Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
Both fish you named should have no problem with CP
My journey using Chloroquine Phosphate begins...
- Thread starter b0bab0ey
- Start date
Both fish you named should have no problem with CP
CP can kill! And pretty fast...
CP can kill! And pretty fast...
Be careful with dosing this. I had 4 fish with a minor case of ich. They were fine except for the scratching in the gills and occasional salt grains. They were in my tank for maybe 2 years with this condition on and off, but were fine, active, happy and ate very well. Eventually I saw more salt grains on my flame hawkfish, and decided I should probably take action so it didn't get any worse, and to improve their quality of life. The other fish seemed more resistant to it, but they did gill scratch occasionally.
I got them out of my display into a 20 gallon, used the same tank water, took two large filter sponges out of my sump that were full of bacteria for biological filtration that were put into a large fluval hang on back filter, same temperature was set as display.
The dosage was 1/8th teaspoon was recommended for every ten gallons to get 40mg/gal level for general quarantine. It said 80mg/gal was recommended for bad cases of ich or velvet for max dosage.
They were fine and active in the quarantine tank for 2 days and even ate despite the environment change. I then dosed two 1/8th teaspoons for the 20 gallons to get the minimum recommended dosage.
I watched them for about 10 to 12 hours they seemed okay. So i figured all was well, the medication was being tolerated well by them, and went to bed.
Then the next day they were all hiding, in retrospect I guess they were in pain and suffering from the medication. I moved the rocks around and the flame hawkfish was listless. I moved him with my hand, and he was disoriented and darted around a few times then hid again. So I figured something was really wrong and put a half poly filter and carbon in the filter right away.
I let it run with that for two hours, and noticed they were all still hiding. Looked for the flame hawkfish by picking up a lava rock i had for them to hide in and under, picked him right up, completely still, no gill movements. Dead.
Looked for the purple dottyback, it definitely got up and moved around, but listless and weak and starting swimming upside down within a few minutes.
Dead an hour later.
Did a 50% water change after that. Only 2 left were tomato clown and a blue yellowtail damselfish that are tough as hell. They seemed to perk up and were upright and were swimming in place instead of hiding so i figured everything was okay. I did notice they would just swim and stay in a single area, but they weren't disoriented or anything.
Dead the next day.
I searched online for chloro-quinine phosphate overdose, and I read about how an overdose in humans kills and is usually fatal and irreversible.
"OVERVIEW
Chloroquine is a potentially fatal poisoning often characterised by a rapid deterioration in an apparently "well" patient. Features of toxicity may develop within 30 minutes, death may occur within 3-4 hours, generally from myocardial depression and arrhythmia. A potentially fatal dose is approximately 50 mg/kg although there is wide variation in the response.
MECHANISM OF TOXIC EFFECTS
The presumed mechanism for the cardiac and neurological effects of chloroquine is blockade of voltage-gated ion channels. The exact type of block(s) has not been determined but the ECG changes in humans and animals suggest Ca++, Na+ and K+ channels may be involved as there is progressive prolongation of PR, QRS and QT intervals. Chloroquine is also a direct vasodilator."
I figure since fish have a heart and liver and kidneys and nerves and blood just like humans I guess they died the same way a human would and once exposed it was too late.
Had I done nothing, they would all still be alive, just irritated and occasional scratching.
In retrospect, I should have tried hyposalinity alone instead for 6 to 8 weeks, although I've read that doesn't eliminate the ich parasite 100%.
So today I feel terrible, because 3 of the 4 fish were wild-caught, ripped from the oceans, probably with cyanide (since i just read an article recently that STILL 70% of wild fish are caught with it...very sad)... then they were flown to the USA, survived the dealers tanks and stress... they survived all that, but they didn't survive me and a single dose of CP. The tomato clown I had was a tank raised one. All that just to be my pets.
Anyhow, be careful, have makeup water ready for a large water change and carbon at the ready b4 any medications. This medication is NOT non toxic and comes with the same death risks as copper IMO. Like the saying goes sometimes the treatment can be worse than the disease.
"the-cure-is-worse-than-the-disease"
Phrase
The medical treatment for an illness produces a worse net result than the illness does (threatens a non-negligible risk of doing so), especially via adverse effects.
(figuratively) The solution or proposed solution to a problem produces a worse net result than the problem does (threatens a non-negligible risk of doing so), especially via unintended consequences.
Thanks for listening, I feel terrible, my flame hawkfish was like a water puppy and would greet me at the top of the large live rock piece in the front and sit on top of it every time I came to the tank, and would eat right from my fingers and let me touch him a little. Was a great fish, very smart and dynamic personality.
