Mindstream Aquarium Monitoring System

[Electrobes]

rb has a new post about answering the top 10 questions about mindstream. The questions were ok but I don't think "How does mindstream work" is a top question, especially since they just answered it using language from the kickstarter...

I wish they would have talked more about alkalinity/calcium testing and asked what happened to the other 4 parameters that were mentioned would be tested (including nitrate)

I do agree the questions were a bit lame, but it did answer a couple questions we all had like how they measure Alkalinity. They only use pH and Carbon Dioxide.

 

[805reef]

I do agree the questions were a bit lame, but it did answer a couple questions we all had like how they measure Alkalinity. They only use pH and Carbon Dioxide.

That was answered in the kickstarter.

Quote from the kickstarter: " We use our pH and CO2 measurements to accurately calculate alkalinity"

 

[Electrobes]

That was answered in the kickstarter.

Quote from the kickstarter: " We use our pH and CO2 measurements to accurately calculate alkalinity"

Missed that, thanks!

 

[acesq]

I'm very impressed with what Jake Adams reported today. This is no fly by night company, they seem to have put alot of thought into this product. Very excited to get one.

 

[BuzzPion]

Luddites crack me up. Seriously, this could be said about every single technical advance in history, from the toilet to the internal combustion engine to the internet.



The internet has sites I don't care about, some of it is inaccurate, hence causing concerns, is more expensive than not having internet, and definitely not necessary. Heck, current testing kits have accuracy concerns! And sometimes, it really is just about convenience. A hole in the ground in an outhouse is cheaper than a toilet, but I'll take indoor plumbing any day of the week.



I'm a data guy. My bike computer can track my HR, power output, speed, altitude, and pedal RPMs and then parse it in myriad ways. Is all that necessary to ride a bike? Of course not, but it's fun for those of us who like to discover the correlations between effort and results, and find more efficient ways to make gains.

Same thing here. It's not about chasing numbers, but about getting a better understanding of how parameters are interrelated with themselves, and how various changes affect them. It would provide a much deeper understanding of our water chemistry and its effect on our livestock.

Is it necessary? Some people argue protein skimmers aren't necessary. Some argue that regular testing of water parameters isn't necessary. But for those of us who want a deeper understanding of what is going on in our tanks, this would be a godsend.

The price of the disks has to come down, or their duration has move beyond one month. Those are real concerns, but I really do love the whole "bah hambug technology!" thing that so many have. No one is forcing you to buy it or connect anything to the internet or surrender your horse and buggy. The Amish lead rich, rewarding lives despite their rejection of modernity. Your fish and coral will do fine without this gadget.

But if people want more information, that is also not a bad thing.

Nice personal attacks. Internet? Toilets? Whatever. Go ahead and spend your thousand + dollars on this gadget. Have fun with that yearly subscription too.

What is it they say about fools and money?

 

[Ron Reefman]

I'm very impressed with what Jake Adams reported today. This is no fly by night company, they seem to have put alot of thought into this product. Very excited to get one.

They have been working on this product for 2 years or more and it still sounds too expensive and full of loop holes.

Oh, and you buy one and the company goes belly up in 6 or 12 months. Then where are you? Back to basics and probably poorer.

 

[soulpatch]

I'd like to know how the unit will stand up to the saltwater environment long term. Wonder if it needs frequent cleaning to retain accuracy (bet it does).

They touched on this in the RB article in that the unit is pretty well sealed to nto allow light in, is made of a different grade plastic to help avoid growth, and each disk has a wiper on them just in case those other two items fail.

Seeing as one will be replacing the disk monthly it should be no issue to keep the unit clean otherwise.

 

[soulpatch]

Oh, and you buy one and the company goes belly up in 6 or 12 months. Then where are you? Back to basics and probably poorer.

This part is concerning for me. The unit itself does no calcs. It sends to the cloud where the data is read and calcs are done for you. If the company goes under then so does the site and the supply of reader disks.

Now we all have gotten in on new tech so this might be the next ecotech or such in terms of stable company but I am bothered by having to have so much reliance on a company for the product to work when the company is brand new and has had so many delays as is.

If they would license the cloud computing to apex or something then game on as that woudl alleviate a huge trouble area.

 

[805reef]

This part is concerning for me. The unit itself does no calcs. It sends to the cloud where the data is read and calcs are done for you. If the company goes under then so does the site and the supply of reader disks.

Now we all have gotten in on new tech so this might be the next ecotech or such in terms of stable company but I am bothered by having to have so much reliance on a company for the product to work when the company is brand new and has had so many delays as is.

If they would license the cloud computing to apex or something then game on as that woudl alleviate a huge trouble area.

As much as I do like the "cloud" and being able to control a lot of my home with my phone I don't like that the mindstream depends on it for functionality. What if I lost my internet connection for a few hours or worse a few days. All that data is lost forever. Maybe not that huge of a deal but still pretty sucky.

Also someone could get upset at them and ddos's their site and bam everyones mindstreams are offline and data is lost.

I really love the idea of the mindstream and am keeping my kickstarter pledge up but I really hope some good solid information comes out by or at MACNA or else I might end up backing out.

 

[soulpatch]

losing connection for a few hours/days is not really too concerning since we dont have constant numbers now and work out fine. Though your point about the site going down would be troublesome. The system requires the site to get the numbers so it going down either by crashing or the company going under would render these devices as expensive bricks.

