Open letter to the LED industry

[gcarroll]

Your corals growth is nice, I could say - middle average Are feeding them? What is your ca/kh level?
As it was written in this thread, light isnt only one important factor affecting corals growth.
Water quality(stable parameters), additional feeding and micro/macro elements supplementation also decide how fast your corals will growth.

I found some pictures from our test tank(with grow progres) which was lighted by our T5 LED Tubes - combo 1:1(blue:white - but white with GREEN tint)
PS Norther Star 22W and PS SW 22W - total 10pcs.
Last photo (withotu mark) was did on 6th June 2009 year. So - you can see that we are on LED market since almost 5 years(that tank grotwh from small frags) - I dont know how many companies have similar experiences in LED aquarium industry.. ;-)

and full tank shot(from left side)

next photo one month later:

picture crop:

Should I call BS on this growth? For the last 2 weeks you guys have provided all this evidence showing that white LEDs are junk. Now you show us a beautiful tank with awesome growth and expect us to beleive that this is for real. You guys in Europe really know how to argue. I think we should just bow out and let you argue with yourselves.

BTW, those corals with 1:1 W;B LED look a whole lot healthier than the others you have posted with you new lighting. Ever thought of going back to the 1:1 W:B ratio? These pics would sure sell them.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

"I switched from MH to LED on my second tank, and now my corals grow! MH is just not there yet, IME."

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Should I call BS on this growth? For the last 2 weeks you guys have provided all this evidence showing that white LEDs are junk. Now you show us a beautiful tank with awesome growth and expect us to beleive that this is for real. You guys in Europe really know how to argue. I think we should just bow out and let you argue with yourselves..

I would be most obliged if you show me where I wrote that white LED lights are junk.
How would you noticed, we produce both lamps models - which use white LEDs (R-series) as well as those that do not use (spectrum "white" is made up of a multi color dedicated LED chips - S series). So the user can choose the "path" that will follow.
I think that maybe you should read again what I wrote - in particular, to "stimulate" the pigments which are still under LED lamps LED with a typical configuration was hard to get (which does not mean that corals do not grow a certain color - NOT ALL - was fairly easy to achieve)
Thank you.

 

[jda]

I am one of these people, I talk to these people and I am friends with these people. I have used Razor, SOL and Kessil and they were a joke for me. More than half of my friends have tried too - most have multiple tanks and plenty of money and have tried LEDs and were EXTREMELY disappointed. Of course they didn't switch out any displays or vats without experimenting. The smart ones never tried. The best thing that I can say about the fixtures that I had is that I was able to sell them for every penny that I bought them for after 3-4 months.

Call up these guys and have some conversations with them and you will get different answers than "I am not switching because some noobie on a message board with a bio cube screwed up and blew out his frags on his 2 month old tank and left the whole industry in ruin so I will not consider it." Heat a big issue for some - not so much electricity - and you better believe that they would switch if it IS THERE. These guys are driven by PERSONAL results, are smart enough to know what is up, have experience to compare it to and NOT effected by a few or even the masses, so don't think for a minute that some anecdotal posts from anonymous users on a message board would keep them from advancing.

I get that they work for some people. I also get that different people have different definitions of "work" and "success."

 

[sanababit]

I am one of these people, I talk to these people and I am friends with these people. I have used Razor, SOL and Kessil and they were a joke for me. More than half of my friends have tried too - most have multiple tanks and plenty of money and have tried LEDs and were EXTREMELY disappointed. Of course they didn't switch out any displays or vats without experimenting. The smart ones never tried. The best thing that I can say about the fixtures that I had is that I was able to sell them for every penny that I bought them for after 3-4 months.

Call up these guys and have some conversations with them and you will get different answers than "I am not switching because some noobie on a message board with a bio cube screwed up and blew out his frags on his 2 month old tank and left the whole industry in ruin so I will not consider it." Heat a big issue for some - not so much electricity - and you better believe that they would switch if it IS THERE. These guys are driven by PERSONAL results, are smart enough to know what is up, have experience to compare it to and NOT effected by a few or even the masses, so don't think for a minute that some anecdotal posts from anonymous users on a message board would keep them from advancing.

I get that they work for some people. I also get that different people have different definitions of "work" and "success."

Altough i believe you and your friends did not have succes using led, i will take this as your experience with this lights, as others have been succesful, i will take their experiences in account, BUT the only way to be sure is if i test them, so bottom line is, take opinions for what they are, make educated choices, take a leap of faith, and try them out, it might be surprised and be the lucky few that has great looking corals with leds

Sana

 

[nickdo]

Should I call BS on this growth? For the last 2 weeks you guys have provided all this evidence showing that white LEDs are junk. Now you show us a beautiful tank with awesome growth and expect us to beleive that this is for real. You guys in Europe really know how to argue. I think we should just bow out and let you argue with yourselves.

