Open letter to the LED industry

[eyesinthedrk]

the mili and garff are in the sand bed the day i brought them home from the frag swap. in three months they have held their color the mili has started 8 new growth tips and the garf has encrusted the plug. thats pretty good for a beginner based on everything ive read. and more important to this thread they never lost color.

i wasnt trying to impress anyone with the color, cell phone pics never do, the point was that they held their color from the mh lights they were under to a SPS noobs led tank. something the LED detractors keep saying cant happen. the purple acro is a decieving pic as the new pic is top down so the new branches aren't growing horizontal but slightly inclined, that said some of the new growth branches are over 1" long

so is 1"+ of growth in 4 months considered bad growth?

 

[Vannpytt]

the mili and garff are in the sand bed the day i brought them home from the frag swap. in three months they have held their color the mili has started 8 new growth tips and the garf has encrusted the plug. thats pretty good for a beginner based on everything ive read. and more important to this thread they never lost color.

i wasnt trying to impress anyone with the color, cell phone pics never do, the point was that they held their color from the mh lights they were under to a SPS noobs led tank. something the LED detractors keep saying cant happen. the purple acro is a decieving pic as the new pic is top down so the new branches aren't growing horizontal but slightly inclined, that said some of the new growth branches are over 1" long

so is 1"+ of growth in 4 months considered bad growth?

I'm really sorry if your think I'm unfair to your accomplishments. What settings are you running your LED fixture at, how many LEDs total, lenses etc?

 

[eyesinthedrk]

so avoid the question?

is over 1" of new growth in 4 months not good enough? would metal halide do better?

 

[jerpa]

What I like is how 5 years ago it was t5 are "okay" for softies polyps and some LPS but you NEED MH for the high light corals. Now I hear everything from LED cant grow coral or sure green corals look good but not reds and blues, you need t5 or mh to grow coral with good color. Same arguments, just a new light to pick on. Did t5s get better? Are the individual reflectors get even more polished? Or did the detractors just have to eat crow and admit they were talking out their backsides?

It sounds the same as my mom complaining about cell phones.my grandpa complaining about automatic transitions, and to be honest me complaining about skinny jeans.

My pendants have two different whites (can't remember the k) on one channel and blue and royal blue on the other. Growth is great colors are awesome. They will fry your sps if you don't light acclimate properly. I know I did. But you can try your theoretical science all you like it doesn't change the results. My tank has been led since day one almost a year ago no zeo or bio pellets or vodka or any other speciality methods just a sump with a large skimmer a huge fugue and a small reactor with carbon in it

so avoid the question?

is over 1" of new growth in 4 months not good enough?

Your growth is good, but you stated it was great amidst your rant which was followed by pics to back up your statements. That is decent growth but I would not call it great. I doubt it has to do with the lights though since growth has seldom been a problem with LED's. Most people's complaints center around color.

would metal halide do better?

Would it? I don't know. Could it? Absolutely.

 

[asid61]

Since this is supposed to be an open letter to the LED industry, let me rant a little.

You guys are a bunch of techies who just love being innovative and trying out new things. Some reefers share this passion but most of us do not. We all know what the best and most popular MH/T5 combos are. What is so hard about just mimicking this light in a multi chip? It might not be 100% perfect but it has proven that it works very well. If you could do it with a kick *** heatsink so we can skip the fans/insane evaporation too that would be fantastic. I know it sounds boring but you would sell a lot of those.

Imagine a world where you could stop worrying about spectrums and the quality of your top off water.

First of all, the entire point of this thread is to determine what the best combination of leds is. I can't recall any fixture that precisely mimic MH right now.
A good MH mimic is the "Evil Cluster", which uses a giant bridgelux (not the ripoffs that Aquastyle has, REAL bridgelux with 120 lm/w) array surrounded by Luxeon M royal blues and hyper violets.

Secondly, led heatsinks have little to do with the heat going into the water. The design of the led makes it so that little goes into the water regardless. In fact, a better heatsink will make the led cooler and put out MORE light, so it is arguably worse to have a big heatsink. But leds don't put out much heat anyway to that tank.

