PO'd about Zoas

[mmarco]

i my self have named some zoas but that is cause i have never seen them in my life and neither has my boss who has been running a fish store for 20 + years and is a master marine biologist. so that is why i named them and even then i did not over charge for them i think i sold them for $40 for a colony. (i called them pink panthers because they were bright pink under leds)

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Mucho, my whole point is pretty things that catch the eye will catch a higher price, just like a diamond gets more than a bland stone. It is what it is. The Diamond next to the chunk of coal will catch the higher price every time. I've been in The hobby almost 5 years now and have been collecting and keeping zoas the same amount of time. It seems you get very upset about this. If you are so lucky to find these pretty little polyps all for the same price than good for you, I'm not as fortunate as you. I usually trade w others to add to my collection and I don't mind putting more out for the nicer polyps. Not just that but the ugly browns and greens spread like weeds while most of the more colorful morphs ime don't grow as quickly either, thus a higher price tag. Being they're not as obtainable. I alsol trade and give a lot and always have, just to spead the love. I'm not in this hobby for an investment, trust me, Ive dumped thousands Into this hobby and yet to see a penny of profit, lol. I trade and give away what could be my "profit". Some of us just know that the finer things in life cost more than the lesser "such as schwag brown polyps" and yes I'll pay more for a better morph of marijuana as well even though its all the same plant. If you want to trade sometime you'll find I'm very fair and not a name whore but at the same time I do see the difference between ugly browns and something like this.

Was out of town, didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

I guess we will have to respectfully agree to disagree my friend, "pretty things that catch the eye will catch a higher price".

Not sure where you got that I was upset BTW. I do vehemently disagree with gouging though as many others have stated as well in this thread. And it's not luck in finding pretty polyps, hey I think they're all pretty. You have bought into much of what you have been told, this thread is for those who choose to believe otherwise based upon all in information contained in this thread and the many links provided as proof.


MUCHO REEF

 

[MUCHO REEF]

there are old colonies that have the same color as "insert hipster name here"

most sps keepers viewed zooanthids as a pest

That is a very true statement. I was away recently and met a guy while out of town and his tank consisted of all mother colonies that he has owned for many years and he didn't know the name of a single polyp.


MUCHO REEF

 

[MUCHO REEF]

A few posts ago there was mention of the good ol' days of zoa keeping and this is something that I have thought about from time to time but I have never put much energy into finding an answer. There are those out there that could probably answer this in a few minutes and some have even participated in this thread though I doubt if they will return to help. Another reason is I doubt if anyone could provide anything other than a best guess though it probably would be in the ball park.

Here it goes:

How many color morphs were there in 1995?
2005?


Great question, just surprised there have been no replies to it. To be very very honest with you, there was a huge selection of zoanthids in 1995. Conversely speaking, there were even more in 2000, and yes, even more in 2005. However it's not the dramatic increase that is being purported by many. Marine Biologist believe only 70 % to 80 % of the oceans of the world have yet to be explored. I doubt that we'll find zoanthids at some of those depth however. I was keeping/growing them in 1995 when very few reefers I knew who considered them a weed and wouldn't go near them as their profileration was a so pronoucned and agressive, no one wanted them. I once had a photographic database of everyone I owned or ever owned which was between 350 to 400 if I remember correctly, before I lost it.

Remember names really weren't widely used and when you went to a frag swap you asked for the blue zoas, no the ones with the red too.
2013?

True, I went to a frag swap last year after not attending them anymore since the price hikes and gouging started. It was absolutely nothing at all like they use to be.

Without knowing the numbers, I bet most (almost 100%) would say that the number of morphs has increased dramatically. All that we have to do is look at some of the tanks on RC and other sites or go to an online website and click on view all and see 100+ color morphs and most of those have names.

Most of what you are seeing isn't new. You've already answered this in your paragraph below. Most of what you're seeing is the advent of LED lighting, tanks/polyps that are super saturated with actinic lighting, morphing due to tank contraints/parameters, photoshopping and digital cameras. I have actually lost count of just how many polyps I have seen with the label, "just discovered, rare, never seen before, only 10 left, LE etc etc", and these are the exact same polyps I saw 10 years ago before naming and these prices. I even corrected someone privated who claimed he had a very rare set of polyps and was asking hundreds of dollars for them. I informed him privately and respectfully that they weren't. I even sent him a time/date stamp picture to prove I owned them 7 years prior, but he wanted to leverage top dollar with a lie. Believe it or not, he maintained his claim in the name of skyhigh profits even after I proved he was wronge.

