Pukani Rock leacing PO4 like mad

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

http://www.amazon.com/Hanna-Instrum..._2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1332509315&sr=1-2

Hanna Phosphate is "0.00 to 2.50 ppm (mg/L) with precision + or - 0.04 ppm (mg/L)"
Hanna Phosphorus is ""0 to 200 ppb with precision + or - 5% ppb"

So ppm vs ppb, parts per million/billion? How would this compare to the API phosphate test I am currently using? I am getting a reading of 1.0ppm with my 20lbs of Pukani. Wouldn't 1ppm equal .001ppb?

1 ppm = 1000 ppb, but it is more complicated than that. The Hanna 736 reads in ppb phosphorus. Probably they did that to make it seem even more accurate than it really is. You need to multiply phosphorus readings by 3.07 to get phosphate.

So 5 ppb phosphorus (from the HI736, for example) = 5 x 3.07 /1000 = 0.015 ppm phosphate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Response from HANNA

"ME"

Can the Hanna HI 93713 detect PO4 in RO/DI water or tap water?

"HANNA"

Richie,

Yes, as long as your expect result is greater than the meters accuracy.


Accuracy ±0.04 mg/L plus ±4% of reading

If you are thinking of the HI736 for this application, you might specifically ask about that one in fresh water. It may be fine in fresh water, but unlike the 713, the 736 seems to specifically describe it for marine/salt water applications and does not mention other uses:

http://hannainst.com/literature/HI736_Layout 1.pdf

 

[tmz]

When I add lanthamum chloiride to the 20 gallon curing bin filled with salt water,I use to hold rock leaching phosphate, a dose of 5 to 10ml SeaKlear daily has been sufficient to drop and maintain PO4 in the water at low levels. After about 2 weeks the leaching stops . When the water shows no rise in PO4 from a baseline of .05ppm or so for a week without dosing ,I'm ready to use it. I do not know the relative lanthanum chloride concentrations in PhosFree and Seaklear so you may need more PhosFree. I use salt water from the start to give time for the nitrogen cycles and organics degradation.

 

[Barrier Grief]

If you are thinking of the HI736 for this application, you might specifically ask about that one in fresh water. It may be fine in fresh water, but unlike the 713, the 736 seems to specifically describe it for marine/salt water applications and does not mention other uses:

http://hannainst.com/literature/HI736_Layout 1.pdf

I own a 736 and asked Hanna about it's use in FW before I bought it - was told it will not work correctly in FW, only in SW. All that being said, I tried it in FW for kicks and it seems to produce believable results - my RODI reads 0, but when I contaminate it with food, it will read PO4 at believeable levels. No way to know if it is calibrated/accurate in its FW readings, but seems reasonable.

My guess is since they targeted SW apps for the 736, they did not design and/or test to confirm its function in FW, so they can't claim it's use in FW, though it seems to work fine for our typical needs/uses in FW.

 

[redsea2012]

guys, I will tell you the summry from my experince, the Phosphate level in the pukani rock is a managed thing with phosophate remover aids and GFO reactors,it's very slow to cure and the corline grows very very slowly on it,yes it's a nice looking rock but i thin next time I will to go with the dry Fiji , it cures very fast and you will have no problems with the phosphate etc. it grows coraline fast and some of it is very nice looking rocks.

 

[modulok]

I got my Hanna Checker for Phosphate yesterday.
I tested my DT and got 0.21 ppm. My cheapo API phosphate test read about 0.25 ppm.

Last week I tested my 20lbs of Pukani rock soaking in a tub with about 10 gallons of old DT saltwater. I was getting a 1.0 ppm with the API test kit the last two weeks. I will do a water change and see if it creeps up to 1.0 ppm again.

Hopefully my rock is finished leaching ammonia/phosphates after about 1.5 months of soaking.

 

[jleichtman]

I got some Pukani rock a week ago and in 72 hours of using PHOSfree my Phosphates went from 0.43 down to 0.02. I dried out my rocks as my new aquiarum won't be done until he end of the month but i'm going to fill my holding container with saltwater this time and let the rocks sit for 24hours and re-test to make sure my PO4 is under control.

I used the Hanna Checker to test using RO/DI water and not saltwater because I didn't want to waste a salt-mix when I knew I was going to be throwing out the water.

 

[SPotter]

I got some Pukani rock a week ago and in 72 hours of using PHOSfree my Phosphates went from 0.43 down to 0.02. I dried out my rocks as my new aquiarum won't be done until he end of the month but i'm going to fill my holding container with saltwater this time and let the rocks sit for 24hours and re-test to make sure my PO4 is under control.