This place calculates graphs based on what leds you use: http://www.1023world.net/diy/spectra/
so that might come in handy for many manufacturers. But I can't comment on it's accuracy.


EDIT: Just a quick question: what are the densities of chlorophyll A vs. chlorophyll B? They do have different peaks, so I believe it's relevant.

 

[eyesinthedrk]

"Your growth is good, but you stated it was great amidst your rant which was followed by pics to back up your statements. That is decent growth but I would not call it great. I doubt it has to do with the lights though since growth has seldom been a problem with LED's. Most people's complaints center around color."

fair enough, and i just showed you pics of mh grown frags under led on day one and that the color is the same 3 months later ig you like ill take some more of my other frags. but i have heard they cant grow, they cant hold color, they cant hold specific colors, they cant fry bacon like good old MH can.

and as i stated at the beginning i heard all the same nonsense about T5s 5 years ago. there as been no major innovations with t5. they are just all of a sudden magically acceptable. only difference i see is now there is a new kid on the block to kick around.

i will say this. LED do not photograph well. i cant snap a pic in sunset mode to show off the way they fluores. the blue light washes out any and all color in the pics on my cheap digital cameras.

 

[wildman926]

Secondly, led heatsinks have little to do with the heat going into the water. The design of the led makes it so that little goes into the water regardless. In fact, a better heatsink will make the led cooler and put out MORE light, so it is arguably worse to have a big heatsink. But leds don't put out much heat anyway to that tank.

The reference to the heatsink was to get rid of fans. Fixtures dependent upon fans, are held hostage to them. If they go out, you can't run your light.

 

[asid61]

The reference to the heatsink was to get rid of fans. Fixtures dependent upon fans, are held hostage to them. If they go out, you can't run your light.

Oh, apologies.
Well, fans rarely fail. Plus, the heatsinks keep the leds from melting usually.
But in the case of dense matrix things like Kessils, it's a very real concern.
The solution then is to run multiple fans, maybe 2 or 3. using 2 80mm fans instead of a single 120mm could help considerably.

Utilizing passive cooling is hard on form factor. The only heatsink I have seen with good passive cooling is the Razor, and that works very well. However, it is much bigger than it could be, compared to things like Radions.

 

[nynick]

First of all, the entire point of this thread is to determine what the best combination of leds is. I can't recall any fixture that precisely mimic MH right now.
A good MH mimic is the "Evil Cluster", which uses a giant bridgelux (not the ripoffs that Aquastyle has, REAL bridgelux with 120 lm/w) array surrounded by Luxeon M royal blues and hyper violets.

Secondly, led heatsinks have little to do with the heat going into the water. The design of the led makes it so that little goes into the water regardless. In fact, a better heatsink will make the led cooler and put out MORE light, so it is arguably worse to have a big heatsink. But leds don't put out much heat anyway to that tank.

This place calculates graphs based on what leds you use: http://www.1023world.net/diy/spectra/
so that might come in handy for many manufacturers. But I can't comment on it's accuracy.


EDIT: Just a quick question: what are the densities of chlorophyll A vs. chlorophyll B? They do have different peaks, so I believe it's relevant.

The point with the heat sink was to skip the fan. Heat going into the tank from the lights cause very little evaporation, the fans drain your tank fast.

I do understand that this thread is about making LED the best they can possibly be but we do not even have a good industry standard yet so how about we start with that. Take a Radion bulb/actinic supplement and make a graph of it's light. Then take a multi chip panel and start fibbing around with the chips until you get as close as possible to the Radion/actinic combo ... and done!

I have seen people asking for this for years and not a single LED producer for the hobby has made one. How hard can it possibly be? Not every LED fixture needs to boldly go where none has gone before. I admire and applaud the strive for excellence but lets face it, how much better than radion/T5 actinic can you get spectrum wise?

How about it Przemek?

