glassbox-design
New member
corals do get C from their zoox but we are talking system or water levels here where C has a larger effect on bacs...which in turn feeds corals. our tanks are C and N limited.
"pastel" colors vs. deep dark coloring
- Thread starter jpierson77
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stony_corals
New member
So adding sugar to pappone is more for the bacteria cultures rather than the corals?!?
Again, I don't think our tanks are N limited. Delbeek has shown that there are significant amounts of DON relative to NSW levels, even when employing a Jaubert plenum/sand bed.
Again, I don't think our tanks are N limited. Delbeek has shown that there are significant amounts of DON relative to NSW levels, even when employing a Jaubert plenum/sand bed.
glassbox-design
New member
Yes C dosing is too feed bacs and adjust the cnp.
here is a basic outline...
adjusts cnp > bacs use up C > bacs multiply > eat up no3 and po4 > feed corals.
Very few run plenums, many of those with low nutrient tanks run SSB or BB due to flow. but yes our tanks are N limited as are coral reefs in the ocean...there is organic and inorganic nitrogen.
meso if you read this feel free to add your two cents. you're always terrific at bridging the science-hobby gap. i have a hard time expressing these nerdy things as they are already difficult to understand.
here is a basic outline...
adjusts cnp > bacs use up C > bacs multiply > eat up no3 and po4 > feed corals.
Very few run plenums, many of those with low nutrient tanks run SSB or BB due to flow. but yes our tanks are N limited as are coral reefs in the ocean...there is organic and inorganic nitrogen.
meso if you read this feel free to add your two cents. you're always terrific at bridging the science-hobby gap. i have a hard time expressing these nerdy things as they are already difficult to understand.
jpierson77
New member
I re-blended my pappone to get finer particles but i still get a lot that are about the size of say cyclopeze, is this ok? I did not put in any nori or red algea, is this a bad thing?
Like Eric said, the Carbon source is only there to support the bacteria. This to make sure that you don't elevate P and N levels while feeding this. On the other hand, the bacteria also feed the coral. Adding C can be described as indirect feeding.
With my nitrates and phosphates both 0, using carbon and GFO, I think I have a N poor system. Of course this tests are only indications.
Leonardo
glassbox-design
New member
jpierson-i dont think it will be the end of the world...but not the best either. try it out first and then modify it if you see fit.
Just an observation-
2 feedings ago I used Rods Food for Pappone and saw a pretty simmilar result. Last night I mixed a little bit of Rods with Pappone and the PE was the best I've seen yet.
eric
Just an observation-
2 feedings ago I used Rods Food for Pappone and saw a pretty simmilar result. Last night I mixed a little bit of Rods with Pappone and the PE was the best I've seen yet.
eric
stony_corals
New member
But NH3, NH4, NO2, NO3 aren't the only forms of N in our tanks... Those are inorganic only, again, defering tto Delbeeks lab tested showed a system at the waikiki that had high levels of DON (dissolved organic nitrogen) relative to NSW, but below NSW levels of many inorganic N sources (NO3 was one of them).
Eric, all systems can maintain nutrient poor systems, whether Jaubert plenum, DSB, BB, etc. That wouldn't be a factor, in fact the surface area of a DSB/Jaubert plenum would, hypothetically, be better for a bacteria dependent system: more surface area to culture bacteria.
glassbox-design
New member
stony-
I'm sure there are tanks out there that arent nitrogen limited but they also probably have elevated levels of po4. nitrogen limitation is a concern in low nutrient tanks that many sps keepers are after.
there are numerous studies that clearly state many coral reefs are nitrogen limited. i dont have the time to post links to the article but I am sure a simple google or "nitrogen limitation reef" will pull up studies backing up what I am saying. Please read the articles posted by meso on the other forum so you can get an understanding of what we are talking about here...i dont know about know what delbeek posted but I think we are talking about 2 different creatures here.
fwiw, plenums would not be much better to foster bac growth as we are talking bacterioplankton in the water column. Past a couple inches it becomes anerobic and is useless to the bacs we are after to eat nutrients.
hth,
eric
I'm sure there are tanks out there that arent nitrogen limited but they also probably have elevated levels of po4. nitrogen limitation is a concern in low nutrient tanks that many sps keepers are after.
