Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[RocketSurgeon]

ok thanks a bunch, do you know what page it was on where the valve placement was?

answer below:

the best performance is going to be coming out of the tank, to the tee, straight down for a ways, then angle down through the wall. Something along these lines:

i suspect that the op is wanting the tank slammed against the wall, but i don't think in the long run that this is a good idea, as there are many reasons the need may arise to reach in behind the tank, so fwiw.

uncleof6 you are partially correct. I do want my tank close to the wall be not slammed right up next to it. I can run straight down then angle through the wall but my concern, since i have a hood over the tank, is getting to the gate valves if they are up by the sana-tees. Can i place the valves down by the sump after the pipes have gone through the wall like the in the picture you posted? Also, i thought all three pipes needed valves, in your drawing it looks like only the syphon pipe has a valve?

only the siphon requires a valve, and said valve should be near the sump when it is some distance away from display tank.

 

[Volcano1]

Finally my tank up an running using the Bean system. Looks like all of my flow is going through the siphon. I thought, maybe incorrectly, that some was to go down the open channel.Took a litle while , but got it silent now.Do I need to have ANY flow go through the open channel during normal operation?

Thanks,

Todd

 

[uncleof6]

Finally my tank up an running using the Bean system. Looks like all of my flow is going through the siphon. I thought, maybe incorrectly, that some was to go down the open channel.Took a litle while , but got it silent now.Do I need to have ANY flow go through the open channel during normal operation?

Thanks,

Todd

Yes you need flow in the open channel. Close the valve on the siphon slowly, raising the water level in the over flow box, till water just flows in the open channel. Directly from the adjustment instructions on the first page of the original thread and bean's website. Jt is not much flow, and it will stay quiet and bubble free. If it gets noisy, or you get bubbles, you went to far, back it off some.

 

[ToLearn]

I'm trying to pick an appropriate sized pump and I am not sure how much the drains can handle. Hope someone can help. The tank is 300g and the sump is 40g.(well there are multiple utility tanks that house skimmers and what not, but the lower most tank, true sump, is 40g)

There are four bulk heads I can work with for drains in the bottom of an oceanic sump. Two are 1" and two are 3/4" bulk heads. I was thinking of setting it up pretty much the same way as Beans three 1", but using the two 3/4" as emergency stand pipes.

Unfortunately this tank is set in place, in wall and filled with corals and fish, there will be no drilling of more holes.

Using the calculator on beans site I figured:
On a 1" bulk head with an internal diameter of 1.033" with a Submerged Siphon Discharge at 49" head hight
42.36 gpm
2541.63 gph

The height height the pump would have to push would be 6'1".

I am looking at either the ReefFlo Snapper Gold Pump which at 7' does 1500gph. Sound like the one?

Before this gets buried can someone agree this is the pump best suited for the job?

BeanAnimal would you agree?

 

[uncleof6]

I have been leaving this one alone... although flow wise vs plumbing size is fine, (for the 1" anyway-- the 3/4" is useless) I think you are hunting elephants with spit wads and a straw. I would not use anything less than a Barracuda, and 1.5" - 2" plumbing, regardless of the size of the pre-drilled holes-- or the amount of modification/work needed.

The battle is not with you, or others in similar situations. It is with the folks building these tanks, and punching puny holes (not to mention fractional size) in big tanks. Good grief Charlie Brown........

In that context, I cannot agree.

 

[teesquare]

ToLearn:
I couldn't agree more with Uncleof6.
While I understand your dilema - with the tank setup and running, I could not recommend the pump, and the small plumbing as what you are considering for a reef. It will demand so many powerheads in the tank to provide adequate water movement, that I beleve you will be very frustrated due to the cost, and maintenance of them. As well, you will have to see many/most or all of them.
There may be otehr approaches that will work - But everything I think of, will require drilling the tank.
Best of Luck
T

 

[ToLearn]

I personally think you are crazy to rely on your return pump as the only water mover in a tank. That was would be inefficient not to mention pointless to have that much flow going through the filtration and heaters.

This tank will have two Vortex MP60s and a closed loop.

Setting aside the fact that the people who made the tanks screwed up and don't know what they are doing as far as building, "reef ready" tanks. Just wanted to make sure I was pushing as much flow as I could threw those puny little holes safely.