I still dont get why these guys aren't going down the licensing route to get this out faster, reduce costs, and more importantly have a bigger name behind the product to quell worries from us hobbyists.

Lets be real if this was ecotech, red sea, or a few other companies we would not be raising many of the issues we all have now about longevity of the product. And those big boys would most likely be able to leverage their size to get costs down for the disks to alleviate the remainder of our concerns.

 

[805reef]

losing connection for a few hours/days is not really too concerning since we dont have constant numbers now and work out fine.

That's true, we are fine without them now. But once we start using it and get used to it and possibly don't have conventional test kits around it could be a hassle. Also if people get their wish where the mindstream and apex can talk to each other so that the apex can dose based on mindstream readings that could kill a system if the mindstream site is down or internet is lost for a few days.

I completely agree with you about if this were an established company we wouldn't have as many concerns, but it isn't. I do hope, like you said, that they start working with an established company to help out.

 

[acesq]

This looks like it could be the new frontier in parameter monitoring. Are there risks that may result in me losing some money? Absolutely. But to me, given where this thing appears to be (and subject to some confirmation at MACNA), I am willing to take those risks and hope that enough others do to allow this thing to play out.

 

[Electrobes]

I wish they specified if Beta Testers got a years worth of discs... Has anyone gotten confirmation on this? They haven't answered in the comments section on Kickstarter, nor Facebook.

 

[oldbones]

5-10 years from now, automated testing of all major aquarium parameters will be the norm, not the exception.

I'm willing to spend a few dollars more (heck, even gamble a little) to buy that technology now.

That being said, I agree that the price of the discs will need to come down. Folks may be willing to spend good money on the unit, especially if the know they can sell it for a small loss down the road. $500/year for supplies to run the thing? Not sustainable, IMHO.

 

[dailykos]

Nice personal attacks.

Your definition of "personal attacks" is suspect.

On a more substantive note, Randy Holmes-Farley says this over at Reef-2-Reef:

[O]ne can calculate alk from knowing salinity, pH, CO2, and temperature. Hopefully they use all of them and not just CO2 and pH.

From the RB FAQ:

Salinity is measured from conductivity, and alkalinity is calculated from the measurement of carbon dioxide and pH.

So, uh, darn. Presumably Mindstream is confident they can get proper Alk readings by just pH and CO2, and that confidence is being confirmed by their testing. But they already have temp, so would've been nice to have the complete formula, per Randy.

(And to be clear, I'm deferring to Randy's expertise. This stuff is not my bailiwick.)

 

[805reef]

I wish they specified if Beta Testers got a years worth of discs... Has anyone gotten confirmation on this? They haven't answered in the comments section on Kickstarter, nor Facebook.

I thought it was pretty clear on the KS page that the beta tester pledge only includes 3 months of discs... They are allowing you the option to pay extra to be a beta tester/get the unit in October.

 

[ca1ore]

Presumably Mindstream is confident they can get proper Alk readings by just pH and CO2, and that confidence is being confirmed by their testing. But they already have temp, so would've been nice to have the complete formula, per Randy.

(And to be clear, I'm deferring to Randy's expertise. This stuff is not my bailiwick.)

Not mine either, but in the old days when I kept FW plant tanks it was commonplace to infer carbonate hardness based on pH and CO2 levels. I guess no reason why this wouldn't work on salt water as well. How are they testing for pH I wonder? Chemically, or with a probe? If the latter, means another reason to make sure the pH probe is calibrated frequently.

 

[805reef]

Not mine either, but in the old days when I kept FW plant tanks it was commonplace to infer carbonate hardness based on pH and CO2 levels. I guess no reason why this wouldn't work on salt water as well. How are they testing for pH I wonder? Chemically, or with a probe? If the latter, means another reason to make sure the pH probe is calibrated frequently.

ph is testing using the disc that everything else is tested on. They actually talk about it a lot on the kickstarter page. ph is about the only thing they have actually talked about. they compare their ph results to an award winning $12,000 ph probe results.

from the page:
"As you may know, pH is critical to maintaining reef tank stability. We use our pH and CO2 measurements to accurately calculate alkalinity (arguably one of the most important parameters). In order to set the bar as high as possible, we have been testing the MindStream monitor against a $12,500 marine grade instrument from Sunburst Sensors called the Sunburst AFT-pH. It's used in very high precision oceanographic research and represents the “gold standard” in measuring pH. In fact, Sunburst Sensors was recently named as the winner of the $2 million global Wendy Schmidt Ocean Health XPRIZE competition for the most accurate and precise pH sensors in measuring ocean chemistry out of 24 competing teams!"

 

[DaveMorris]

I am still very much on the fence about whether or not I want to jump on the $495 level of support. I like the idea, but with such a big jump in projected cost of the discs, I'm not sure I would be interested in it long term even if I'm saving a little money on the purchase by getting in early. Despite the RB propaganda article talking about what a great price point this thing is, I still think they need to drop the unit price and the disc price down considerably to get the kind of volume sales that would support the endeavor. I guess I'll just stay tuned at this point.

 

[tlc]

I am a bit concerned that they need a kickstarter program to help with funds. I have been watching this controller for awhile. I have invested in kickstarter programs before. most where great products that never got to the masses... seems like there is a bit of a gamble whether or not it can truly survive the market. lack of capital at this point is not a confidence builder