Are there more varieties today? Yes, but the same holds true for just about everything man made or not in my opinion. There aren't nearly as many new polyps has these false claims have been making. It's just more marketing slogans and claims to garner these prices many are asking.


However I wonder if we really are "œseeing" more and more on the level we think we are seeing. Again I could be completely wrong but again how would I know.

I agree with you sir.


Over the last 3 to 5 years every now and then a thread starts about a new color morph out and it being the new must have go to polyp. At some point it is pointed out that the new morph has been out since 200x or even earlier. Things die down and the hobby moves onto the next one and so on. Somewhere down the line that new must have is the same color morph that was discussed previously and was around 10 years ago.


And the next newbie who just entered the hobby will have no idea and he/she will be taken to the bank because they have been convinced that it is new, rare, and it isn't. I have seen it dozens of times. I even detailed it in one of my post a few pages back as it happened right here and Kichmark verified it. This is by no means a slam to anyone, but if someone has 2 years in the hobby, sure, most everything they see is new, rare, and that's to be expected. But if you ask some of these reefers here who have been reefing for 10, 15 or 20 years, they will tell you the complete contrary.


Yes I am sure new color morphs have been collected but what hasn't been collected in the last 5 years? People will collect whatever is hot and the businesses will sell whatever is hot for us.

Yes sir, new colors have been found, but not nearly the numbers that are being claimed. If you gave me a small healthy colony, in a couple of weeks or months I can change the appearance of said colony with tank imposed contraints. Is that a new morph? NO, it isn't. I can then shift my lighting and create another appearance. Is that a new morph? No. I could then photoshop and send it to a newbies and tell them it's rare and new, but is it really? No. I have a thread to share, gotto go find it and if I do, I'll posted it.

Again not of the answer but it would be interesting to know.


On a side note and again there are those that could answer the why question above but I know a local reefer who would buy from a wholesaler out of LA rocks with zoa colonies on them. He would get 30 to 50 pounds of rock and have 20 to 30 frags/mini colonies of 5 to 100 polyps each. He would frag a decent frag for himself, 5 to 10 polyps, and then sell similar sized frags for $20 to $40 each depending on size. Fast forward a year and he would have those for sale again.

I am sure we paid for his rock pretty quickly.

Right again


Thanks for sharing, MUCHO

 

[MUCHO REEF]

LOL like all the so call NEW morphs or new corals came from someone's tank. They were sourced from the reef by divers paid pennies to the dollar. Transhipped in bulk, cherry pickers grab the colony, chop it up, take pictures with high intense lighting (LED/ALL BLUE Lighting to highlight the colors and worse photoshop ) while using expensive lense's, post and hype on every sight or vendor appropirate sites then charge you 200-350 a single polyp because it cost nature that much. Even though the original colony cost them less then the single polyp he/she is charging. Damn natures hard work does cost a lot for those selling them. Their hard work blood sweat and tear. Cry me a FN river.

and for those that love to always justify the crazy single polyp prices with Supply and demand. SMH. Awesome when the people putting out these prices are also the ones controlling the supply. :lmao: They all benifit by keeping prices up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

If you want this kinda practice to end, STOP PAYING these crazy prices and these price gougers won't be asking for those absorbent prices and forced to drop their prices to realistic amount. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY PRICE GOUGING STOPS. No one buys, more and more vendors obtain the same piece and they charge for lower prices so that other vendors would have to keep adjusting thier prices to compete. In the end when NO ONE pays the stupid price, those zoathids/palys will over flow the market and they would be forced to drop their prices big time to move their stock. :celeb2::celeb2::celeb2: means in the end real prices for us reefers.

I am still amazed by the beliefs that supply and demand is the reason for what we are seeing and that it is still being used Chuck. ( see post # 77 and # 126)

Very factual post from beginning to end.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

For the books I don't pay any crazy prices nor sell for them. I trade most of what I get now a days and like it that way much better.

Not that everyone has to do it, but I got the most enjoyment out of shocking newbies or friends with something they liked that I had and I gave it to them with just one promise. Don't ever sell it, but give it away instead. Good for you Jeffro.