BTW, those corals with 1:1 W;B LED look a whole lot healthier than the others you have posted with you new lighting. Ever thought of going back to the 1:1 W:B ratio? These pics would sure sell them.

OMG, There is only one said that White LED are junk... and he don't have scientific research supported for his statement. Do u really read it all?

 

[nickdo]

I am one of these people, I talk to these people and I am friends with these people. I have used Razor, SOL and Kessil and they were a joke for me. More than half of my friends have tried too - most have multiple tanks and plenty of money and have tried LEDs and were EXTREMELY disappointed. Of course they didn't switch out any displays or vats without experimenting. The smart ones never tried. The best thing that I can say about the fixtures that I had is that I was able to sell them for every penny that I bought them for after 3-4 months.

Call up these guys and have some conversations with them and you will get different answers than "I am not switching because some noobie on a message board with a bio cube screwed up and blew out his frags on his 2 month old tank and left the whole industry in ruin so I will not consider it." Heat a big issue for some - not so much electricity - and you better believe that they would switch if it IS THERE. These guys are driven by PERSONAL results, are smart enough to know what is up, have experience to compare it to and NOT effected by a few or even the masses, so don't think for a minute that some anecdotal posts from anonymous users on a message board would keep them from advancing.

I get that they work for some people. I also get that different people have different definitions of "work" and "success."

I know what u mean. You might believe until you visit a guy success with LED.
That's reasonable when all your experienced friends are unhappy with LED.

But I can tell you that in my local communities, there are 80% people using led, some of their tanks are even comparable or better than many TOTM.

 

[asid61]

I am one of these people, I talk to these people and I am friends with these people. I have used Razor, SOL and Kessil and they were a joke for me. More than half of my friends have tried too - most have multiple tanks and plenty of money and have tried LEDs and were EXTREMELY disappointed. Of course they didn't switch out any displays or vats without experimenting. The smart ones never tried. The best thing that I can say about the fixtures that I had is that I was able to sell them for every penny that I bought them for after 3-4 months.

Call up these guys and have some conversations with them and you will get different answers than "I am not switching because some noobie on a message board with a bio cube screwed up and blew out his frags on his 2 month old tank and left the whole industry in ruin so I will not consider it." Heat a big issue for some - not so much electricity - and you better believe that they would switch if it IS THERE. These guys are driven by PERSONAL results, are smart enough to know what is up, have experience to compare it to and NOT effected by a few or even the masses, so don't think for a minute that some anecdotal posts from anonymous users on a message board would keep them from advancing.

I get that they work for some people. I also get that different people have different definitions of "work" and "success."

The SOL and Kessil are bad, but the Razor is pretty good. How do you know that it was the light, and not the keeper, that did it? Or even too much light? Leds are very powerful, and if not dimmed, can be detrimental to the tank. That would be another reason why people don't have success. I know from my experience that it does work, and I have used high-quality Rebel ES and lower-quality Aquastyle leds. If your friends and you failed with leds, it's not because the Razor is not good- it's because you, like many others, forgot to dim. Heck, I fried my macros the first time I turned on my leds. I couldn't save my beautiful liagora from death. But when I moved my lights a few inches up, the rest of my macros recovered.

EDIT: I apologize. There could be any number of reasons leds didn't work for you, and I got a little carried away in my protectiveness of leds. Each person has their choice, and MH and T5 are definitely proven technologies.
Let's keep the Led vs. MH vs. T5 debate outside this thread, so we can work on improving leds to the point where they hit the spectral peaks dead-on.

 

[jda]

...a very good idea.

I still have a question that is on the first page of this thread. Why can coral take par levels over 1000 with MH and much higher with sunlight, but LED offer "too much" light at much lower levels? It seems that Vannyppt has a good observation and is asking a good question - there is too much of something bad, so what is it? He proposed white light. Perhaps. ...but if not, what is it? Infrared, radio? How do you fundamental get away from the point that coral that will flourish under lots more of good light will not do well under half or less levels of LED? IMO, as soon as this is recognized (maybe a few more years) and understood (who knows), the sooner that progress can be made.

 

[gcarroll]

OMG, There is only one said that White LED are junk... and he don't have scientific research supported for his statement. Do u really read it all?

Yes, and that was primarily directed at the one who made those statements.

The post was meant to be sarcasm. I am actually happy that Pacific Sun RD posted those pics. It shows that even the 1:1 W:B lighting can maintain a beautiful SPS system. Vannpytt seems all over the boards recommending Pacific Sun RD fixtures and claiming all others are vastly subpar because of their use of white LEDs. I call him out for being flat out wrong. Why has Pacific Sun RD done the same? Could it be because of all the recomendations they get out of him to many posts regarding different LED brands?

