adjust salinity in the tank. I would think that if an animal this large relied on some particular trace element that it would have run out of it during that year long period and started its decline then.

 

[OrionN]

I never have much luck with decrease water change. A life time ago when I was younger and less smart, I often not change water as often as I should and my animals always suffer for it.
I am sure that there are a lot of things that we added into our tank that does not get eliminate with skimming. Also there are a lot of vital micro nutrients that get used up. Water change will remove toxic accumulation of micro toxins not removed by skimmer, and replace micro nutrients.

Magnifca are very sensitive. I think if you continue your current course, he will not survive, then your corals will not do well either. There are a variety of service that you can send your water to be test. I bet that the result will be pretty screw up.

I would start to do large volume water change. This IMO, will get your anemone the best chance of recovery

 

[jedimasterben]

I never have much luck with decrease water change. A life time ago when I was younger and less smart, I often not change water as often as I should and my animals always suffer for it.
I am sure that there are a lot of things that we added into our tank that does not get eliminate with skimming. Also there are a lot of vital micro nutrients that get used up. Water change will remove toxic accumulation of micro toxins not removed by skimmer, and replace micro nutrients.

Magnifca are very sensitive. I think if you continue your current course, he will not survive, then your corals will not do well either. There are a variety of service that you can send your water to be test. I bet that the result will be pretty screw up.

I would start to do large volume water change. This IMO, will get your anemone the best chance of recovery

Unfortunately, if I do a water change, I will most likely lose all of my gorgonians and my soft corals will be smothered and likely not open for some time if they do not deteriorate too far. As I have said before, the system has not had a water change and the system before it did not, either, and the anemone lived in that same water for a year in what I've read to be optimum health - excellent color, extremely sticky tentacles, and long, flowing tentacles.

If there were any trace element that it could not sequester from its food, it would be unlikely that there would have been enough in the water column after a short period, yet alone after a full year, so by that thinking the anemone should have been showing these symptoms and perished long ago, but it has not.

 

[OrionN]

jedimasterben,
A aquarium with no water change, but keep on get feed and top off water, and skimming does not stay at steady state. Your aquarium at this time is different that what it was 1 year, or two years ago. Toxic stuff accumulate and trace element continue to be used up.
It is less habitable now than it was 1 year ago.

Unfortunately, if I do a water change, I will most likely lose all of my gorgonians and my soft corals will be smothered and likely not open for some time if they do not deteriorate too far

Why? This is very illogical. There are a lot of tank with thriving corals with frequent water change?
I think your logic is convoluted here.

If there were any trace element that it could not sequester from its food, it would be unlikely that there would have been enough in the water column after a short period, yet alone after a full year, so by that thinking the anemone should have been showing these symptoms and perished long ago, but it has not.

Extremely simple minded
Have you heard of scurvy? Sailor from long ago does not have vitamin C in their diet, they don't do well but dis not died.
Rickets: People lack in vitamin D do not die outright but with brittle bones and frequent fractures
Iron deficiency cause people to be very anemic and not do well but they live.
On on and on and on. The deficiency take years to develop and does not kill people out right but set them up for getting kill by accident, infection what have you.


You ask what may be wrong with your anemone, I replied from what I know.
Please keep us update. Best of luck to your reef tank.

 

[D-Nak]

LOL. It sounds like you think a water change will do more harm than good. If something dies from a water change, then something is wrong with your tank.

If you're worried about your gorgs or softies being exposed to air or in low water, then do a continuous water change, where the water is removed at the rate as the new water enters.

I agree with Minh that it might be an accumulation of some toxin. It may have reached the tipping point where it's simply too much for the nem with withstand for too long of a time. There's that saying... "the solution to pollution is dilution."

Again, do a water change and see what happens. At least if it stays the same, we can rule out water quality as a potential culprit. A water change may also help the nem to flush out toxins from bad food, if that was the problem, similar to how taking a shower oftentimes makes people feel better when they're feeling down for whatever reason.

 

[hotelbravo]

I also agree that you need to start doing water changes and I also do not understand the logic in the comment about your gorgonians.. I firmly believe it will help you and your anemone

 

[akida]

The only way to find out if the water change will help, most probable, is to get one done and see how the nem responds. If it looks even a little better, proceed with water changes.

