Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Jayson78]

No love...

 

[Hotpuppy]

Howdy folks... great design for an overflow.

Anyone have experience implementing this with a fish room? My fish room is 25 feet from my display. I had a "modified durso" type dual 2 inch overflow on the tank that was originally intendeded... during testing I wasn't very happy with it.

I'm going to implement this because I like the safety.

So my questions are:
1. Should the emergency be a completely redundant line?
2. Can I come out of the siphon, go to a valve, and then tee in the open channel to that line? or does the siphon line need to be completely separate? It seems like the siphon is between the valve and the overflow and the pipe may be not completely full beyond that. However, I can't say without testing it.

3. I'm trying to avoid 3 lines out to my fish room..... could the e-flow (emergency overflow) and open channel be tied together? Any suggestions on why this should be avoided?

4. I'm pretty confident that the 2 inch line isn't going to clog..... could I marry all 3 lines south of the valve? i.e. siphon -> valve - Tee - fish room / open channel - tee / emergency - tee

5. In the sump, does the line need to be submerged to maintain the siphon effect? I'm planning to feed my refugium from the overflow (eliminates a pump in doing so).. plumbing is a bit complicated to take advantage of it.. but it should work. I could easily use the open channel to do this as the fuge needs flow, not torrent.

Bump - >

Anyone using this with a fishroom / remote sump?

 

[crossleymarko]

to tell you the truth im confused, here is whats happening. the flow starts i have bubbles, in the sump and they clear. with the ball valve fully open the weir empties quicly and then there is a sucking noise and it fills again, if i close the valve ( say half way) to stop the weir empting i have bubbles in the full syphon. valve is near the sump. and then the open channel starts bubbling. with lots of noise.all pipes are around 2 " into th sump water

is the fact the weir is emptiy meaning my pump cant keep up.
should i turn the elbow on the oc upwards so as not to syphon too much.

hotpuppy, the answer to your questions is probably yes to both a and b... doh.. sorry

 

[Hotpuppy]

to tell you the truth im confused, here is whats happening. the flow starts i have bubbles, in the sump and they clear. with the ball valve fully open the weir empties quicly and then there is a sucking noise and it fills again, if i close the valve ( say half way) to stop the weir empting i have bubbles in the full syphon. valve is near the sump. and then the open channel starts bubbling. with lots of noise.all pipes are around 2 " into th sump water

is the fact the weir is emptiy meaning my pump cant keep up.
should i turn the elbow on the oc upwards so as not to syphon too much.

hotpuppy, the answer to your questions is probably yes to both a and b... doh.. sorry

You have scenario A.

Here is what is very likely going on.

- The system starts up, the OC and EO are engaged.
- The siphon starts
- The siphon clears the air and comes up to full capacity
- The siphon now clears the weir and breaks the siphon by suckin in air.
- The OC and EO do their job and go back to step 1.

The fix is to use the ball valve to throttle the siphon. Try it at 50%. Give it 5 minutes. If the OC is making too much noise, increase it by say 10%.

think of the ball valve like a clock. Full open is Noon/6pm, Full closed is 3/9. Try to move it 1 minute at a time in order to throttle it.

If you open it and it clears the weir, you need to go back to the previous minute. Start at about 7 minutes and work back towards Noon. These will be very tiny movements.

If you have a gate valve then use this. Close the valve. Now open the valve and count the number of turns from full open to full close.

Go back half of the turns.

Make adjustments 1/4 turn at a time.


I think you just need to adjust your siphon and it will be fine.

 

[crossleymarko]

ok fthanks hot puppy.
i now have success. though i do feel that im useining too wider pipe. (maybe chANGE TO 21.5MM ALL THROUGH)once i have it running fine for a few hours done all tests.. oc turning to full siphon etc..i turn off the pump, its a chore to get it going again... as you have said above i have to turn the ball valve to nearly zero for a couple of seconds then turn it roughly were i had it previously.. this seems to get the full siphon going. then i tune what is the reason why it wont restart again automaticly. any help is taken on board.

thanks again

 

[crossleymarko]

ok fthanks hot puppy.
i now have success. though i do feel that im useining too wider pipe. (maybe chANGE TO 21.5MM ALL THROUGH)once i have it running fine for a few hours done all tests.. oc turning to full siphon etc..i turn off the pump, its a chore to get it going again... as you have said above i have to turn the ball valve to nearly zero for a couple of seconds then turn it roughly were i had it previously.. this seems to get the full siphon going. then i tune what is the reason why it wont restart again automaticly. any help is taken on board.

thanks again

 

[TheFishMan65]

What happens if you don't adjust the valve? Does it self tune? It should.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Crossley, the system should only need adjust one time and should restart on its own after a power cycle. From your photos, questions, comments and lack of basic understanding of the system operation it would appear that you may have not have fully read the first page of the thread and the project page at my site

The system operation and tuning are explained in detail in both places and it may be worth another full read.