I don't have anything against Pacific Sun RD's posts nor their products but if we are having a discussion, I want those involved to share knowledge and not just make the thread an infomercial! I want all the LED companies involved in a thread like this. There is a lot of knowledge that they can share as well as a lot of knowledge that we as hobbyists have that they can learn from.

They had great success with 1:1 W:B lighting.

Was I wrong in stating that the corals under the 1:1 W:B lighting look healthier than their pics of corals under their current lighting?

So how valid is the info presented in their fancy complicated graphs and data? I have to question it!

 

[gcarroll]

...a very good idea.

I still have a question that is on the first page of this thread. Why can coral take par levels over 1000 with MH and much higher with sunlight, but LED offer "too much" light at much lower levels? It seems that Vannyppt has a good observation and is asking a good question - there is too much of something bad, so what is it? He proposed white light. Perhaps. ...but if not, what is it? Infrared, radio? How do you fundamental get away from the point that coral that will flourish under lots more of good light will not do well under half or less levels of LED? IMO, as soon as this is recognized (maybe a few more years) and understood (who knows), the sooner that progress can be made.

But how can you say this after the pictures that Pacific Sun RD posted? That tank shows a beautiful SPS tank with what we call a horrible ratio of white:blue, and not much of it either. If it were a problem with LEDs they we should have no successes right?

 

[nynick]

Regarding the white led I can tell you what happened in my tank. I have a mix of 2 whites, blue, red, green and UV. Blue and UV on one channel and the rest on the other.

When I made the switch from MH to LED I tried my best to mimic the old look and intensity. I doubt that I succeeded to perfection but it was reasonably close. I slowly raised both channels and after a few weeks both my clams retracted their mantles into the shell. The Crocea was totally retracted and I could see small greyish spots forming inside it. The Deresa was partially retracted but otherwise it looked fine.

After a spout with an ongoing mystery algae problem I turned the white channel off for about a week. By the end of that week the algae problem was still there but I noticed my clams were coming out. I now run the white/color channel at roughly 20% vs 50ish before and both clams are doing great, many softies and Zoas also look much healthier and has increased growth rate by a LOT! Mushrooms that were previously marching across the tank to find shade is now out in the open again, at least in the lower areas of the tank. I later increased the blue/UV channel from roughly 60ish% to 100% and this does not seem to bother anything.

I highly doubt that whites are useless but perhaps over rated? I also very much doubt that the red, green and UV are useless as I have seen some people claim. If nothing else my tank looks a hell of a lot better than the ones lacking them and that is actually very important.

 

[Allmost]

if anyone wants my "scientific study" about white LED, let me know. lol

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@gcarrol
You take on a very superficial. Please read carefully what I wrote a few posts above.
The use of a standard 1:1 combo lamp provides a nice growth (which has been proven by many users LED lights) but does not ensure "build" all expected pigments (some of them just are not present).
In addition, quite important fact in the whole affair is WHAT type of white LEDs was used - not just their color temperature - but their TINT (the direction of the axis color).
Based on these experiments (measurements of lights) and this LED characteristics(Color temperature) we were able to draw some conclusions as to the ideal (in our opinion)light - the way how it should be built, which affects the coloration of corals and their growth.
Corals that are nicer to you (look healthier) for me personally, as a hobbyist - certainly look nice, but they are not any spectacular achievement - it's just the color of the coral is less pastel - as a result of an increased qty symbiotic algal cell numbers in coral tissue .
Similar like in using warm metal halide and an additional actinic tubes.
The colors will be, but the color of the coral would be "subdued" by the symbiotic algae cells.
I am very pleased that our aquarium test(2009) with the LED lighting 1:1 loved you - but for me (as aquarist also) these colors may not be 100% satisfied and we expect better results - because achieving results in the pictures from the SMT matrix is IMHO much more difficult than the effects that we achieved in our T5 LED fixtures(which, moreover, has so far offered a series of lamps R). With our lamps its really not difficult to achieve this effect, believe me - we were able to do that as early as 2009 ...
Therefore, we take a step forward. I do not understand why this kind of "progress" is the goal of your criticism, disbelief and sarcasm.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

But how can you say this after the pictures that Pacific Sun RD posted? That tank shows a beautiful SPS tank with what we call a horrible ratio of white:blue, and not much of it either. If it were a problem with LEDs they we should have no successes right?