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Hi ;-)
Its much more difficult than you think.
Light spectrum build by T5 bulbs depend from used gasses and and phosphor layers - newest T5 bulbs used Tri-phosphor coating(like ATI Purple Plus or KZ Fiji Purple - its almost the same bulbs - like ATI Aquablue and AquaMedic Blue Plus)... We have measured them all - and compared together..
If you will see - T5 tubes produce very narrow peaks - with "fat" lower parts - a specially in Actinic range(400-500nm). If you will comapre white and blue t5 bulbs - you will see that they are similar - the difference is additional peak at 570-580nm and above 610-620nm..
Light produced by LED chips looks little different - you can produce "single, narrow peaks" like in T5.. Even if LED are monochromatic - emitted light spectrum is "wider" than T5 peaks..

They arent "full spectrum" light source - but you have to agree, that can "paint" our corals amazing,isnt true? ;-)
With multichannel panels you are able to simulate almost all avalaible light sources - but only when you have possibility to increase/decrease power of every channel in important spectrum range..
I dont think so that using T5 is strongly needed(together with LED panels) if you can adjust power of each channel(in different ranges)..
Combo units are perfect for wide SPS tanks, because T5 bulbs are linear source of light - and they produce "filling light" which allow to cover all dark areas without any shadows...
For example - please compare that two spectrums - one from our Hyperion SMT and second, from other very good and popular lamp.
Our didnt use white leds, the second uses..
Please compare how that spectrum is builded - all lamps are on 100%(as I know)..

You can see MAIN difference in range near 500nm.. How much important it is?
Its VERY important - please take a look for that chart - and notice, that almost 40% from ALL DISCOVERED corals pigments have excitatation(absorption) area near 500nm(485-515nm).

You can believe me or not - but using additional T5 bulbs for better corals colors(nice and stron pigments) is not needed if that area is covered.
Of course - it have to be PROPER light intensity to deliver proper amoutn of energy to Chlorophyll cells and produce food(glucose) for coral by symbiotic algae..
If power will be too small(even if spectrum will be proper) - coral will never be colorfull - it will go brown or will bleach(if algae will die).
Regards

Przemek

PS. I compared that spectrums using founded spectrum charts - with information on which ranges(wavelenghts) they are drawed.. I dont know why the other led spectrum is shifted strongly to left(430-435nm peak) - its not possible with used LED config so maybe its mistake(probably).

 

[nynick]

Thanks for the charts.

I didn't mean that you should use a T5, just to mimic the spectrum of the bulky and inconvenient MH/T5 combo with one multichip led panel. I understand that is it difficult to get to be perferctly the same but reasonably close should not be that hard right?

I have seen threads where people have come fairly close with DIY projects. For those of us that will likely burn down the house if we DIY anything, this multichip would be amazing.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

We did some measurments popular hqi/t5 combos and we have charts of them(in my office, not in my home).
I will try to find it and show you how it looks - and we will check possibility to mimic that spectrum by using multichannel matrix..
But as I told - not everything is possible, due little different method of generating lightwaves and wider wave peaks(than produced by T5 tubes).
You can mimim the same with fixture including white leds - bu tit can be little difficult - and you have to have many channels for manual adjust.
Give me few days, I on extra short holidays since tommorow(up to end of Friday ;-)

Regards!

Przemek
PS. Today was 34 degree!(on the sun - 42)..
Its UNNORMAL in our region..

 

[nynick]

yay, thanks

Next step, sell them in Canada!

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

so avoid the question?

is over 1" of new growth in 4 months not good enough? would metal halide do better?

Your corals growth is nice, I could say - middle average Are feeding them? What is your ca/kh level?
As it was written in this thread, light isnt only one important factor affecting corals growth.
Water quality(stable parameters), additional feeding and micro/macro elements supplementation also decide how fast your corals will growth.

I found some pictures from our test tank(with grow progres) which was lighted by our T5 LED Tubes - combo 1:1(blue:white - but white with GREEN tint)
PS Norther Star 22W and PS SW 22W - total 10pcs.
Last photo (withotu mark) was did on 6th June 2009 year. So - you can see that we are on LED market since almost 5 years(that tank grotwh from small frags) - I dont know how many companies have similar experiences in LED aquarium industry.. ;-)

and full tank shot(from left side)

next photo one month later:

picture crop:

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Now most important...
It was 220W in OLD type LED tubes(90lm/W for white and 250mW/W for Royal Blue) -tank 160 gal.. Withous focusing lenses, lamp hanged 10cm above water..