At this point, I don't know if I want to continue with the saltwater hobby. My live rock and bubble tip anemone are fine in the display right now, but I'm thinking of selling it off.
A friend told me they are just fish, and to go out and get the same ones and start over, and that we eat fish etc, etc. I mean I do eat salmon and seafood sometimes, but fish caught for food in nets for food die a pretty fast death of suffocation after caught.
But, I've been in the hobby a long time, and I feel like at this point if I do continue on with the hobby I will only buy certified tank raised fish from this point on. Which limits me to clownfish and some of the dottybacks I guess.
But right now, I feel down and sad about it.
Sorry to be a downer about the hobby right now. Thanks for letting me vent here. I just feel mad guilty and I'm a sensitive guy.
Thanks guys, and please start with minimum dose, or even half of that to see if they can survive it first.
CP can kill! And pretty fast...
Be careful with dosing this. I had 4 fish with a minor case of ich. They were fine except for the scratching in the gills and occasional salt grains. They were in my tank for maybe 2 years with this condition on and off, but were fine, active, happy and ate very well. Eventually I saw more salt grains on my flame hawkfish, and decided I should probably take action so it didn't get any worse, and to improve their quality of life. The other fish seemed more resistant to it, but they did gill scratch occasionally.
I got them out of my display into a 20 gallon, used the same tank water, took two large filter sponges out of my sump that were full of bacteria for biological filtration that were put into a large fluval hang on back filter, same temperature was set as display.
The dosage was 1/8th teaspoon was recommended for every ten gallons to get 40mg/gal level for general quarantine. It said 80mg/gal was recommended for bad cases of ich or velvet for max dosage.
They were fine and active in the quarantine tank for 2 days and even ate despite the environment change. I then dosed two 1/8th teaspoons for the 20 gallons to get the minimum recommended dosage.
I watched them for about 10 to 12 hours they seemed okay. So i figured all was well, the medication was being tolerated well by them, and went to bed.
Then the next day they were all hiding, in retrospect I guess they were in pain and suffering from the medication. I moved the rocks around and the flame hawkfish was listless. I moved him with my hand, and he was disoriented and darted around a few times then hid again. So I figured something was really wrong and put a half poly filter and carbon in the filter right away.
I let it run with that for two hours, and noticed they were all still hiding. Looked for the flame hawkfish by picking up a lava rock i had for them to hide in and under, picked him right up, completely still, no gill movements. Dead.
Looked for the purple dottyback, it definitely got up and moved around, but listless and weak and starting swimming upside down within a few minutes.
Dead an hour later.
Did a 50% water change after that. Only 2 left were tomato clown and a blue yellowtail damselfish that are tough as hell. They seemed to perk up and were upright and were swimming in place instead of hiding so i figured everything was okay. I did notice they would just swim and stay in a single area, but they weren't disoriented or anything.
Dead the next day.
I searched online for chloro-quinine phosphate overdose, and I read about how an overdose in humans kills and is usually fatal and irreversible.
"OVERVIEW
Chloroquine is a potentially fatal poisoning often characterised by a rapid deterioration in an apparently "well" patient. Features of toxicity may develop within 30 minutes, death may occur within 3-4 hours, generally from myocardial depression and arrhythmia. A potentially fatal dose is approximately 50 mg/kg although there is wide variation in the response.
MECHANISM OF TOXIC EFFECTS
The presumed mechanism for the cardiac and neurological effects of chloroquine is blockade of voltage-gated ion channels. The exact type of block(s) has not been determined but the ECG changes in humans and animals suggest Ca++, Na+ and K+ channels may be involved as there is progressive prolongation of PR, QRS and QT intervals. Chloroquine is also a direct vasodilator."
I figure since fish have a heart and liver and kidneys and nerves and blood just like humans I guess they died the same way a human would and once exposed it was too late.
Had I done nothing, they would all still be alive, just irritated and occasional scratching.
In retrospect, I should have tried hyposalinity alone instead for 6 to 8 weeks, although I've read that doesn't eliminate the ich parasite 100%.
So today I feel terrible, because 3 of the 4 fish were wild-caught, ripped from the oceans, probably with cyanide (since i just read an article recently that STILL 70% of wild fish are caught with it...very sad)... then they were flown to the USA, survived the dealers tanks and stress... they survived all that, but they didn't survive me and a single dose of CP. The tomato clown I had was a tank raised one. All that just to be my pets.
Anyhow, be careful, have makeup water ready for a large water change and carbon at the ready b4 any medications. This medication is NOT non toxic and comes with the same death risks as copper IMO. Like the saying goes sometimes the treatment can be worse than the disease.