I used the Hanna Checker to test using RO/DI water and not saltwater because I didn't want to waste a salt-mix when I knew I was going to be throwing out the water.

When you fill it back up with saltwater add a circulation pump, a heater and a piece of live rock. You will begin to cure the rock and this will speed up your cycle when your tank is ready to go. No one likes to waste salt mix but youre either going to use it now curing the rocks or probably use more during the cycle with water changes. just my .02. Good luck!

 

[SPotter]

My success update.....

My success update.....

Once again I want to thank the op for starting this thread. My pukani has been in the new tank for almost two months now and my p04 has been undetectable. I had a very small gha issue that was quickly taken care by the clean up crew I added and then whatever they didn't eat...my hippo tang, yellow tank and orange spot rabbit fish finished off the rest once they were put into the tank.

thanks again and to anyone that is reading thread now or in the future....this method works and patience is the name of the game with curing these rocks.

 

[OregonReefer2]

Wow, good looking tank!!

I'm glad this has been helpful for you.

I'm on month 9 now and haven't had a single algae issue

 

[Bugger]

what does dt stand for

 

[SPotter]

what does dt stand for

Display Tank

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TeslaReef]

Awesome thread.
My thanks to everybody's input. I have about 60lbs of Pukani, 20lbs of shelf, 20 lbs of branch and 30lbs of rubble, all from BRS.

I plan to start the LC method within a couple weeks. Only PhosFree is availbale locally and it seems people have had success with it.

I plan to to do a couple of 24 hour FW treatements then follow up with a couple of 2 to 3 week SW treatments. Then start the curing/seeding processs afterwards


My question thoigh is, do you guys vacuum out the precipitate or do water changes in between treatments?

Also, what temp do you guys "cook" your rocks during these treatments?

Thanks
Phillip

 

[SPotter]

Awesome thread.
My thanks to everybody's input. I have about 60lbs of Pukani, 20lbs of shelf, 20 lbs of branch and 30lbs of rubble, all from BRS.

I plan to start the LC method within a couple weeks. Only PhosFree is availbale locally and it seems people have had success with it.

I plan to to do a couple of 24 hour FW treatements then follow up with a couple of 2 to 3 week SW treatments. Then start the curing/seeding processs afterwards


My question thoigh is, do you guys vacuum out the precipitate or do water changes in between treatments?

Also, what temp do you guys "cook" your rocks during these treatments?

Thanks
Phillip

I didn't vacuum anything out and did water changes weekly when I would do water changes on my old tank. I would just use the water from my old tank as new water in with the rocks. I would cook them at the same temp as what a regular tank would run.

 

[Alex T.]

I know that there are many ways to skin a cat, but this whole process seems time consuming and laborious. I just took a little less than 100 pounds of live rock out of my old tank that was going to start my new build, scraped off what I could, then dumped it in a 10:1 water to bleach solution over night. By morning, everything organic was guaranteed to be dead. Then, rinse it off in RO/DI water and placed it in a 10:1 water to muriatic acid solution for less than 20 minutes. I took it out (with rubber gloves of course) rinsed it in ro/di water and placed all the rock in a cardboard box lined with newspapers and let it dry off and release any residual chlorine over the course of about 10 weeks. After that I stuck it in my new tank with dry sand, filled it up with fresh saltwater and dosed MB7 bacteria for two weeks. There was no die off and barely a diatom bloom. I never registered any ammonia, nitrite, and as of this morning there was no measurable phosphate at all in the system with a Hannah Checker.

All the curing, water changing and testing seems so tedious. Besides, with nothing organic entering the system without me introducing it, the risk of pests is minimized if all fish are put through quarantine and corals are dipped and quarantined. If you can get past the fear of working with Muriatic Acid it's smooth sailing. Clean, fresh rocks colonized only with what you intorduce. All phosphate burned off your rocks and any and all unwanted hitch hikers guaranteed dead.

 

[DNA]

Here is my view on this matter.

---

All corals take up phosphates on a small level.
Dry rock are dead corals and will include phosphates, to a very similar degree, all the way to their core.
In new tanks there is only dry rock and no phosphates in the water initially and no corals or coralline algae to absorb it from the water.
Phosphates in the dry rock mix easily with the phosphate free saltwater so leaching dry rocks are unavoidable from any source.
They have huge uncovered surface and that is part of the reason phosphates tend to rise faster with dry rock than with live rock.

