my rice experiment

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ok, now that everyone jumped off the rice train, i was thinking about Tapioca peals. They are made of Starch. What do you guys think? I understand that vodka and biopellets work but im interested in a alternative that is already available like the rice was.

thanks
 
thebanker said:
I don't think the rice would in any way help the skimmer pull out "stuff it missed." It just doesn't make any sense to me, unless the rice changes the molecular structure of the organics so they become polarized with hyrdrophilic / phobic ends.
Click to expand...

You're right. As the rice degrades the skimmer kicks into high gear pulling out the new dissolving/degraded products.

The rice will not change the molecular structure of organics in the water.
 
tmz said:
Yes and if the vodka doesn't do all you want it to do for the tank you can drink it and everything will look better.
Click to expand...

:lol:

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Using starches in a reef tank can be overdosed easily & can lead to negative effects regarding coral. Hobbyists (including myself) that have tried dosing corn starch have discovered this. :)
 
HighlandReefer said:
If hobbyists have discovered cheaper places to purchase PHA for DIY, I would be interested in a link that allows you to purchase it. So far, I have not found any links for purchase like with the PCL.
Click to expand...

Ecomann of China is making PHA resin:
www.ecomann.cn

You can find links here:
http://ecomann.en.ecplaza.net/

Biodegradable Resin/EM5231A (EM5231A is a polyhydroxyalkanoates copolymer (PHAs),with fully degradable characteristics and excellent physical synthesis performance，especially high flexural strength and modulus. It is mainly used for injection-molded, and hard sheet, plate sheet，etc. It can be blended with other materials to process diffrent kinds of products.)
http://ecomann.en.ecplaza.net/9.asp

or

Biodegradable Resin /EM5237T (EM5237T is a polyhydroxyalkanoates copolymer (PHAs) compounding material, with fully degradable characteristics and excellent physical synthesis performance,especially high flexural strength and modulus. It is mainly used for injection, also hard sheet, plate sheet and etc.)
http://ecomann.en.ecplaza.net/1.asp
 
quick recap

seeing that icycoral and daveonbass have oth jumped off the bandwagon, its a little disappointing as we didnt get to test out the rice theory completely.

I agree that rice is still relatively new and its difficult to pinpoint what TYPE of rice we would need to make this work. but believe me, of all the concerns that have been addressed in this thread, it has all been put to rest because they are too small an amount which will be taken care of with carbon and regular waterchanges.

the reason for starting the rice experiment was not because I wanted to be cheap, I just want to find an alternative to solid carbon dosing which was available to everyone.

now back to the TEST ......even though I have not been posting on this thread since the time I've had issues with my electricoty, I have been reading and seing what people have to say.
am I still using rice? YES I'm still using rice. infact I even found out that EXCESSIVE usage of rice will COMPLETELY deplete your oxygen levels because of the HIGH amoung of bacteria that grows in the system.

3 or 4 days ago, I bumped the amount of rice in the reactor to about 2 cups, and for some reason totally unrelated to my rice experiment, my scwd started acting up, and has slowed the return flow. with the return flow slowed down, and the excess rice, I suddenly noticed that none of my fish were out, and corals looked a little stressed. I saw my fishes breathing heavily and quickly put in two battery operated airstones.
I've tanken the reactor off, but still filled with water to see what happens to the stagnant water.

I will be measuring no3 in the reactor water which has been sitting for about 2 days.


Since I started this out as being a guniea pig for everyone, I figure why not go out the entire way and finish what I started.........
 
I disagree, nothing has been put to rest. The rice didn't actually work, and there is NO WAY to make this available to everyone, cause all rice will be different. Even different from the same crop. There is no way to know or to control how much each different grain of rice uptakes different levels of nutrient. There is no controlling rice, and it just goes bad long term anyways. The point of the experiment for me was to find a way to make things easier. And it doesn't, in fact it's more trouble than biopellets. So for me this experiment is both over, and a complete failure.

I would never recommend anyone put rice into their system.
 
I think some of the main problems with the rice is that it breaks down too rapidly, and there are too many unknowns. I think you will have this problem with any grains. Bioplastics are the way forward IMO.
 
daveonbass said:
I disagree, nothing has been put to rest. The rice didn't actually work, and there is NO WAY to make this available to everyone, cause all rice will be different. Even different from the same crop. There is no way to know or to control how much each different grain of rice uptakes different levels of nutrient. There is no controlling rice, and it just goes bad long term anyways. The point of the experiment for me was to find a way to make things easier. And it doesn't, in fact it's more trouble than biopellets. So for me this experiment is both over, and a complete failure.