"the-cure-is-worse-than-the-disease"
Phrase
The medical treatment for an illness produces a worse net result than the illness does (threatens a non-negligible risk of doing so), especially via adverse effects.
(figuratively) The solution or proposed solution to a problem produces a worse net result than the problem does (threatens a non-negligible risk of doing so), especially via unintended consequences.
Thanks for listening, I feel terrible, my flame hawkfish was like a water puppy and would greet me at the top of the large live rock piece in the front and sit on top of it every time I came to the tank, and would eat right from my fingers and let me touch him a little. Was a great fish, very smart and dynamic personality.
At this point, I don't know if I want to continue with the saltwater hobby. My live rock and bubble tip anemone are fine in the display right now, but I'm thinking of selling it off.
A friend told me they are just fish, and to go out and get the same ones and start over, and that we eat fish etc, etc. I mean I do eat salmon and seafood sometimes, but fish caught for food in nets for food die a pretty fast death of suffocation after caught.
But, I've been in the hobby a long time, and I feel like at this point if I do continue on with the hobby I will only buy certified tank raised fish from this point on. Which limits me to clownfish and some of the dottybacks I guess.
But right now, I feel down and sad about it.
Sorry to be a downer about the hobby right now. Thanks for letting me vent here. I just feel mad guilty and I'm a sensitive guy.
Thanks guys, and please start with minimum dose, or even half of that to see if they can survive it first.
lagatbezan
Active member
unfortunately all medications come with some risk factor and I'm sorry it didn't go well for you 
Where did you get your CP from?
Also its best to measure the amount you are using with a digital scale to be sure you are adding the right amount. I try to measure the amount of volume of water I have in the tank as well. I personally usually only add 50-60mg/g at most only if I see visible symptoms. If not, just 40mg/g. Its best to add any medication in small progression and raise it up within a few days. Also I know that certain fish like hippo tangs, Anthias and wrases are extremely sensitive to CP and don't cope well with it. (not sure what your other fish were).
my other guess would be oxygen deprivation if proper water movement or an airstone wasn't added to the qt to help with the gas exchange.
Do't give up, we have all been there! take a short break by keeping the DT empty for a while (76-90 days) and start adding fish again after doing a qt
Where did you get your CP from?
Also its best to measure the amount you are using with a digital scale to be sure you are adding the right amount. I try to measure the amount of volume of water I have in the tank as well. I personally usually only add 50-60mg/g at most only if I see visible symptoms. If not, just 40mg/g. Its best to add any medication in small progression and raise it up within a few days. Also I know that certain fish like hippo tangs, Anthias and wrases are extremely sensitive to CP and don't cope well with it. (not sure what your other fish were).
my other guess would be oxygen deprivation if proper water movement or an airstone wasn't added to the qt to help with the gas exchange.
Do't give up, we have all been there! take a short break by keeping the DT empty for a while (76-90 days) and start adding fish again after doing a qt
lagatbezan
Active member
Yes, you are correct. Its a dose once and thats it. Except when adjusting for water changed.
Also agree with the fact thats important where you get the CP from. Best place to get it is from diamondback_com since they test every batch for purity and the ones purchased from ebay or other places could not really be what they say it is or not in the best pure form.
MrsBugmaster
New member
Does CP evaporate as water evaporates? I currently have about a half gallon a day water evaporate from QT tank. I keep topping off everyday and just wanted to make sure cp doesn't evaporate too. Is there any way to test for cp in the water?
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
No the CP won't evaporate
Dennis 30 , I too have had issues with cp . I had some Bangii cardinals that succumbed . I feel that cp was more the cause . That's one reason why I do ttm additionally. I had problems with hypo not doing well with cardinals also . But that maybe just my issues . When I dose cp I try to do the 40 instead of the 80mg/gal and do TTM during the treatment time span with quick FW dips in between transfers . Seems overkill but I like the lower dose and the way TTM is not medication . I do all three if I know if I have ick . If I don't see ick the I go wth TTM and FW dips in between .
tkeracer619
New member
Does anyone have true USP CP from a compounding pharmacy? Can you PM me?
I bought the equipment needed to test CP.
I bought the equipment needed to test CP.
tkeracer619
New member
Ok... after a few trial runs I'm confident this is testing properly. My first chart... green line is what my tank measured. At 25mg/Gal it's about half of what I would have expected.