So, if we will compare that LED datasheet to actual used on market(like XM-L/XT-E Cree) - that lamp should have 110-120W(TOTAL) and should did the same work!...
That light was dark for our eyes but corals growth like crazy..
something to think about? :crazy1:

 

[Vannpytt]

and as i stated at the beginning i heard all the same nonsense about T5s 5 years ago. there as been no major innovations with t5. they are just all of a sudden magically acceptable. only difference i see is now there is a new kid on the block to kick around.

Not true, there has come out a large selection of tubes to create different spectrums, cooling and different types of reflectors. Take a look in the T5 Q&A thread.

so avoid the question?

is over 1" of new growth in 4 months not good enough? would metal halide do better?

It's "ok", your corals look drab, even less colorful than I had under my DIY LEDs and I had about 2-3cm a month, which isn't really that great either. Sure it's harder to take pictures under LEDs as all the intensity comming from the blue LEDs ruin your picture.

 

[eyesinthedrk]

again that wasnt a "look at my beautiful coral" pic it was a not lost any color due to switch from mh to led.

your quote from the OP " this is also why running high power white LEDs never will be anything but a disaster for especially acropora keepers, both in terms of growth and colors"

my system current system is under a year old, my total experience with sps was 2 frags last october and the rest this past april. i have no cal or alk dosing other than water changes which i do 16% (ish) maybe every 2 months at the most. the Apollo pendants i run have more whites and more total LEDs than any AI or Echotech. so if your statement in the initial post were true it should, by all accounts, be more true for me than anyone else. though my growth and color may not be good enough for you, the statement that its a disaster is absolutely false.

 

[jda]

Most hardcore SPS people who are not interested in LED don't have one year old tanks that don't need calcium or alk supplements for their growing SPS... they have multi-year old tanks that need jugs and jugs of reactor media, 2 part, or the like. They know people nationwide that they trade limited editions with and share experiences and advice. They have the best colors imaginable, the breath and depth of knowledge and experience to know what has worked, what looks great - these are the people whom the post was referring to IMO. Who has seen hard-core TOTM quality SPS keepers running LED, or even farmers or fraggers that make a living doing this? There might be some, but not many - I have not actually seen any. Listen, LEDs work for some people, but they are no equal to other forms of lighting for these folks.

 

[gcarroll]

I had about 2-3cm a month, which isn't really that great either.

I'd love to see pics documenting this. I'd also like to know what you consider a good growth rate? I have noticed that although you have requested many pics from people in this thread, you don't seem to post pics showing your results.

 

[asid61]

Most hardcore SPS people who are not interested in LED don't have one year old tanks that don't need calcium or alk supplements for their growing SPS... they have multi-year old tanks that need jugs and jugs of reactor media, 2 part, or the like. They know people nationwide that they trade limited editions with and share experiences and advice. They have the best colors imaginable, the breath and depth of knowledge and experience to know what has worked, what looks great - these are the people whom the post was referring to IMO. Who has seen hard-core TOTM quality SPS keepers running LED, or even farmers or fraggers that make a living doing this? There might be some, but not many - I have not actually seen any. Listen, LEDs work for some people, but they are no equal to other forms of lighting for these folks.

We went over this, but I'll put in all caps so you notice this time.
THE REASON TOTM AND FARMS USE METAL HALIDE LIGHTING INSTEAD OF LED IS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THEIR SETUP AND RISK LOSING MONEY.
Not usually because they tried led and left.
No, it's because a few people screw up with led and ruin it for everybody. So everybody says, "it's not there yet" when in fact a lot of it is there. It is valid to keep your MH lighting if you used it for years and years, but for many new people, led is available.

On my first saltwater reef tank, I used MH, but had incredibly poor husbandry practices. Did my SPS thrive? Nope. Died in two days. Did I blame it on the lighting? No. But that's the argument people use for leds.

"I switched from MH to LED on my second tank, and now my corals grow! MH is just not there yet, IME."