Reeflo Orca 250

I use a brand new Dwyer RMB, completely vertical. Air hose completely sealed from pump to Dwyer adaptor. The bead does not bounce up and down that much. Measurment taken from center of bead at about 1500 elevation. Even if I took the peak bounce it would not be over 65 SCFH. Going from 60 to 90 is much more than a 10% difference.
 
The only thing I could tell you is to give Sequence a call directly to see if there could possibly be an issue with the pump. As I mentioned before, I can't speak for the new pumps, and what they should be pulling, only the AO Smith motor pumps.

Are you unsatisfied with the performance of the skimmer?
 
The only thing I could tell you is to give Sequence a call directly to see if there could possibly be an issue with the pump. As I mentioned before, I can't speak for the new pumps, and what they should be pulling, only the AO Smith motor pumps.

Hypothetically speaking, if you had no idea what the air draw was on the skimmer, would you be unsatisfied with the performance at which it is working at right now?
 
Thanks Jeremy for taking the time to respond to this thread.

The main reason I bought this skimmer was becasue of the advertised 2500+lph air draw. Am I unhappy with it's performance, no. Would I be happier if it was pulling the 2500+lph of air, yes.

Typo or whatever, I feel a bit cheated about buying this skimmer. If it was a couple hundred bucks, not so much but paying $1200 for this skimmer, I would expect it to perform darn near close to advertised specs.

Can anything be done for those that bought the skimmer and aren't happy about it not drawing the advertised air? I dunno. Perhaps the dealers could do something for those customers. Unfortunately, I didn't buy mine direct from a dealer (although it was new).
 
If anyone is not happy with this skimmer, that did buy it direct from us, just contact us at sales@premiumaquatics.com and we can work something out.

We are sorry there was a typo on the information.

Please keep in mind that the picts we adversisted showing the performance of this skimmer are all accurate. I know a lot of people are caught up in this "air draw", but just having more air into a skimmer doesn't mean it's going to perform better. I've seen many skimmer designs that have excellent air columns but just do not perform. So there are a lot of overall factors to make a skimmer work really well.

For those of you that are concerned though, just let me know.
 
In response to Jasonfrey's post...

I think that Jason now has handled it to the best of his ability, he is offering all he can at this point, take it or leave it guys. I believe the typo was an honest mistake. If everyone really wants to get more air into their skimmer, then put an alita air pump on it.
Good response Jasonfrey.
 
The fact is there is no difference in air draw from Reeflo Orca 200 to 250. Same pump + propellor + venturi =same air flow. I bought mine from another sponsor. Should I contact them or Reeflo directly?

A solution would be to come up with a venturi, needle wheel combo that can pull 90 SCFH with the new, stronger Dart Gold and offer it at no charge for those that purchased the Orca 250 and everyone stays happy.
 
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Thanks Jeremy for honestly answering our questions. I also used dwyer meter on an AO motor. I am happy with the skimmer performance because I beleive the design is great.

I just want exactly what I was promised when I bought it. I do not like that more like a 30% drop in air draw is trivialized. It is a big deal to me and I think it makes a huge difference in performance. I appreciate your offer of working something out but unfortunately from me I did not buy directly from premium.
 
Premium, another possible solution might be to add a small Alita air pump with a good easy way to add it on. Adding 700 to 1200 LPH and we would be on target. The AL 15A would add 20 LPM.
This would be the perfect solution for me.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12447686#post12447686 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cweder
The fact is there is no difference in air draw from Reeflo Orca 200 to 250. Same pump + propellor + venturi =same air flow. I bought mine from another sponsor. Should I contact them or Reeflo directly?

A solution would be to come up with a venturi, needle wheel combo that can pull 90 SCFH with the new, stronger Dart Gold and offer it at no charge for those that purchased the Orca 250 and everyone stays happy.

The airflow is not the same between the 200 and 250, I have owned both, the 250 w/ the gold pump currently. My 200 was pulling ~1280-1300 LPH, and my 250 is pulling about 2000 LPH (67 SCFH). The pump on the 200 is restricted. While the difference from the advertised price is dissapointing, it doesn't really matter considering these skimmers work so well.
 
How is the 200 restricted? Getting less air does matter. Going from 60 to 90 is a 50% increase for Orca 250, going from your 42 to 65 is even a greater increase for the Orca 200.
 
The inside of the pipe is reduced right before the pump, the 250 has it wide open.

The 250 is still pulling exactly what it was designed to pull, according to Jeremys correction on the number- his mistake is where the 2500 LPH originally came from. I am not saying it isn't dissapointing not to be pulling the advertised 2500 LPH, just that both the Orca 200 and 250 perform beautifully. Adding a differently designed impeller could also make it pull more air.
 
The inside of the pipe is reduced right before pump in the 250 too. This is the venturi, so it will pull in air.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12192533#post12192533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by klasiksb

lph is lph and SCFH is SCFH, shouldn't change from measuring device (well, I suppose slightly) but 60 SCFH to 95 SCFH is a BIG difference.

I was asked to swing by and see if there wasnt anything I could do to help you guys out with this airflow problem. Sounds like my kind of fun, although, I will admit I have never been a huge fan of the dart needlewheel pumps. I helped ER just about double the airflow on that monster 8' skimmer with the hammerhead, with suggestions to go even higher, but the motors are one of the major limitations on these pumps. So... what can we do here?

I thought I would start by reading the thread and dealing with what I see case by case.