If someone can get me some known pure USP grade CP I'll be able to create an accurate slope and then I'll be able to measure the purity of these random sources. Let's stop guessing about our CP concentrations. Enough running in circles.
ganeshremedies
New member
to remove any metabolites or degraded chemical, which may be in solution, is recommended. Also, since phosphate is part of the compound's formula, the use of this compound will tend to increase the concentration of this undesirable algae nutrient, if by no other reason than default. Besides a water change, the use of phosphate-removing media may be required after the treatment has ended. And as with most chemicals, activated carbon should be placed back in the filter to remove the remaining drug from solution, and to fully terminate the treatment.
Dmorty217
Saltwater Addict
Ok... after a few trial runs I'm confident this is testing properly. My first chart... green line is what my tank measured. At 25mg/Gal it's about half of what I would have expected.
If someone can get me some known pure USP grade CP I'll be able to create an accurate slope and then I'll be able to measure the purity of these random sources. Let's stop guessing about our CP concentrations. Enough running in circles.
You will need to go to the local vet and tell them that you need a prescription for your fish for ich and tell them you need CP. There is a company diamond back or diamond something out of Arizona that will provide you 99% pure CP that they get from a place in Canada and they test each and every batch that they get and send it back if it doesn't meet their standards. You could PM Humblefish and get the actual name of the place I am talking about. My memory isn't the best so I apologize :headwally:
lagatbezan
Active member
I just got an order filled from diamondback that came in. PM me and I will provide you with a sample.
Just wanted to add a few observations to this thread...
1. I'm not a chemist, but I have a friend who is and he tests my Chloroquine. He has informed me that a spectrophotometer is not really suitable for testing CP because the photometer "sees" everything that absorbs UV light of a certain wavelength. So it can not distinguish between actual CP and (most likely ineffective) metabolites present in the water.
2. He uses a HPLC with UV detection to test Chloroquine in the water. That equipment is ~ 50k USD.
3. Diamondback Drugs sell pharmaceutical grade (99% pure) CP, but they also require a vet Rx: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/
4. Backup plan would be CP from one of the two sources below. Their CP has tested 94-96% pure, which is adequate for our purposes. Just overdose slightly to compensate.
https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODUCT-LIST-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE-22937.Item.html
https://store.nationalfishpharm.com/items/view/616/chloroquine-phosphate
1. I'm not a chemist, but I have a friend who is and he tests my Chloroquine. He has informed me that a spectrophotometer is not really suitable for testing CP because the photometer "sees" everything that absorbs UV light of a certain wavelength. So it can not distinguish between actual CP and (most likely ineffective) metabolites present in the water.
2. He uses a HPLC with UV detection to test Chloroquine in the water. That equipment is ~ 50k USD.
3. Diamondback Drugs sell pharmaceutical grade (99% pure) CP, but they also require a vet Rx: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/
4. Backup plan would be CP from one of the two sources below. Their CP has tested 94-96% pure, which is adequate for our purposes. Just overdose slightly to compensate.
https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODUCT-LIST-CHLOROQUINE-PHOSPHATE-22937.Item.html
https://store.nationalfishpharm.com/items/view/616/chloroquine-phosphate
ganeshremedies
New member
Further research led to finding some public aquariums experimenting with it and having very good success treating the above-mentioned maladies, including Uronema. Early experiments with the product showed that while much safer and less toxic than other traditional treatments of the past, it did have a negative effect on alga. Therefore, aquarium alga and invertebrates containing zooxanthellae were at risk, which were witnessed firsthand in some early experiments, where some soft and stony corals perished (L. Ichinotsubo, pers. com.). Nevertheless, Richard Terrell of the Pittsburgh Zoo Aquarium & PPG Aquarium has reported using chloroquine-dosed gel foods to halt an outbreak of Cryptocaryon in a giant clam exhibit, with excellent results and credits Robyn Doege of the Dallas World Aquarium for providing the information.
In a preparation of the gel food that is made at the aquarium, Rich states: "I used our Metronidazole gel recipe to arrive at an approximation for the Chloroquine. Metro is mixed at 625mg/100g gel diet to yield 25mg/Kg body weight. Chloroquine is supposed to be 50mg/Kg. So I added 3.7g of Chloroquine phosphate to 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water to make the consistency I want. I estimated about 100-125g of fish in the exhibit. Figuring a little less than one part gel powder and medication mixture per one part water by weight, I arrived at about 4 g of gel food per feed. For the garlic gel I mixed about a third of one container of garlic powder into roughly 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water and mixed."