The other option is I could leave it how it is now with the largerst coralife pump made a 15g wet dry sump, two 3/4" feed lines and two 1" durso drains. Any think that is the way to go? :wildone:

 

[teesquare]

I personally think you are crazy to rely on your return pump as the only water mover in a tank. Well - thanks for your complimentary style! I never said your return pump should be your ONLY source of water movement. But if you can be a bit more open minded - you may actually consider another, separate pump, in conjunction with somehting like an OM-4. That was would be inefficient Actually...not all, if you consider more than just the sum of electrical consumption. Think long term: durability, service-ability, and real water movement; I own Tunzes, and MP-40's, but they do not move water the same way as a closed loop pump. They are useful, indeed - but not a replacement, in a 300 gallon tank. I am only offering my experience here.not to mention pointless to have that much flow going through the filtration and heatersCan you explain at what speed heat exchange takes place with a heater? Or at what rate waste particles or molecules - your choice - are able to be dealt with effectively? Bearing in mind, of course, that there *is* more than one sump design available to a thinking person!:wave:.

This tank will have two Vortex MP60s and a closed loopAnd that sounds like a start of a good plan..

Setting aside the fact that the people who made the tanks screwed up and don't know what they are doing as far as building, "reef ready" tanks. Yep...sounds like it Just wanted to make sure I was pushing as much flow as I could threw those puny little holes safely.

The other option is I could leave it how it is now with the largerst coralife pump made a 15g wet dry sump, two 3/4" feed lines and two 1" durso drains. Any think that is the way to go? If you measure the drain back from yout tank, before you size your sump, it will better equip you with the knowledge of what the minimum size sump should be. Thta is basing the sizing on only one of several perameters tho. You need to consider the evaporation rate, and the accesability to the sump, and whether the skimmer you will be using is to be an external, or an internal one. :wildone:

 

[uncleof6]

I personally think you are crazy to rely on your return pump as the only water mover in a tank. That was would be inefficient not to mention pointless to have that much flow going through the filtration and heaters.

Chuckles, in a room full of lunatics, the one sane person would be considered "crazy."

Depends on your definition of "efficiency," but no one has suggested that a return pump be the only water movement source, unless the advice is deliberately misinterpreted-- and that is the "interpretation."

There is no verifiable evidence to suggest that sump effectiveness will suffer at higher flow rates. As bean put it: "There is nothing in the sump that is allergic to high flow." The only allergy there is, is to the electric meter, and that is the science of it......... Power heads cannot be replaced with return flow, and vice versa. They perform different functions, and are not really additive, as many believe. But the three biggies with marine systems are: Water quality, lighting, and flow/water movement.



This tank will have two Vortex MP60s and a closed loop.

I used 4 Vortec MP40s, and a Barracuda on the 337 i just did. Needs more...... can't ever have too much flow. Haven't got a hold of a 60 yet.

Setting aside the fact that the people who made the tanks screwed up and don't know what they are doing as far as building, "reef ready" tanks. Just wanted to make sure I was pushing as much flow as I could threw those puny little holes safely.

I would disagree with you on this. These builders know exactly what they are doing. They are catering to what is popular (read $)-- not what works the best.

The other option is I could leave it how it is now with the largerst coralife pump made a 15g wet dry sump, two 3/4" feed lines and two 1" durso drains. Any think that is the way to go? :wildone:

I am certain there is a long list of posters that think this would be the way to go. Obivously you don't, or you wouldn't have questioned it. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it-- even if you don't like it much.

 

[ToLearn]

Setting aside the fact that the people who made the tanks screwed up and don't know what they are doing as far as building, "reef ready" tanks. Yep...sounds like it Just wanted to make sure I was pushing as much flow as I could threw those puny little holes safely.

This is all I was really asking though appreciate the other info.

Teesquare don't be too quick to take things personally or you'll find yourself upset a lot on the forums. What I should have said would be, "I think anyone would be crazy to rely on a return pump for of their flow." And it would seem most hear would agree with that.

The tank has managed to stay heated enough over the course of a year with probably about half the amount of flow I am going to put through it. So aside from getting into the laws of thermodynamics and relying on some formulas to figure out if the flow rate by the heaters would be enough. If it worked before with a flow rate twice as fast it will work as well. I can tell you I doubt you'll find a media reactor that would suggest running more than 1000gph through carbon or phosphate removing media. The skimmer I have not yet finalized on, but there is no such thing as a skimmer that removes 100% of the proteins the first run through, so I doubt it would hurt to have a skimmer pulling more into and out of the sump then is going through the display.

I just wanted to make sure someone else ran through the calculations I came up with and I wasn't missing something. If I could safely push twice as many GPH through the 4 bulk heads in the bottom of the tank then I would.

 

[teesquare]

This is all I was really asking though appreciate the other info.

