Silent and Failsafe Overflow System
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Sorry picker, I did not see your initial post.
Both are very similar. The standpipe with the Tee may trap a bit more air and slightly increase settling time, but there are many other variables. The reason for the Tee and cap is mostly to allow for maintenance (cleaning) of the vertical standpipe.
Secondly, some open channels may gurgle if the air inlet is at the back of an elbow
Glad to see your setup working.
Both are very similar. The standpipe with the Tee may trap a bit more air and slightly increase settling time, but there are many other variables. The reason for the Tee and cap is mostly to allow for maintenance (cleaning) of the vertical standpipe.
Secondly, some open channels may gurgle if the air inlet is at the back of an elbow
Glad to see your setup working.
Anyone???
TheFishMan65
New member
Bruce, Check out Bean site. It has a calculator for hole size versus water flow. 1.5 would probably be fine, but I don't know how much flow you want.
It will also probably tell you how far apart to drill holes. 1.5 diameters between holes comes to mind, but I am not positive.
Plumbing depends on how you do it. 3-4 sound about right, but some have had more and others less. lay it out and measure it.
It will also probably tell you how far apart to drill holes. 1.5 diameters between holes comes to mind, but I am not positive.
Plumbing depends on how you do it. 3-4 sound about right, but some have had more and others less. lay it out and measure it.
TheFishMan65
New member
Jayson,
Did you use a black glue? Look forward to seeing it altogether. Everything looked ok to me except the plumbing does not seem to be supported anywhere.
Did you use a black glue? Look forward to seeing it altogether. Everything looked ok to me except the plumbing does not seem to be supported anywhere.
No black glue, just clear acrylic solvent. Supports for the PVC are coming as well as reattaching the back supports on the tank stand. Just wanted everything positioned prior to final install. Thanks for checking it out. My only concern was the Frrankinstien return line. I ran about 2 inches of flex line on the input and output of the pump. I did this to help control vibration noise!? Maybe over thinking it. Then the trip up is a series of 45's... Not sure it it's too many connections. I could scrap the flex line, switch to 90's and simplify if necessary.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Jayson:
You are going to have a startup issue, as the siphon standpip exits far too deep in the sump.
You are going to have a startup issue, as the siphon standpip exits far too deep in the sump.
jason2459
Well-known member
Getting very close to getting my 180 up. This weekend hopefully. I asked some questions earlier and decided to go with an external overflow with the ~2.5 inch hole in the center of the tank and putting a overflow box on the inside of the tank.
I cut holes for 1.5in bulk heads but will be going down to the 1in pipes I already have ran to start with. I went with 1.5in bulkhead just for future upgrade capabilities if needed. I'm planning on only around 700gph through the sump so right now the 1in is more then enough. Sump is in the basement with about 16ft head height and a good 15ft horizontal run so I will put the valves at the sump end.
I thought I saw a few pictures in this thread where people used straight up pipes and just wanted to confirm that I could do that with this external overflow. For the full siphon I think I will still go with a elbow just to make sure not to create a vortex from the surface.
With the Open Channel straight stand pipe do I still need the air tubing?
So planning full siphon with U elbow facing down > emergency straight stand pipe > Open Channel straight stand pipe
Crude mspaint
I cut holes for 1.5in bulk heads but will be going down to the 1in pipes I already have ran to start with. I went with 1.5in bulkhead just for future upgrade capabilities if needed. I'm planning on only around 700gph through the sump so right now the 1in is more then enough. Sump is in the basement with about 16ft head height and a good 15ft horizontal run so I will put the valves at the sump end.
I thought I saw a few pictures in this thread where people used straight up pipes and just wanted to confirm that I could do that with this external overflow. For the full siphon I think I will still go with a elbow just to make sure not to create a vortex from the surface.
With the Open Channel straight stand pipe do I still need the air tubing?
So planning full siphon with U elbow facing down > emergency straight stand pipe > Open Channel straight stand pipe
Crude mspaint
mc-cro
(macro)
That is almost exactly how I have mine set up with an external overflow.
I did use a durso for the 2nd pipe, with an airline tube secured just above the normal water line in the overflow. The 3rd pipe is just a straight open tube.
I dont know if the durso pipe is absolutely necessary, but it does 2 things. 1 is it keeps the noise level down for the little trickle of water that is falling into it. the second thing is that in the event the water level does rise, the durso with the airline tubing will create the full siphon effect.
I did use a durso for the 2nd pipe, with an airline tube secured just above the normal water line in the overflow. The 3rd pipe is just a straight open tube.
I dont know if the durso pipe is absolutely necessary, but it does 2 things. 1 is it keeps the noise level down for the little trickle of water that is falling into it. the second thing is that in the event the water level does rise, the durso with the airline tubing will create the full siphon effect.
Spaced Cowboy
South Bay Reefer
(emphasis mine)
I would qualify that, slightly, at least for my case.