In a preparation of the gel food that is made at the aquarium, Rich states: "I used our Metronidazole gel recipe to arrive at an approximation for the Chloroquine. Metro is mixed at 625mg/100g gel diet to yield 25mg/Kg body weight. Chloroquine is supposed to be 50mg/Kg. So I added 3.7g of Chloroquine phosphate to 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water to make the consistency I want. I estimated about 100-125g of fish in the exhibit. Figuring a little less than one part gel powder and medication mixture per one part water by weight, I arrived at about 4 g of gel food per feed. For the garlic gel I mixed about a third of one container of garlic powder into roughly 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water and mixed."
ganeshremedies
New member
Further research led to finding some public aquariums experimenting with it and having very good success treating the above-mentioned maladies, including Uronema. Early experiments with the product showed that while much safer and less toxic than other traditional treatments of the past, it did have a negative effect on alga. Therefore, aquarium alga and invertebrates containing zooxanthellae were at risk, which were witnessed firsthand in some early experiments, where some soft and stony corals perished (L. Ichinotsubo, pers. com.). Nevertheless, Richard Terrell of the Pittsburgh Zoo Aquarium & PPG Aquarium has reported using chloroquine-dosed gel foods to halt an outbreak of Cryptocaryon in a giant clam exhibit, with excellent results and credits Robyn Doege of the Dallas World Aquarium for providing the information.
In a preparation of the gel food that is made at the aquarium, Rich states: "I used our Metronidazole gel recipe to arrive at an approximation for the Chloroquine. Metro is mixed at 625mg/100g gel diet to yield 25mg/Kg body weight. Chloroquine is supposed to be 50mg/Kg. So I added 3.7g of Chloroquine phosphate to 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water to make the consistency I want. I estimated about 100-125g of fish in the exhibit. Figuring a little less than one part gel powder and medication mixture per one part water by weight, I arrived at about 4 g of gel food per feed. For the garlic gel I mixed about a third of one container of garlic powder into roughly 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water and mixed."
Cyclopropanecarbonitrile-CAS NO.- 5500-21-0 |Methyl cyclopropanecarboxylate-CAS NO.- 2868-37-3 |Cyclopropanecarboxamide-CAS NO.- 6228-73-5 |2-Furoic acid-CAS NO.- 88-14-2 |1-(2-Chloroethyl)pyrrolidine hydrochloride-CAS NO.- 7250-67-1 |thien-4-yl-piperazine-Monohydrochloride]1-Benzothien-4-yl-piperazine Monohydrochloride-CAS NO.- 913614-18-3 |7-(4-Bromobutoxy)-3,4-dihydro-2(1H)-quinolinone-CAS NO.- 129722-34-5 |Tyramine Hydrochloride-CAS NO.- 60-19-5 |1,2-Cyclohexanedicarboxylic acid-CAS NO.- 1687-30-5 |Dibenzosuberone-CAS NO.- 1210-35-1 |Methyl 4-chlorobutyrate-CAS NO.- 3153-37-5 |
In a preparation of the gel food that is made at the aquarium, Rich states: "I used our Metronidazole gel recipe to arrive at an approximation for the Chloroquine. Metro is mixed at 625mg/100g gel diet to yield 25mg/Kg body weight. Chloroquine is supposed to be 50mg/Kg. So I added 3.7g of Chloroquine phosphate to 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water to make the consistency I want. I estimated about 100-125g of fish in the exhibit. Figuring a little less than one part gel powder and medication mixture per one part water by weight, I arrived at about 4 g of gel food per feed. For the garlic gel I mixed about a third of one container of garlic powder into roughly 300g gel powder. Then I added hot water and mixed."
Cyclopropanecarbonitrile-CAS NO.- 5500-21-0 |Methyl cyclopropanecarboxylate-CAS NO.- 2868-37-3 |Cyclopropanecarboxamide-CAS NO.- 6228-73-5 |2-Furoic acid-CAS NO.- 88-14-2 |1-(2-Chloroethyl)pyrrolidine hydrochloride-CAS NO.- 7250-67-1 |thien-4-yl-piperazine-Monohydrochloride]1-Benzothien-4-yl-piperazine Monohydrochloride-CAS NO.- 913614-18-3 |7-(4-Bromobutoxy)-3,4-dihydro-2(1H)-quinolinone-CAS NO.- 129722-34-5 |Tyramine Hydrochloride-CAS NO.- 60-19-5 |1,2-Cyclohexanedicarboxylic acid-CAS NO.- 1687-30-5 |Dibenzosuberone-CAS NO.- 1210-35-1 |Methyl 4-chlorobutyrate-CAS NO.- 3153-37-5 |
Vinny Kreyling
Premium Member
Does anyone know the dosage when used as an algaecide?
Thanks
Thanks
20mg/gal ought to do it. Chloroquine is a strong algaecide even at low levels.