If the system DOES NOT start after a power cycle, then your siphon pipe is submerged too far into the sump and/or is not fully sealed. If it is not fully sealed, then bubbles will come out of it even under full siphon.

 

[crossleymarko]

bean thank you...just took the hack saw to it... it seems that i my measurments were out slightly, after reading your site again it seems i made a boo boo, it seems as all measurments us and uk are different. uk gal us gal etc...

i misunderstood just under the water line instruction on on your site and it apears it was the US value of "just under the water line" of 1 "

and not the UK version of around 2.5".... lol (hope you get the joke and perhaps put a measurment in there. as i couldnt find one sorry)

thanks again cant beleive how silent it is and how much water im moving

 

[crossleymarko]

restarts ok now.. it takes 15 mins, to stop all wooshing and purging noises.. but its automatic...

 

[Jayson78]

In addition would 1/4" be enough clearance from the top of my overflow and the top of my tank?

Any advice is greatly encouraged. Im eager to move forward on my project. Thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

restarts ok now.. it takes 15 mins, to stop all wooshing and purging noises.. but its automatic...

I am glad you got this far! Silence is amazing isn't it

However still too long... I suspect that your siphon is still having trouble purging all of the air for some reason. Let it build up a slime coat for a week or so and keep testing so that you find YOUR comfort zone with the way it operates and then check back. Again, there should be ZERO bubbles coming out of the siphon once the system settles

 

[BeanAnimal]

Any advice is greatly encouraged. Im eager to move forward on my project. Thanks

It depends on the proposed flow and width of the weir, as well as how fast the emergency drain kicks in. In a trimmed tank, we usually put the top of the weir at the bottom of the trim. This means that there will never be a visible water line even with the pumps off and there is around 1" or more of headroom between the weir and the overflow point at the top of the trim.

I would shoot for at least .5" or .75"

Hope that helps some...

 

[crossleymarko]

as bean said.. you want the top of the weir at your proposed water line and make sure all is level, and i mean dead level including tank, to get a continuous line of water over the weir...

 

[crossleymarko]

ok got it down to 6.5 mins, i did this by changing the top cap of the Fs channel and putting an air line on the cap.and in the water like the OC emergency air pipe. hoping to purge any air out of the cap...

 

[Jayson78]

I am close to finishing my "bean" system. Couple questions...

1) What's the best way to attach my overflow box to my tank? (They are both arcylic)
2) I drilled my bulkheads all at the same level... Will I be able to get the same benefits by shortening 1 of the schedule 90's?
3) I've read a lot of people suggest using gate valves. Is this nessesary on all 3 drains? (it may be a tight fit for all those under my tank.)
4) I have also read that some suggest taking the sharp edge off the inside of the overflow box. Is this something I should do?

Thanks for all your opinions!

Thanks Bean!

Any insight on my previous questions? Now that I'll be lowering my overflow 1/4" than originally planned itwill give me room to add 1/4" onto one of my drains. Will this 1/4" extension give me the same benefits as if I drilled 1 bulkhead lower than the others?

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, the bulkhead height is what forms the weir height for each standpipe, not the length that the down turned elbow extends into the tank.

1) Solvent weld it, or (2) use the bulkheads to attach it.
2) NO (see above). If the system is built as outlined it will work with them at the same level.
3) The only drain the NEEDS a valve is the siphon. It does not have to be a gate valve and in fact I feel a gate valve is a total waste of money.
4) Taking the sharp edge off will alow the water to run the profile of the weir and may prevent noise in some cases.. Honestly I would not put too much effort into it if you don't have the time or tools.

 

[Jayson78]

Thanks so much. With this info I don't see why I cant get water in the tank this weekend!! Exciting!

 

[bruce 1]

My tank will be started soon. (27x27x27) What size bulk heads would you use for this set up? 1.5" OR 2"? Also how far apart do the 3 holes need to be drilled? And how much does the plumbing stick out behind the tank? (3 to 4 inches????) Thank you Bruce.

 

[picker]

It's obvious, but for google, water stands away from the C2C and near the glass.

so the limiting factor in making the smallest C2C is away from the glass

but its kinda localized.