That comment above isnt true. Yes, SCFH is SCFH and all, but our skimmers are suction fed (asperating) with a rather weak suction compared to anything industrial that many airflow meters are made for usually. As a consequence, I would discount any airflow readings made by anything smaller than a RMC (10" and expensive) series airflow meter. When you get into the 1500lph on up range, the RMB series meters (5") meters are simply too restrictive, and plumbing one in to measure airflow will kill the airflow. I had the same problem with the ATB 1500 pumps... hooked up an RMB meter and went 'this isnt 2250lph!!!', but realized quickly that simply using that meter was killing my airflow. Once I put on the RMC, it was business as usual. So when you take readings, please state what meter you are using... it could be the variable that makes all the difference. Then again, the pressure/suction on the ATB's is alot lower than the darts... they are a more flow biased design with a much lower water:air ratio (2:1 at most) compared to most needlewheels, even Red Dragons... so that could be part of it as well.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12456396#post12456396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cweder
The inside of the pipe is reduced right before pump in the 250 too. This is the venturi, so it will pull in air.

If it is not reduced right before the pump then it is at the side of the skimmer body- trust me it is reduced. That is why it has reduced air draw and draws less watts.
 
Thanks Hahn, thats a nice start. I am using the RMB Dwyer which states on the directions that it is accurate with air flow up to 1/4 inch diameter. The Dart air intake is definately smaller than this. So the RMB should be restricting to only a small degree if any.
 
It would stand to reason that there is some sort of additional restriction on the 200 motors intake beyond what the 250 has... not just the venturi, but after it. Sort of like the difference between an eheim 1260 and 1262 (or what companies like deltec do which is buy the 1260 and drill out the inlet so its the same as a 1262... making it the same pump). Otherwise, yes, they would be the identical motors.

That being said, they are identical motors from the handling capacity of the actual impeller, volute, and electrical end of things. This can actually be a bad thing, since restricting a pump is one thing, if done within reason, but restricting a pump, and then making it a needlewheel kills its power factor. Even though the RMS wattage might drop, if the pump's spin is slipping forward more due to the lowered resistance (lighter material) in the volute, the VA, or real power of the motor can slip up. This is why needlewheels run hot, and can even trigger an internal fuse. The solution is to use a larger volute than if the pump was just for water. Is there any way to put a different volute, maybe from a larger pump, onto the dart motor? Thats the way to do it... make the pump more of a flow-biased pump, and open up any restrictions. The motor will cool better then as well, and be less likely to be damaged from running in such a manner... either that, or you need some sort of phase/power factor correction circuitry going on. You dont even need to change impellers... the larger volute will allow for more air handling yet with very little additional water (sometimes less). Ahhh... why couldnt they all just be DC motors... lol.

Force feeding is possible, but only if you dont go much above the original intake of the venturi. If you raise the air too much in the venturi, you will be replacing water with air in the venturi, and the venturi will act as a valve restricting water even more. For the reasons stated in the last paragraph, this can be damaging to the motor and pump (although more so with mag-drive pumps which need the water flow for cooling as well). The motor will slip even more out of phase, and its efficiency will drop.

If you are going to force feed, you need to remove the venturi and plumb straight pipe onto the intake of the pump. You might be able to still restrict the water a little bit (depends on how much air), so you could put a valve on the inlet before you 'T' in the air, but to control the water flow, you can just add more air... more air means less water in the end. This is perhaps the best way to run these motors, because then they are less restricted. The only problem comes with the output bubbles... too much air or even too much waterflow and you pass the bubbles w/o being blended as well. The solution to this is next, but it could be considered a solution in itself.

These needlewheels arent all that great from what I have seen. But they are needlewheels after all so they have to be made a specific way sometimes. To make them more effective, the needles should be smaller, and denser. The air gets chopped up finer, and this mix can then be moved easier by the motor (multiple smaller faces of pins rather than a few larger blades). If you put air into a non-needlewheel, it will handle it, but in much lower volume. When you add more air, the blades on the impeller hit a large pocket of air as it comes in and cant really do much with it other than deal with the pressure drop. The idea of a needlewheel is partly to blend and chop, but most of that actually happens as the air/water spin around the volute before making it out. The other main part is to provide a more diffused interface/surface between the mechanical impeller and the 2-phase mixture entering the pump. By using smaller and smaller surfaces (pins), the mix gets chopped up, but is also spreads out the mechanical force of the impeller across multiple smaller surfaces which can easier deal with hitting either air or water as they spin because they are smaller and that many more of them than 4-8 large blades. There are many ways to put it, but in the end, the finer and denser the needles, the better the performance. Which leads us to mesh.

You dont have to remove the pins, but considering the design I have seen of the ReefFlo needlewheel, I would suggest interlacing some enkamat 7010 into the needlewheels. It will increase the performance of the pump by alot. If you force feed, the pump will be able to handle more air and chop it up finer. If you just run it as is... it will still improve the flow through the pump (not to mention increase the efficiency and lower how hot the motor runs). You will have to hold it on somehow... perhaps some fishing line threaded through some holes on the impeller. You dont have to go nuts with it, as you could actually make the impeller too heavy for startup (although I doubt it with this size motor), and there is a point where the density of the mesh will no longer help, but just take up volume in the impeller well that would otherwise be going towards air and water (flow). But it would help the pump 'bite' into the air & water more. You might even need to enlarge any restrictions on the intake to compensate (even the venturi) since the mesh is going to try and grab more air and water all together.
 
The body itself restricts the pump. The NW and venturi are the same on the 200 as it is on the 250. There are a few things that can be done to increase air on these skimmers and I will post my findings in the next couple of weeks. I just need to find time to mess with it.
 
Hahn- do you know of a good place to buy those Dwyer RMC meters? Id like a more accurate air reading, and would also like to accurately measure the results if I try and add some enkamat to the the impeller.
 
I bought my meters direct from Dwyer's site. You can find deals on ebay though.... just not every model you might want at any given time. Still, I found RMC 10-100 scfh models for $20 a pop on there... much better than the $80 or so that Dwyer wants.
 
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