MUCHO REEFin

 

[650-IS350]

I say F IT, buy it at a grand LMAO... continue to put gold in these gougers pockets, I'll wait till its volatile stock crashes and gets the polyp for $5 or less.. or better yet get it from fellow reefers in reefclubs that give it for FREE as a pay it forward amongst fellow reefers and not to make money. and I in return do the same favor as i have done plenty of times give the polyps out for free to those that can do the same.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

On a separate note I always hear about reefers who have been in the hobby for decades talking about "the good ol days" when all these pieces cost 5 bucks for a colony. If nothing has changed but the prices and not the quality and color morphs of corals, shouldn't there be decades old massive colonies of all of the so called high ends that fetch a higher price? Or could it be that there are far more unique, drastically more colorful morphs that are avail to the hobby these days. Personally when I see someone spending their $ on things that I find absurd, I mentally acknowledge the observation and move on. But all of the reincarnations of these threads always makes for some entertaining reading. Carry on!

Hello OG, in fact I don't ever recall them being $5.00 for a colony, but I'm sure you were just being sarcastic. They were however $ 20 to $ 50 for a mature colony of just about any and everything you can possibly imagine with the with 30 to 50 polyps all day long before these names and price gouging which began in 2004. With the exception of super huge football size colonies which were slightly more, this is what we all paid for them for many many many years. My friend nothing ,absolutely nothing has changed other than these skyhigh prices and price gouging which created demand. Not becuase more reefers wanted to keep zoas and palys, but because of their profitability. I answered this above when I stated this fact. There are more of most everything man made or dicovered then last year and the year before and the same will be true next year. Are you saying we have "better quality" zoanthids throughout the hobby today then we did 8 years ago because of names, sky high prices/gouging? That simply is not true by any stretch of the imagination. Most of the skyhigh, overpriced, excessively fragged, prematurely fragged, improperly fragged, constantly up rooted and traded frags, price gouged, chop shopped and photo shopped 1 to 5 polyp frags you see most everywhere, will wither and die, become infected or never reach their full potential in the very short term.

Sir, there are massive colonies out there. This forum was full of them as well as the web. The reason you don't and won't see them in LFS is because of the very issue we are discussing in this thread. Lies, false claims of rarity, price gouging, profits, lying and marketing savy people who have convinced so many newbies that they have something extremely new, rare, priceless yadda yadda,......and they don't. Others have jumped on th gravy train and this is why you don't see mother colonies.....because they are all hacked up into 1 and 2 polyp fragged, glued to a round disc, then placed in a rectangular box. I have to ask you, who do you think coined the phrase, "high end"?


You wrote, "Or could it be that there are far more unique, drastically more colorful morphs that are avail to the hobby these days."

I have contacted many other sites and zoanthid related sites over the years and sent them many corections on these lies or rare, new, just covered, never before seen, just released, limited edition yadda yadda. I have informed many of them that what they were claiming simply was not true and have even provided time and date stamped pictures as proof. The overwhelming majority of what you see in the hobby today is common and not rare at all. It has been proven time and time and time again, yet many wish to continue to state and believe the contrary because that is what Peter the Poylp Pimp has told them to get their money. See my reply above to Kafudafish on this topic in post # 204, but sure, there are some new ones never seen before, but that has been true for everything in this hobby since I became a reefer 20 years ago.

I am glad to see and hear you state publically that these prices and lies are absurd.

"But all of the reincarnations of these threads always makes for some entertaining reading. "

My friend, every thread in this forum and every other forum is reincarnated. It's a dicussion, that's all. I am not trying to be rude to you or anyone as that's not my forte, but if one grows tired of these threads, then please look away with all due respect.

Yes, I would love to continue this discussion with you and thanks for the reply.

MUCHO REEF

 

[MUCHO REEF]

there are old colonies that have the same color as "insert hipster name here"

most sps keepers viewed zooanthids as a pest

Agreed 100% and thanks for sharing that. I wish many of the reefers from the era prior to 2004 were here as you'd hear this so much more.

MOOCH

 

[MUCHO REEF]

any one that has been in this hobby for a while, know what something is worth.

I agree with 1000% on this my friend.