there are numerous studies that clearly state many coral reefs are nitrogen limited. i dont have the time to post links to the article but I am sure a simple google or "nitrogen limitation reef" will pull up studies backing up what I am saying. Please read the articles posted by meso on the other forum so you can get an understanding of what we are talking about here...i dont know about know what delbeek posted but I think we are talking about 2 different creatures here.
fwiw, plenums would not be much better to foster bac growth as we are talking bacterioplankton in the water column. Past a couple inches it becomes anerobic and is useless to the bacs we are after to eat nutrients.
hth,
eric
bureau13
New member
So for those of you using this pappone mush, how often do you feed it? I presume this is in addition to whatever you feed your fish.
Looking at the ingredients, it doesn't really seem much different than if I put some Megamarine or Ocean Nutrition Forumula cubes in a blender and added some sugar for the carbon source. Are these "prepackaged" frozen foods inherently less nutritious for some reason?
jds
Looking at the ingredients, it doesn't really seem much different than if I put some Megamarine or Ocean Nutrition Forumula cubes in a blender and added some sugar for the carbon source. Are these "prepackaged" frozen foods inherently less nutritious for some reason?
jds
glassbox-design
New member
lets try and keep this thread on topic...pastel vs. dark colors. for specific questions about the pappone read up and post on the italian thread.
stony_corals
New member
eric, yeah, I'm not saying that coral reefs aren't nitrogen limited. what I'm saying is that it's not accurate to say that our tanks are nitrogen limited. We don't have test kits that measure DON (or any other organics such as organic PO4s). The only data I've seen for reef tanks was published by Delbeek for one of the waikiki aquariums. This data clearly showed that if you take into account DON, that our tanks are NOT N limited. While they may be NH3, NH4, NO2, and NO3 limited.
As far as plenums/DSBs being a better (relative) for fostering bac growth, this is the reason that the probiotic approaches such as ZEO, Ultralithe, Prodibio either have rocks or recommend sand beds... These systems add bacteria cultures and a C source to grow the cultures which ultimately become food for corals as well as consumers of nutrients such as NO3 and PO4. I'd say that this is a probiotic approach as well....
newrossman
New member
Hi,
Not sure if this helps but in a very good vid on reefvideos, he recorded a presentation of some guy (sorry no name) who stated that even when he was with the real collectors in fiji he was amazed that the same coral from same area and dive could be completly different in colour!.,
All im saying is that I think it's a mix of current/light/feeding/temp and am waiting for the research to find out which does what when for how long.
Love this post but I think we will end up with 'I did the exact same thing in my tank and the colour did'nt change!' that because all our tanks are different even 2 exactly same tanks will be different. I guess it's the joy and curse of this hobbie/passion
Ande
Not sure if this helps but in a very good vid on reefvideos, he recorded a presentation of some guy (sorry no name) who stated that even when he was with the real collectors in fiji he was amazed that the same coral from same area and dive could be completly different in colour!.,
All im saying is that I think it's a mix of current/light/feeding/temp and am waiting for the research to find out which does what when for how long.
Love this post but I think we will end up with 'I did the exact same thing in my tank and the colour did'nt change!' that because all our tanks are different even 2 exactly same tanks will be different. I guess it's the joy and curse of this hobbie/passion
Ande
REEF-DADDY
New member
You know whats funny? 2-3 years ago the "thing to do" was a fishless sps tank. Now we are looking for ways to dump more food in our tanks. 
prance1520
Member
Such is the cycle of reefkeeping....
glassbox-design
New member
Stony- It is very accurate to say that many systems such as mine are N limited. All tanks certainly arent limited, but we are in the SPS forum arent we? Most tanks that keep predominately SPS have very good means of export and area attempting to keep a low nutrient system. If you have a great tank with low nutrients and you're not getting as much growth as you think you should be getting...odds are you are nitrogen limited.
How old is this Delbek piece? From the advancement in this hobby having too low of nutrients has only been a recent problem. We didnt have the knowledge or equipment we do now 5 years ago.