Do you know which PAR was 10cm under water level?
Im sure that not.
Did you saw that formosa growth up to water level?
Why it wasnt "burned"? We know that - we checked light condition in that and many other test tanks.. We not only try to make nice looking(for our eyes) lights - but we try to make light the best for corals growth and pigment intensify.
You dont know also what kind of white leds(maybe more green or red - depending of TINT) we used - and there was Royal Blue(450nm) or Blue used(475nm)?.. We know that - and if you will check our SMT matrix - you will understand why we used so many "not popular" LED chip colors.. Not "popular" - but which give effect which we expected..
Of course, I will not say you that(it would be unwise to share the results of many years of experience) but really in this thread I said a lot of things, that until now has probably never been discussed in similar threads (certainly by anybody from "aquatic LED industry")
This will be in my opinion the best and unique proof.

 

[jda]

But how can you say this after the pictures that Pacific Sun RD posted? That tank shows a beautiful SPS tank with what we call a horrible ratio of white:blue, and not much of it either. If it were a problem with LEDs they we should have no successes right?

I am not on the too much white light bandwagon - I am not smart enough to know if it anywhere near correct. It could be. It might not be. I also think that there are issues that are either known and not spoken about, or unknown, because these same coral can take as much of the other kinds of lights that you can throw at them. Why doesn't this work with LED? There is something here. Solve this and some major strides might be made.

I do think success=perfection is a bad paradigm - there have been successes with sea-clone skimmers and tap-water-only-tanks. I am not putting LED on those levels, but the problems = no successes is a bad argument... heck people have had success with Windows OS for years and years.

 

[wildman926]

Of course, I will not say you that(it would be unwise to share the results of many years of experience) but really in this thread I said a lot of things, that until now has probably never been discussed in similar threads (certainly by anybody from "aquatic LED industry").

Very true. I, for one, appreciate it very much.

 

[senne76]

How do you anti-whiteled guys explain the triton lani led? It also uses a 1:1 white:rb and have you seen the corals under that light?

 

[Big E]

...a very good idea.

I still have a question that is on the first page of this thread. Why can coral take par levels over 1000 with MH and much higher with sunlight, but LED offer "too much" light at much lower levels? It seems that Vannyppt has a good observation and is asking a good question - there is too much of something bad, so what is it? He proposed white light. Perhaps. ...but if not, what is it? Infrared, radio? How do you fundamental get away from the point that coral that will flourish under lots more of good light will not do well under half or less levels of LED? IMO, as soon as this is recognized (maybe a few more years) and understood (who knows), the sooner that progress can be made.

Basically because the spectrum is wrong. Too much of a good thing can fry a coral. It's not that LEDs are too intense but at the wrong spectrum they can be deadly. The coral basically implodes.

A light bulb has a smoother spectrum combined in it. In leds each diode casts a tighter beam, and also a limited spectrum.

The conundrum is that an Led unit has to cast the correct spectrum & intensity for all coral pigments we keep. It also has to be smooth as far as casting the light. Growth isn't so much an issue as color. On top of that, it has to look bright enough for our viewing. Combining these all together isn't easy, especially with some of the limitations of the actual diodes.

In a perfect world an LED unit should have the correct spectrum at 100%intensity(full on)..............the corals will take as much par as they do from the sun or the bulbs we use if the spectrum is correct to cover most pigments. Then it would only be a matter of raising or lowering the LED unit like we do with bulbs now.

Most LED units change spectrum when they are dimmed or raised. They don't take the same spectrum and dim/raise that spectrum. Every time anything is dimmed/raised the actual overall spectrum changes. There are a handful on the market now that claim they can keep the spectral graph the same and adjust the intensity.

All those controls on LED units are like giving one of those adjustable golf clubs to a 30 handicap golfer. 95% of the people have no clue what type of spectrum they're casting onto their tank, not to mention very few understand what's actually happening.

Each Led product has different strings & designs of grouped diodes and which are raised or dimmed to add more confusion.

There's also an issue with light coverage. Most people stretch the units capability too wide trying to save $. They don't have enough units over their tank. So they play with those adjustments......again at the expense of the corals.

If you look at most LED tanks that have some level of success they tend to have a lot better full coverage, usually that means enough units for their tank to overlap and hit corals from more than one side. There aren't any light gaps or shadows.

I started this thread a year ago..........there's a ton of good information and links. Some of what I have in that thread is what the Pac Sun rep has shared.
All the facts are there if people want to take the time to understand.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810

The current commercial units are getting better and closer to what needs to be done, but not quite yet there from what I have seen. Of course every person has a different level of satisfaction or needs, so there are going to be different opinions.

 

[jda]

A light bulb has a smoother spectrum combined in it. In leds each diode casts a tighter beam, and also a limited spectrum.

Is it even possible for these tight beamed limited spectrum single units to work together in cohesion to provide optimum results, or will this eventually lead to a single LED that can provide the whole spectrum?