Teesquare don't be too quick to take things personally or you'll find yourself upset a lot on the forums. :lolspin: Thanks for your interest, I can assure you, I did not take it personal - I just found your phrasing to sound rude and arrogant. I don't think that is how you intended to sound, and I hope you find a way to soften your approach to others a bit, so that you get as much response to your questions as you want - And - my apology for saying it that plain, but I tried teasing you a bit about it the first time - and it did not reach the target....I am sure it is just your "style" of saying/typing things. What I should have said would be, "I think anyone would be crazy to rely on a return pump for of their flow." And it would seem most hear would agree with that. Sorry - but, you will find - after more time on this forum, that all of us are in fact entitled to an opinion. And it may or may not agree with yours. I - for one believe in high flow. In both the pump choice and the sump design. And it is only because I have plumbed many tanks over my 30 years in this hobby, and tried it every concievable way. However - that does not it is the only choice - nor is it the right choice for every situation. But I also would not dare to call anyone crazy for using a different approach.
That is why my comment to you about being more open-minded. We really can't learn anything - if we are already convinced that we know it all, can we? I certainly do not want you to think I am bashing you. I genuinely enjoy participation in many aspects of RC. And I hope you find this site as helpful in your continuing education as I have. If I had approached this thread as convinved that I knew all I needed about plumbing ( I have plumbed over 500 systems at this point) then - I would have scoffed at Bean' and Unc's advice - and never tried this method. And - now that I have, I can assure you, it is a leap forward in keeping debris in suspension long enough to be dealt with by the flow, and removed from the tank. It runs near silent. I have never been able to force the system to overflow the tank onto the floor. And - if you look at my build thread about this most recent tank - you will see tha I tested it thorughly, trying to make it screw up. It did not.
Bottom line for me here is - I try to be open to learn, and I think you will benefit from this forum more - if your questions are phrased a bit more friendly, and not sounding like you are stating that others are crazy if they don't agree with you.:thumbsup:

The tank has managed to stay heated enough over the course of a year with probably about half the amount of flow I am going to put through it. So aside from getting into the laws of thermodynamics and relying on some formulas to figure out if the flow rate by the heaters would be enough.And - you could be helpful to all of us by sharing anything you find like this. I have never really found it to be a problem, but - I would like to have a chart that is based on science Sounds like you have access to some. If it worked before with a flow rate twice as fast it will work as well. I can tell you I doubt you'll find a media reactor that would suggest running more than 1000gph through carbon or phosphate removing media.And you are right, but I don't understand why that is the same as your original pump question. I use a powerhead for my reactors. The skimmer I have not yet finalized on, but there is no such thing as a skimmer that removes 100% of the proteins the first run throughTrue! or as many times as you want to run the tank volume thru it for that matter. There is a very interesting set of articles on thissubject in Reefkeeping magazine - on line - by Ken Feldman. I don't know that I agree with all of it, or that the test perameters are what I would like to see, but- it is the first very detailed test data I have seen. I think he says 20-30 percent of organics is what we can expect to remove via skimming, so I doubt it would hurt to have a skimmer pulling more into and out of the sump then is going through the display.If I understand correctly - once again -I agree with you, in that I think it is better to slightly oversize the skimmer -vs- undersize.

I just wanted to make sure someone else ran through the calculations I came up with and I wasn't missing something. If I could safely push twice as many GPH through the 4 bulk heads in the bottom of the tank then I would. I am not sure about what you mean. May I suggest that you click on BeanAnimal's name, and there you will find a link to his home page. I believe there are some charts which can help you determine flow capacities.

Best of Luck!
T

 

[TheFishMan65]

Tee I agree with everything you say, but just a comment. I have a Halloween decoration that says:
"If you are too open minded your brains will fall out"
There is some sense in this that there are differing opinions in just about everything. At some point we have to make up our mind which is the best approach and try it. I guess all I am trying to say maybe more for the noobie is read, read, read, and then make up your mind what you want to do.

 

[teesquare]

Fish - following your logic then-If one has a "full head" then - why possibly ask questions, posed in adversarial language - if there is no place to put the answers? Just kidding you...I bet you see my point.

Please see my previous post - again - I am all for differing opinions, and experiences. And I am for us all sharing them.

Two things that I do not believe are in the best interest of this forum or this thread:
1. Folks that have never tried an appoach, caling others crazy for thinking differently than themselves, especially when thay come to the tread to ask questions....? It kind gets in the way of actual learning, doesn't it?
2. Veering this far off of the purpose of this thread.:thumbsup:

No offense intended. I just think we need to have a mutual goal, and - correct me if I am wrong here - but this thread was, and should still be about the "Silent and Safe Overflow System", right?