 

[akida]

The only way to find out if the water change will help is to get one done and see how the nem responds. If it looks even a little better, proceed with water changes.

 

[Dkuhlmann]

I'd say that more than 95% of reefers do wc's on a regular basis, so the logic behind a wc hurting anything in your tank is unfounded

 

[jedimasterben]

jedimasterben,
A aquarium with no water change, but keep on get feed and top off water, and skimming does not stay at steady state. Your aquarium at this time is different that what it was 1 year, or two years ago. Toxic stuff accumulate and trace element continue to be used up.
It is less habitable now than it was 1 year ago.

Why? This is very illogical. There are a lot of tank with thriving corals with frequent water change?
I think your logic is convoluted here.

Extremely simple minded
Have you heard of scurvy? Sailor from long ago does not have vitamin C in their diet, they don't do well but dis not died.
Rickets: People lack in vitamin D do not die outright but with brittle bones and frequent fractures
Iron deficiency cause people to be very anemic and not do well but they live.
On on and on and on. The deficiency take years to develop and does not kill people out right but set them up for getting kill by accident, infection what have you.

You ask what may be wrong with your anemone, I replied from what I know.
Please keep us update. Best of luck to your reef tank.

My aplogies, I guess I did only mention this in passing and it is easy to overlook.

That is an Ostreopsis sp. dinoflagellate, one of the most toxic there is, producing palytoxin among a short list of others. They form a thick mat which smothers corals and can kill whatever it touches. This strain seems to preferentially stick to gorgonians in particular, but when they are in full bloom, anything is fair game. Any fish that eats some if will most likely die. Any snail or crab that eats it will most likely die.

Water changes fuel them (no one knows why at this point), and this particular strain goes into overdrive like in the photos above. From that bloom alone I lost almost 1/4 of the corals that were in my already sparse 80. Looking back through an old thread, I did a five gallon change to adjust salinity a couple of days before those photos were taken. That is why I am unable to do these large water changes, and is why I did not do water changes in the 80 gallon tank. There is no 'cure' for them, there is no beating them, there is no getting rid of them, there is only mild control (using strong UV or large doses of hydrogen peroxide) and dealing with losses as they come.

If the anemone has suddenly decided that it can no longer receive some kind of trace element from food and requires it from the water column, then this will unfortunately be the end of its tale. I love this anemone, but the tank is not dedicated to only it.

The only way I could see doing a water change with less potential for a large-scale dieoff would be to do the change and then do a 7-14 day blackout, which will force the dinoflagellates into a pelagic state, some to be destroyed by the UV sterilizer, and some to survive into encystment. The anemone has gone through several week-long blackouts in the 80 and in the holding tank without missing a beat, but with it in a more compromised state, I am unsure how it would handle it now. My next move needs to be carefully assessed if I do not want to lose the anemone or any other livestock, and that is why I am asking these questions. This is not a 'typical' situation by any means, and I do appreciate the advice given already. If I ask questions, I am trying to learn the whys and hows.

Thank you.

 

[Dkuhlmann]

So essentially you're held captive by an algae in your tank? Why not setup a quarantine tank to put your critters in and then nuke the bastards and start over with your DT.

 

[jedimasterben]

So essentially you're held captive by an algae in your tank? Why not setup a quarantine tank to put your critters in and then nuke the bastards and start over with your DT.

It's not actually possible, unfortunately. The zooxanthellae in our corals are dinoflagellates, as well, and the toxic species are similar enough that corals and anemones actually harbor them inside them since they are constantly trying to obtain new zoox. Whenever any coral or nem is moved into a different system, it takes them along for the ride.

 

[hotelbravo]

If the only thing you can do is a black out in order to do water changes then thats the price you have to pay imo.

 

[Winwood]

I have had luck with hydrogen peroxide dosing to get rid of dinos. My tank was covered with them and it took out a few corals but with daily H2O2 dosing they went away in about 10 days. My current magnifica was sensitive to it though and would retract almost instantly once the H2O2 hit the water. I did 5 mls a day on a 90 gallon system.