I would never recommend anyone put rice into their system.
Click to expand...

dave, its really sad to know that it didn't work for you. but as you know, this is not a tried and tested method, infact we are still experimenting on this. we still need to figure out what rice is best suited, how much to use etc etc.

how can you say rice goes bad long term?, Aurora and myself had some issues with poweroutages, but so far, it seems like we were both doing good with the rice. so far the only common thing between me and aurora was that WE BOTH USED JAPANESE RICE. using japanese plain rice we didnt have any of the problems that you had.

I really appreciate that you jumped onto the train and ur inputs were really valuable, but do u really think that just cuz it didnt work for you, it wont work for anyone else?
at this stage we DONT KNOW ANYTHING about which rice, how much rice, how long for the rice to be changed etc etc.

Rice is an excellent source of carbon dosing, we just have to get to the sweet spot.
 
again I respectfully disagree. It's a carbon source, but not an excellent one, it's a bad one. If for no other reason than the fact that it can not be quality controlled. All the BP's can be made with the same amount of ingredients, but we can not control what the plants uptake while making rige. Each crop would be different and it would change from harvest to harvest. No control over what is being put into the tank. And most reefers love knowing what's going in their tanks ( or not going in).

next is the problems of what most people have experienced. Bacteria blooms are not desired, even by the BP makers. After tine passes the rice will break down and release whatever is in it. Plus many people, myself included have noticed the nitrates going up with rice usage. That's counter productive. And if the power goes out, or the pump breaks, the rice actually becomes dangerious for the tank. That's way too many problems. And no I don't think there even IS a sweet spot. It's just bad.

I still stress what I though when I started. I had a tank with NO3 issues, where as many others were adding rice to a well working tank with low NO3 and PO4 alread. Not to mention how many people have dosed other stuff prior to using the rice. There's no proof that all that biological activity that was already present wasn't what was keeping the tank cleen from the new rice intruder. The fact that over longer periods of time it seems to start to degrade faster makes me question that even more. So the point here is we still don't know if rice actually did anything.

so again if anyone still wants to try this. I say do it at your own risk. After less than 2 weeks of using rice my tank went from stable and attractive, to stressed corals and cyno everywhere. Rice was all that was changed. After removing the rice, it's taken till now for the life to look "ok" again. So I will not be putting that back in.

and for the record I too used plain japanese rice...just short grain for sushi.
 
tmz said:
I agree with Nate and Cliff and would not personally use rice in my system.

Here are a few reasons taken from one of my earlier posts that developed throughout this thread:

A summary might be worthwhile for those considering using rice for carbon dosing.
I'll start and perhaps others might add pros and cons or debate.

Rice will provide a carbon source as it breaks down, a saccaride
(It is mostly carbohydrate). This will fuel bacteria and may fuel the growth of bacteria that will reduce NO3 and PO4 provided they are exported via gac(granulated activated carbon)and skimming and the additions of nitrogen in the rice are offset.

A saccaride at some point turns to glucose among other things as I understand it and Cliff has cited articles in the past that show glucose in particular may have a detrimental effect on corals. This has also been my personal experience when dosing sucrose( table sugar) which combines fructose and glucose.

Rice may contain trace metals which can be harmful in a reef tank.

Rice provides a fertile field for fungi and scary mycotoxins.

Rice contains significant fiixed nitrogen in the protein and B vitamins; fats too. . So it's questionable as to wether it will add to NO3 or PO4 in some situations.

While it may be possible to control the rice breakdown and the amount of organic carbon released by flow adjustments. I'm skeptical that this is achievable with current technology and knowlege of how rice decays.

There is no long term experience with rice dosing to evaluate as there is with other sources such as ethanol and vinegar for example.


__________________
Tom
Click to expand...

These issues evolved from several very knowlegeable folks throughout the thread. None of them have been" put to rest". It's not just a matter of a "sweet spot" in my opinion and I would not recommend it or use it, personally.
 
i spent hours reading optimistically along in this thread and I hate to agree, i dont think rice is a win. It WILL be different every time, and by the time you guys got a good culture on the rice it sounds like it started to break down too fast, adding in more no3 than the bacteria could use up. I wish i could see a way for it to really be ok, but sounds too dangerous to me!
 
I try to make a good fuss on rice but when you have two user rice nitrate going up allmost the same time. It's just not a good sign on keep using it.
 
elijaher said:
I try to make a good fuss on rice but when you have two user rice nitrate going up allmost the same time. It's just not a good sign on keep using it.
Click to expand...

you have 2 users, dave and icycoral, who had nitrate issues.
then you have 2 users without ANY issues, aruroa and myself.


so u dump the experiment, or so u try to see what the difference in the two groups were, and what was determental to the differences.
 
I understand that quality cannot be controlled. But what about quantity? Instead of 1/2cup / 50 gallons. Try 2 tablespoons / 50?
 
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