MUCHO REEF

 

[MUCHO REEF]

im not defending 300$ polyps, more of the names and the goudging pokes. like i stated anyone can go elsewhere. and as for very informative, even you have to admit this is a thread for whining.lol

have you ordered a box of zoas? have you ordered a box from figi? get them and get a grant to sell them for 25cents. better yet grow them and sell them for a dollar. if you pay 350$ for a polyp your an idiot with investment ideas, and nothing more. so in most aspects you deserve it.

Hmmm, why do you call a difference of opinion based upon facts and supported by numerous people "whinning" ? Just curious.

Mooch

 

[Joshporksandwic]

With all the TV shows about saltwater tanks and shows about reefs, more and more people join the hobby than ever before. Like I stated before I've spent a lot for 1 polyp but now that I have 40+ polyp colonies I sell locally for a fraction of what I paid just like everyone that leaves my house leaves with lots of freebies. I've also gotten a lot of people (sellers) angry at me for my prices lol. This is going to continue happening for a while all we can do is try to be the ones that change.

Now I try to trade for all my high end stuff. It's easier now that my tank is getting full and everything is grown but i remember when i was starting how happy I used to get to get a baby out of a $80 zoa or see encrusting on that $100 acro frag. Just like old fogies can't fathom paying $40 for 1 polyp frag(or even $40 for a whole colony)

I see both sides and they're both right but this hobby is growing very fast lets keep trying to help people and not drive them away with arguments.

PS. Mucho i want lots of freebies where do i sign the no sale policy?????

 

[calistyle]

I think rare zoa's are appealing for a few reasons.

1) You get something not widely available
2) Something that you truely enjoy (colors, etc)
3) Return investment

#3 is very important. If you buy something that is rare, popular people will be in line to take frags off your hands. In the end, you're left with some nice zoa's and have paid for themselves.

If you get a common zoa cheap in LFS, you have next to no chance of resale. The return comes if you have something the LFS charges 30-50.00 per polyp and can sale/trade for 1/2 that price.

That said, for me I treat Zoa's like baseball cards. Pass on the standard, collect the cool/rares ones and trade with other hobbists.

 

[650-IS350]

3) Return investment

I thought this was a hobby not a business???

 

[calistyle]

I thought this was a hobby not a business???

It is, which is why I only have a 34G Solana.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to collect widely desired zoa's to get a return. It doesn't have to be $$, often would be trade for other cool zoa's.

But if you get a sweet zoa and take the time to grow it out, what's wrong with getting a little return on your initial investment? Especially if your saving someone from getting riped at LFS.

 

[650-IS350]

I understand what your saying, but there are differences for being a hobbyist and it being done with intent for investment/monetary income. ( Just my opinion ). But no issue with people making side money for upkeep on tanks and buying corals. Not saying you are but hope you get what im saying LOL

I'm down to a 37 gal my self, I used to have a 100gal, 37gal and 20. I don't sell, I give away or pass it as DBTC to fellow reefers in my area or members of reefclub.

 

[calistyle]

Yeah, unfortunitely for me all I seem to do is spend, spend and spend.

And to be honest I have purchased a few mis lableled zoa's already.

 

[650-IS350]

Sorry to hear about that bud.

If in doubt of id always post here, some of us can help =)

 

[Joshporksandwic]

I thought this was a hobby not a business???

It's not a business but it's nice if things get tough you can get some $ back! In my job from november to december it's dead and I sold a few things for a little extra cash. Most people do it for the joy of seeing something in your care grow and for people to tell you how awesome it looks but also most people that purchase a high end piece buys it in mind that if I ever sell I wont loose much or make more.

 

[Pallobi]

I've also gotten a lot of people (sellers) angry at me for my prices lol.

This has happened to me... And to be honest, I find it disgusting... Locals and other club members (sorry guys but its true, and I've actually been told this)... I've been told through texts, emailed, and pm's, as well as in person about how I'm selling too cheap, drivin down the market, and under cutting into people's profits (which are pathetically minuscule, if that, I'm sure)... My only real goal, is to have a beautiful collection, and spread the love... Cuz it's what I do

Alot of the locals and folks in my area/clubs won't sell to me... It's too bad really, I've only hooked people up and have been generous to others... But no worries, it might take me a little longer to build up my reef, but I'll get there jus the same