Bacteria based systems such as zeo use zeolith based rocks to foster bacteria growth to then release it into the water so that it can be eaten and or skimmer out...this is why you must shake or stir the rocks on a regular basis. Despite having simmilarities prodibio is not at the same level as zeo or ultralith...apples to oranges.
For those of you doubting the effects of amino acids...
"Free amino acids exhibit anthozoan "host factor" activity: they induce the release of photosynthate from symbiotic dinoflagellates in vitro.
R D Gates, O Hoegh-Guldberg, M J McFall-Ngai, K Y Bil, L Muscatine
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1995 Aug 1;92:7430-4
Reef-building corals and other tropical anthozoans harbor endosymbiotic dinoflagellates. It is now recognized that the dinoflagellates are fundamental to the biology of their hosts, and their carbon and nitrogen metabolisms are linked in important ways. Unlike free living species, growth of symbiotic dinoflagellates is unbalanced and a substantial fraction of the carbon fixed daily by symbiont photosynthesis is released and used by the host for respiration and growth. Release of fixed carbon as low molecular weight compounds by freshly isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates is evoked by a factor (i.e., a chemical agent) present in a ho-mo-genate of host tissue. We have identified this "host factor" in the Hawaiian coral Pocillopora damicornis as a set of free amino acids. Synthetic amino acid mixtures, based on the measured free amino acid pools of P. damicornis tissues, not only elicit the selective release of 14C-labeled photosynthetic products from isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates but also enhance total 14CO2 fixation.
Source
http://hoegh-guldberg.lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:11607567"
Pappone and AA's provide N with a little bit of C. This enables the corals to grow without be hindered. Think Liebigs Law of the minimum... "growth is controlled not by the total of resources available, but by the scarcest resource."
wow thats long...:eek2:
Eric
How old is this Delbek piece? From the advancement in this hobby having too low of nutrients has only been a recent problem. We didnt have the knowledge or equipment we do now 5 years ago.
Bacteria based systems such as zeo use zeolith based rocks to foster bacteria growth to then release it into the water so that it can be eaten and or skimmer out...this is why you must shake or stir the rocks on a regular basis. Despite having simmilarities prodibio is not at the same level as zeo or ultralith...apples to oranges.
For those of you doubting the effects of amino acids...
"Free amino acids exhibit anthozoan "host factor" activity: they induce the release of photosynthate from symbiotic dinoflagellates in vitro.
R D Gates, O Hoegh-Guldberg, M J McFall-Ngai, K Y Bil, L Muscatine
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1995 Aug 1;92:7430-4
Reef-building corals and other tropical anthozoans harbor endosymbiotic dinoflagellates. It is now recognized that the dinoflagellates are fundamental to the biology of their hosts, and their carbon and nitrogen metabolisms are linked in important ways. Unlike free living species, growth of symbiotic dinoflagellates is unbalanced and a substantial fraction of the carbon fixed daily by symbiont photosynthesis is released and used by the host for respiration and growth. Release of fixed carbon as low molecular weight compounds by freshly isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates is evoked by a factor (i.e., a chemical agent) present in a ho-mo-genate of host tissue. We have identified this "host factor" in the Hawaiian coral Pocillopora damicornis as a set of free amino acids. Synthetic amino acid mixtures, based on the measured free amino acid pools of P. damicornis tissues, not only elicit the selective release of 14C-labeled photosynthetic products from isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates but also enhance total 14CO2 fixation.
Source
http://hoegh-guldberg.lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:11607567"
Pappone and AA's provide N with a little bit of C. This enables the corals to grow without be hindered. Think Liebigs Law of the minimum... "growth is controlled not by the total of resources available, but by the scarcest resource."
wow thats long...:eek2:
Eric
stony_corals
New member
Eric, Delbeeks info is new. It's in the latest Reef Aquarium, again, it's a semi-open system with a strong downdraft on it, as well as a plenum. Have you tested your tank for DON? The only way to accurately say that is if you had your tank water sample sent to a lab, and if so, I'd be really interested in where you sent it. There are no test kits on the market for DON, and therefore this important source of N is an unknown unless the water was taken out. Again, we can't be saying that our tanks our N limited if there are high levels of DON.
stony_corals
New member
I wonder how accurate it is... interesting to hear though....