Months down the road the dry rocks get covered with coralline closing off much of the bare surface from the saltwater and the leaching get's much less or becomes manageable.
At the same time corals, algae and other calcium absorbing lifeforms add in the uptake of the available phosphates from the water.

Reefers starting with dry rock should expect elevated levels of phosphates and counter them from day one with the several methods available.
Encouraging coralline algae growth could be one of the best way to get the potential problem under control since it absorbs some of the phosphates and locks the rocks.

----

I'm just a player in this hobby with good experience. I restarted my tank with dry rock a few months ago.
Some of the statements above may not be correct, but this is how I see dry rock being exactly the same quality as live rock concerning phosphates.
They are just much more exposed for the first months.

 

[Alex T.]

Here is my view on this matter.

---

All corals take up phosphates on a small level.
Dry rock are dead corals and will include phosphates, to a very similar degree, all the way to their core.
In new tanks there is only dry rock and no phosphates in the water initially and no corals or coralline algae to absorb it from the water.
Phosphates in the dry rock mix easily with the phosphate free saltwater so leaching dry rocks are unavoidable from any source.
They have huge uncovered surface and that is part of the reason phosphates tend to rise faster with dry rock than with live rock.

Months down the road the dry rocks get covered with coralline closing off much of the bare surface from the saltwater and the leaching get's much less or becomes manageable.
At the same time corals, algae and other calcium absorbing lifeforms add in the uptake of the available phosphates from the water.

Reefers starting with dry rock should expect elevated levels of phosphates and counter them from day one with the several methods available.
Encouraging coralline algae growth could be one of the best way to get the potential problem under control since it absorbs some of the phosphates and locks the rocks.

----

I'm just a player in this hobby with good experience. I restarted my tank with dry rock a few months ago.
Some of the statements above may not be correct, but this is how I see dry rock being exactly the same quality as live rock concerning phosphates.
They are just much more exposed for the first months.

DNA, I understand what you're saying, but my point is if you're going to go through the process of starting fresh with dry rock that you buy online or dry out on your deck, etc...why not kill all the phosphate laden surfaces that are causing the problem instead of waiting for them to be absorbed and leeched into saltwater or drawn out using excessive amounts of expensive phosphate removers? For a little less than $10 in muriatic acid and bleach, every organic and phosphate bound surface on live rock can be stripped away and allowed to return to the tank in a few weeks.

People hear the words acid and bleach and fear them ever getting near their aquariums. It's actually a lot safer than it appears. The amount of bound up phosphate and other organics in our live rock is absolutely staggering. I don't know what online vendors do with their dry rock, but it's not thorough, hence the phosphates others see when they introduce the dry...but not clean rock into their systems. The dead coral skeletons that some fish only tanks have interchanged by their tank maintenance company every few weeks were removed, bleached, dried out and re-introduced. Obviously these systems still have another biological filter in place, such as the outdated wet/dry systems many fish tank maintenance companies use. However, thoroughly scrubbing, and killing off all organic matter on and in the rock IMHO is the best way to avoid problems down the road if other routine maintenance tasks and reasonable stocking limits are adhered to.

 

[bertoni]

The amount of phosphate per unit volume of live rock might not be a constant from the surface to the interior. That depends on the conditions under which it grew and was handled. I don't know what percentage of rock will benefit from an acid bath, but I wouldn't make any assumptions either way.

Muriatic acid and bleach require careful handling, and that's my main worry with treating rock with them.

 

[sahin]

I acid washed my Marco Key Largo rocks. Honestly guys, it wasnt much trouble at all. Just needed to take precautions whilst handling the acid.

I dont use any GFO, nor do I use any form of carbon dosing and my phosphates are always lower than 0.01ppm.

The acid cost me £6.50 and some effort and an hour or two of my time. I have saved at least £50 a year of GFO.

Obviously if I over feed etc, phosphate levels may rise etc.

 

[Alex T.]

I acid washed my Marco Key Largo rocks. Honestly guys, it wasnt much trouble at all. Just needed to take precautions whilst handling the acid.

I dont use any GFO, nor do I use any form of carbon dosing and my phosphates are always lower than 0.01ppm.

The acid cost me £6.50 and some effort and an hour or two of my time. I have saved at least £50 a year of GFO.

Obviously if I over feed etc, phosphate levels may rise etc.

^In total agreement. Wear some rubber gloves, don't pour it in too fast and from a high distance and then pull them out after 20 minutes or so. As for the bleach, most people I'm assuming have handled bleach in their lifetime. Be careful and the rest is cream cheese.