I was attempting to communicate to "ToLearn" that I welcome him -and enjoy the exchange of ideas. But I believe it would help him be heard, and responded to better, if the tone he chooses is more friendly.
Anything wrong with that? Not my place to police anyone, just asking for a civil tone. I find that - in most cases - we get the respect that we offer to others returned to us in like kind.
And - if we don't them we can just ignore the questions. I did not want ToLearn to feel further ignored, but - to try and help him understand the principle of when approaching a group on a specific issue - of which they have experience- that a less aggressive, and condeming manner will yield a more willing set of responses.
Nuff said?
T

 

[ToLearn]

Agree with The Fish Man, you can be open to ideas to an extent and I listen and hear or anything. I stick by my belief that anyone who relies on only their return pump for flow is crazy, but perhaps should add to that, "especially when you buy a tank made by a large manufacturer in this industry and do not enlarge the holes in the tank."

Someone had said I wouldn't have enough flow in the tank at some point and then teesquare you had said.
"This tank will have two Vortex MP60s and a closed loopAnd that sounds like a start of a good plan.. "
I suppose I can't assume that you would agree that not using these would be a bad plan or almost crazy? ;-) Perhaps it's just the word crazy that irked you. I'll just state it is my personal opinion that the return pump should not be counted on for the only means of flow.

I recently saw a tank designed by a maintenance company in the area which was a 90g corner tank with two Maxi-Jet 600s and the smallest corallife skimmer they make.... I'm open to other methods, but also have been on the coral reefs in person and this wasn't a strictly lagoon biotype system.

T would you mind sending me a PM and give me your recommendations on a skimmer for a 300+g system? (don't want to further side track this thread anymore and respect your opinion)


I have to repeat that I LOVE beananimals write up on this. I had used a combination of Durso and siphon on a tank in the past, but never really figured out the formulas for how quickly I could pump things through. I greatly appreciate the wealth of information there.

 

[teesquare]

I am glad that you took my encouragement to stay engaged in civil discourse well! Makes me feel that perhaps, and on rare occasion - I can convey what I am thinking, without offending folks!

FWIW- I do have , use, and like both Tunzes, and MP-40's as supplimental to the primary closed loop I have. For me they best serve us as and adjunct to a CL, for when you have re-arranged the rock structure, and the CL can't get flow everywhere you want. Or when corals have grown and they will break up water flow, thus reducing the effectiveness of the original intent or design. Just my use of them not, and necessarily right or wrong. Again - one reason they are my second choice because the older I get, the tougher it is to get to the back of the tank, near the bottom. And if you are going to be sucessful with any powerhead type device long term - you recognize the need for removal, and acid or vinegar baths and other cleaning/maintenance.
And - I am guessing that it was an oversight on the part of one or both of us - but, I did not suggest that you should only depend on you return pump for water movement...did I ...:twitch:?
As for the maintenance company...well - there is often no planning and vision involved in some descisions. That goes for much more than aquariums! But there are good custom install/maintenance guys out here too!:wave:
Yes - Bean has put a great deal of effort into the site, and into the clear description of how the overflow should work.

PM on the way!

T

 

[Volcano1]

Few pics of completed overflow.

 

[Tat2demon]

Looks great Volcano. Wish I had used a gate valve on mine. Ball valves are such a pain in the *** to get adjusted.

 

[ToLearn]

Volcano1 I think you want to snip that black air line tubing just a little shorter. Could be wrong, but I believe the reason you want to point it down is so that if the water gets above the normal level it basically converts the durso into a siphon, but during normal operation you want it to pull a little air or just be open for degassing. Bean words things better then I do, I would just re-read the section he wrote.

It wouldn't be the end of the world if you didn't make that tweak, but might help a little. The rest looks VERY nicely done though btw. I am very jealous of the coast to coast. I already purchased a standard perfecto tank with a single corner overflow.(will be making swiss cheese out of it to add more drain lines and a closed loop, but still wish I could do the coast to coast) Good work!

 

[Volcano1]

Thanks guys, had lots of help from regulars to the thread,Uncle, bean ,etc.It took way too long to get everything done on my part, but the results worked out well.

 

[larryfl1]

when you guys drilled and installed the 3/8 john guest mip fitting into the non siphon cap...

did you tap the threads or just drill and use silicon to lock it waterproof???

also how are you supporting the pipe coming down from the exterior box? i dont want to pull it down... i see some wood used in photos but are you using unions to sit above the wood to lock it in place??
any details on this would be appreciated...

thanks

Larry