I'm using a standard reef-ready tank, with two overflows in place, each with a 1" and a 1.5" hole/bulkhead at the bottom. To do a "bean-animal-like" (the 'like' is important here) design, I have the following arrangement:
.. so there's only the one weir (the left one) which is usually being used to return water to the sump. I found a few things out that are probably of interest to anyone else considering trying this on a reef-ready system, even though everyone's system is different, I think some of this will be useful...
- If you're trying to get a high-flow through the system (in my case circa 2000gph after losses due to plumbing), having one small (18") weir makes things more temperamental. It also reduces the region within which the system runs silently. The noise source becomes the water overflowing into the overflow, rather than the water flowing down to the sump.
- Higher flow on a deeper overflow box means you get more air bubbles being drawn down to the inverted siphon intake. I had to extend my siphon intake about 8" deeper into the overflow than I'd expected to prevent bubbles being drawn down. It's not that important if they are, of course. At high flow those bubbles aren't going anywhere but down.
- The gate valve is very useful for tuning the system in. Perhaps once you've gained some expertise and experience it's not necessary, but for starting off, it's very useful. Admittedly this may be more to do with the specifics of this setup. I've found that even a slight change (a 1/8th turn of the wheel) can raise or lower the water in the overflow column by an inch or so. That's the difference between silent and splashy (into the overflow) for me. I think it would be a lot harder with a standard ball-valve, the gate-valve gives more control.
I have noticed that the system is becoming less variable over time - it's been a couple of weeks running now, and I only have to tweak it every other day or so to raise/lower the overflow height by an inch or so. At the start it was every few hours. I'm hopeful that it'll settle down even more as time goes by.
I ought to also point out that I'm being very anal about this splashy sound - it's nowhere near the volume of a standard drain, but we have a (large
TV that's 25-30' away, and the tank is right next to the dining table. I'm trying to keep the tank quiet so we don't have to have the TV on at ear-shattering volumes. Overall, though, I'm happy with how it turned out, and it *is* possible to get a good "bean-animal" experience from a standard reef-ready tank. The higher your flow, the harder it becomes, but even at ~2000gph it's very do-able.
Simon.
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Spaced Cowboy
South Bay Reefer
What I found useful was that Schedule-80 2" piping fits over Schedule-80 1.5" piping like a glove - you could probably use it as a coupling it's that good a fit. So I have a piece of 2" piping that I could slide up and down to suit, which made installation easier.
For the 1" non-siphon drain, I used some rubber tubing which again slipped over the rigid pipe and could be easily cut to size. My two pipes drain into a water-column area of the sump (which overflows into the skimmer area) thus keeping the height constant, and they terminate about 0.5" below the surface.
It takes about 20 secs for the system to start itself up from a return-pump-off situation, a few bubbles in the skimmer-area of the sump, a bit of burbling, and it's all good.
Simon
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Spaced Cowboy... Instead of fiddling with the splashing sound, why not raise the intake so that there is only 1/2" or so of drop into the overflow box?
jason2459
Well-known member
Still looking at this weekend to put the 180 up in the house so this is probably the last post before going live with it. So, if anyone see's anything really really wrong please let me know. I will get a tube to shove down the open channel and zip tie it to the emergency. I plan on keeping everything dry fitted inside the overflow so I can easily modify as needed or swap around the roles periodically.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
The reason that we don't use an open top standpipe for the open channel...
When water flows into an open pipe, it tends to make noise that is radiated outward from the top of the open pipe
When water flows into an open pipe, it tends to make noise that is radiated outward from the top of the open pipe
Spaced Cowboy
South Bay Reefer
So the problem is that I have a 1.5" pipe coming up from the bottom of the overflow, so I need to do a U to avoid a vortex, and by the time the U is formed (using 2 90-degree street elbows), it's already about 3" down into the overflow box if I keep the top of the U where the top of the water-column is, so it can start to siphon easily.
I think the basic problem here is that I have a combination of very high flow (about 2000 gph after head and piping losses) and a very small weir (18") because I'm only using one overflow. The splashy sound is the predictable result when the water falls over the weir, and the distance it can fall is related to the geometry of the elbows.
Hmm - thinking about this a bit more, I could probably get rid of the 2 90-degree elbows and "print" something (on my makerbot) like:
... where the prongs fit onto the inside of the 1.5" piping, and there's sufficient space for the flow to be accommodated in the outer ring. The flat top would prevent a vortex being formed... Yes, I think that might work, and reduce the minimum distance between the pipe-inlet and the weir, thus reducing the splashiness...
Simon
jason2459
Well-known member
The reason that we don't use an open top standpipe for the open channel...
When water flows into an open pipe, it tends to make noise that is radiated outward from the top of the open pipe
Thanks. This leads to one more question. Being in the external overflow would I still need to worry about an airtight jon guest type fitting on the top or could I just drill a hole and shove in the airline tubing kind of what it looks like glass holes does with their setup?
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