My chrysogasters are grandparents

[MarinaP]

These babies were 2 weeks old when Derecho hit Virginia in 2012. We lost power for 5 days and temperature was above 90F. We have a generator, but saving this batch was tricky. Anyway, they lived to produce offsprings of their own

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[Reefvette]

Lucky

 

[addictedreefer]

Incestuous? Not sure that is very responsible, as similar practices are a major contributing factor to the deformities we see in captive bred clowns.

 

[MarinaP]

Incestuous? Not sure that is very responsible, as similar practices are a major contributing factor to the deformities we see in captive bred clowns.

People cutting corners while raising fry is the major contributing factor to the deformities. Availability of wild caught chrysogasters is so limited, that i am willing to take my chances with this pair.

 

[deangelr]

People cutting corners while raising fry is the major contributing factor to the deformities.

I agree

 

[Reefvette]

Clowns

Clowns

Incestuous? Not sure that is very responsible, as similar practices are a major contributing factor to the deformities we see in captive bred clowns.

Do u own any designer clowns?

That's most likely the same thing a lot of times it's a parent paired with a baby.

 

[addictedreefer]

Do u own any designer clowns?

That's most likely the same thing a lot of times it's a parent paired with a baby.

Nope, and never will own any tank raised clown for that matter. Inbreeding and unnatural rearing makes for subpar fish IMO.

 

[Reefvette]

Well not owning tank raised clowns is pretty isn't helping either. Tank raised clowns can and are a great alternative to wild caught clowns which are overfished.

Not all breeders inbreed clowns it also highly possible that some wild clowns are inbred as well. Since studies have shown clowns use their sense of smell once they settle from larva to go back to their home area based on the smell of anemones or leaf litter.

What do u mean by unnatural rearing?

 

[OrionN]

Any animal we raised are inbreed, line breed....
The chicken and egg we eat, the cat and dog we raised, the horse we ride, the cow and pig we eat, the fish we raised....and on and on.
Domestication are inbreed
addictedreefer stand is very radical

 

[addictedreefer]

Any animal we raised are inbreed, line breed....
The chicken and egg we eat, the cat and dog we raised, the horse we ride, the cow and pig we eat, the fish we raised....and on and on.
Domestication are inbreed
addictedreefer stand is very radical

You may be correct about domesticated animals, but that is not what many strive for in a reef aquarium. We are trying to replicate natural environments and creatures and keep things looking and behaving as "wild" as possible. I for one find that the most fulfilling and I want my animals to look as natural as possible. I think of a reef tank as a nature preserve, not a petting zoo. At least that is my approach. To each his/her own.

 

[addictedreefer]

Well not owning tank raised clowns is pretty isn't helping either. Tank raised clowns can and are a great alternative to wild caught clowns which are overfished.

Not all breeders inbreed clowns it also highly possible that some wild clowns are inbred as well. Since studies have shown clowns use their sense of smell once they settle from larva to go back to their home area based on the smell of anemones or leaf litter.

What do u mean by unnatural rearing?

I don't think you can realistically say that the rate of inbreeding in the wild approaches that found in tank breeding. Regardless, that is besides the point, because here the OP deliberately bred members of the same brood.

By unnatural rearing, I mean that IMO there are just certain intangibles that cannot be replicated in aquariums, such as the diversity of food sources, water conditions, lack of artificial walls (think smushed heads), etc. In addition, the crucible of natural selection in the wild weeds out all but a small percentage of the most fit specimens, who then pass on their genes to the next generation. That is why, in my mind, there can never be a true substitute for the real deal. To the inbreeding point you raise above, even if isolated instances of inbreeding occur in the wild, inbred clowns are more likely to have defects and thus more likely to be eliminated by natural selection, thus restoring balance.

 

[elegance coral]

Congrats Marina!!!!!!!!:celeb3::celeb2::beer::celeb1:

Don't let the garbage in this thread bother you. You know there's always got to be that one. Those of us that understand, applaud what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

Peace
EC

 

[addictedreefer]

Congrats Marina!!!!!!!!:celeb3::celeb2::beer::celeb1:

Don't let the garbage in this thread bother you. You know there's always got to be that one. Those of us that understand, applaud what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

Peace
EC

Those of us that "understand" what exactly? That it is advisable to start a line of inbred fish? I get it that they are rare, but the responsible thing to do if you want to start a healthy line of captive raised fish is to patiently wait until another pair becomes available or at least a single specimen to add genetic diversity.

Also don't appreciate either myself or my opinion being referred to as garbage. That's quite immature.

 

[elegance coral]

People cutting corners while raising fry is the major contributing factor to the deformities. Availability of wild caught chrysogasters is so limited, that i am willing to take my chances with this pair.

Could not agree more. I purchased a very very young Picasso with a severe underbite. The poor thing was hideous! I put her in a clean system and fed her well. As she grew and matured, the deformity diminished. Now, as a spawning adult female, the deformity is almost unnoticeable. It would take a clownfish freak like some of us on here to really tell she's not perfect. If it were a genetic issue, a problem with inbreeding or selective breeding, a change in environment and/or diet could not have corrected the problem in this fish.

 

[MarinaP]

but the responsible thing to do if you want to start a healthy line of captive raised fish is to patiently wait until another pair becomes available or at least a single specimen to add genetic diversity.
.

Been there, done that. Every single captive bred chrysogaster swimming in the tanks across the US came from my wild caught pair. Now allow me to be a little adventurous.

 

[elegance coral]

Those of us that "understand" what exactly? That it is advisable to start a line of inbred fish? I get it that they are rare, but the responsible thing to do if you want to start a healthy line of captive raised fish is to patiently wait until another pair becomes available or at least a single specimen to add genetic diversity.

Also don't appreciate either myself or my opinion being referred to as garbage. That's quite immature.

I wasn't referring to you as garbage. If you took it that way, my apologies.

I was referring to the fact that someone would come on here, sharing their accomplishment with the breeding of a rare species in the hobby, and someone else would criticize them for their efforts. Someone that "understands" how all of this works would never do such a thing. I'm sure if you could come up with an affordable and healthy Chrysogaster to increase the gene pool, Marina would be glad to introduce it into her line of clowns. Until then, I don't think it's fair to criticize her for keeping a rare fish alive and healthy in the hobby.

Just my opinion man
Peace
EC

 

[addictedreefer]

I wasn't referring to you as garbage. If you took it that way, my apologies.

I was referring to the fact that someone would come on here, sharing their accomplishment with the breeding of a rare species in the hobby, and someone else would criticize them for their efforts. Someone that "understands" how all of this works would never do such a thing. I'm sure if you could come up with an affordable and healthy Chrysogaster to increase the gene pool, Marina would be glad to introduce it into her line of clowns. Until then, I don't think it's fair to criticize her for keeping a rare fish alive and healthy in the hobby.

Just my opinion man
Peace
EC

I see a pair available on iBluewater: http://ibluewater.com/clownfish.html. Are those also descendants of Marina's original pair?

I get it that they are pricey, but it is the best thing to do in the long run. With breeding, as in all other things in life, you get what you put into it. Starting with single line breeding will cause irreparable harm to the entire captive bred population unless genetic diversity is introduced. If additional wild caught specimens are not available, then IMO, the captive raised population should not be bred until such time as wild specimens (or at least captive specimens from a distant line) are available. If that never happens (which is highly unlikely), then so be it.

 

[Yuri Barros]

I found some evidences that Amphiprion chrysogaster is not restrict to Mauritius/Rodrigues/Reunion...............

I found a report from Musandam - Oman´s Sultanate.................from south of Lima Rocks...........

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Outdoors/9910/underwaterphoto.htm

This is the picture linked above.........from Musandam...........Oman.......(also in this link have nice pictures of Amphiprion sebae in this area).........Clark´s also occours..........

Mags and Merten´s.........Gaster favourites............

Clark´s like BBTs.........and Sebae likes Haddon´s............in Musandam area...........

For years I am intrigued with this Article...........that say Amphiprion chrysogaster occouring in Andaman & Nicobar Islands........

http://eprints.cmfri.org.in/2123/1/Rema_118-126.pdf


Golden Maroons........came from this region.........A&N (West Andaman Sea)...............

And maybe Amphiprion chrysogaster are founded in the same place............but the lack of precise ID make them "invisible" to the collectors.............

According the Article.............there is 14 anemonefish species in A&N Islands.......the biggest in the world...........

Amphiprion chrysogaster can be confused with Clark´s......Sebae........or Black Saddlebacks..........

Who knows............???

I don´t know exactly Golden Maroons came from.............but I think that they came from the same area where Amphiprion chrysogaster were reported in A&N..........

Once I thought that Amphiprion chrysogaster was endemic to Mauritius/Rodrigues/Reunion...............but now I have open my mind to these reports...........

Unfortunately I don´t have more information.........or pics.........

 

[elegance coral]

I see a pair available on iBluewater: http://ibluewater.com/clownfish.html. Are those also descendants of Marina's original pair?

I get it that they are pricey, but it is the best thing to do in the long run. With breeding, as in all other things in life, you get what you put into it. Starting with single line breeding will cause irreparable harm to the entire captive bred population unless genetic diversity is introduced. If additional wild caught specimens are not available, then IMO, the captive raised population should not be bred until such time as wild specimens (or at least captive specimens from a distant line) are available. If that never happens (which is highly unlikely), then so be it.

I understand, and genetic diversity is a great thing for building healthy populations. But, it is not a must for building healthy populations. Many island inhabitants can be traced back to one female, or at least a very small number of individuals. All of the species of Galapagos tortuous are likely descendants of one gravid female that somehow managed to survive the trip from the mainland, and produce healthy offspring. The same can be said for many island species. Even us humans likely migrated out of Africa in small family groups, with very little genetic diversity, then grew into the healthy populations we see today. Inbreeding can be very common among many species in the wild. Especially animals that live in family groups like, wolves, lions, and many primates.

 

[Rare Angels]

Congrats to you Marina!! Good to see you are still around!