Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[luv951]

Whoops double post.

 

[luv951]

The main sump side will likely need to be vented at the top to prevent airlock and splashing.

Yes, the air will need to be allowed to escape the pipe at one or both ends, vented at the SUMP operating level.

Bean,

I am dealing with the same issue, almost exactly the same setup as Tony. I have an airlock situation. How would I go about venting the line in the sump room? Just a pipe that terminates at a point higher than the tank?

Do I have to vent all three lines or just the siphon?

Or, could I add some airline and have it curve back into the sump (above normal operating level), so once the air purges, it would just allow a trickle of water through and into the sump?

Thanks

 

[bruce 1]

Hello All,

I am new to reefing; having my first ever reef tank built; the builder is ready to 'cut glass'. This will be ~ 200 gallons, 72"Lx 30"Wx 20"H, external bean animal overflow. I plan on having the overflow box of 24"L x 5"W x 20"H centered on the back wall (which is 72"). So the bottom of the overflow box is even with the bottom of the tank. There is a 6" shelf of 3/4" plywood behind the tank. So the bottom of the overflow box will rest on this plywood; the plumbing will, of course, run thru the bottom glass of the overflow, thru the plywood, and will then be visible from below.

My questions...

1) what size pipes do you recommend for +/-800 gal per hour flow
2) what size holes do I tell the builder to cut into the bottom of the overflow box?
3) is 5"W wide enough for the bottom of the overflow?
4) what size/type bulheads do you recommend?

I understand the concept here and I find it fascinating but I just don't know enough to speak to the details of these questions. Thank you in advance

Donald

I am having a tank built about the same as yours. 72x27x27 with an internal overflow, Mine (overflow) is going to be 36 x 6w x 7t. . I am having 1.5 inch sch 80 bulkheads put in mine. That is want I was told to put.

 

[DonaldLL]

Thanks Bruce... am i correct that a 1.5" bulkhead means that the standpipes will be 1.5" each?

 

[luv951]

After a day or so of experimenting, I am at a loss with this. I hope someone can chime in and help, because I don't know what to try next.

The siphon in my system does not kick in. The open channel takes the flow, but not all of it and the emergency line takes a bit too. If I turn the siphon into a second open channel, it takes flow. Once I turn back to a siphon line, it does not anymore. Either line that I turn into the siphon line does not kick in.

I tried adding a vent at the sump entry, at the highest point - where the pipe has to come up to clear the tank rim. It did not help. I also tried priming the line, by placing a pump output into the pipe at the sump and filling the siphon line with as much water as I could. It also did not help, although it seemed like i got all the air out of that point in the line.. I have tried completely shutting down the open channel, in case it was just robbing the flow from the siphon, but it did not help. I also tried just letting it run for a while to see if the siphon would kick in. After 6+ hours, it did not change.

How do I get this siphon to start?

My set up is the tank in the house, the sump is in a garage sump room. There is about a 20 ft, horizontal run that the pipe makes between the tank and the garage. In the sump room, the pipe has to make a vertical climb about 14 inches to get up and over the main sump. Its not actually vertical since I used flex pvc, but you get the idea.

Any ideas?

 

[luv951]

So, I just blocked the open channel at the sump. Then, I opened the siphon line to get it running, so that, hopefully, whatever air is in there would purge. After getting it running, I closed the air supply off, making it a siphon. Now it is siphoning, but the open channel is completely closed off. Nothing is going down the emergency line, so I have it balanced...but I know this is not a good long term setup.

At this point, I am going to keep it running like this until there are no more bubbles coming from the siphon line at the sump. Then, shut it down and restart to see if the siphon will start automatically. It it does, I will try to open up the open channel and see what happens....

This is frustrating....

 

[luv951]

Well that failed. After shutting it down and restarting, no siphon started and it would have flooded had I not shut the pump down.

I just can't get this thing to work.....

 

[BeanAnimal]

Luv,

As I have pointed out several times throughout the course of this thread... the driving force for the design of this standpipe system was to create a "one-size-fits-all" set of plans, that if followed, would provide for predictable, silent and reasonably fail-safe overflow system that would accommodate a huge range of flows without altering the design. In that way, anybody who follows the plans can use the system without having to modify it or calculate flow rates and/or fiddle with constant tuning, etc.

You and several others have chosen to alter (significantly) the plans to the point that there is no chance of they system operating as designed. While it may be possible to work out a solution, you have introduced a large number of variables and created somewhat expected problems.

I have no idea what your net head is, but it certainly sounds like you are going to have one hell of a time getting the siphon to start due to airlocking in the horizontal pipe. Also, the "open channel" is not going to act like an open channel, as the rise at the end of the run creates a trap that (again) is going to cause an airlocking issue.

You have 3 runs of pipe to the sump?
What is the distance between the water level in the sump and the display?
Distance from the lowest point in the plumbing to the rim of the sump?

 

[luv951]

Thanks for the reply.

You have 3 runs of pipe to the sump?
What is the distance between the water level in the sump and the display?
Distance from the lowest point in the plumbing to the rim of the sump?

Yes, 3 runs of pipe to the sump.

Water level in the display is @ 50 inches. Water level in the sump is @ 17 inches.

Distance from the lowest point in the plumbing to sump rim = 17 inches

I have airlines on both the siphon and open channel. If I have either of those airlines open on start up, the line in question takes flow. Once the air purges, I can close the airline and create a full siphon. If the power is cut to the return pump I have to start that process over again. Not sure if that's relevant or not, but putting it out there.

 

[chriscobb]

Curious is there a recommended height for the emergency pipe in the overflow box? I was advised to set the other 2 drains 1/2" - 3/4" off the bottom of the overflow, but curious as to the height for the emergency line????

I saw an earlier post where Bean said about raising the pipe height to minimize splashing into the overflow. Is this correct???

 

[gone_fishing]

I am having a custom tank made (72x24x26) with a c2c overflow built in and three 1.5" openings for the pipes. Does anyone see anyting wrong with having the return pipes (2) go through the back of the tank and over the c2c? It was suggested by the retailer of the tank manufacturer to put a notch in the c2c for the pipe work. I want to make sure before ordering that it will not create any sound by doing so. Thanks in advance!

 

[shaggss]

I am planning to have mine come up through the bottom of the weir at each end of the c2c and then through the back wall of the tank via bulkheads.

HTHs

 

[luv951]

Thank you Lanimret for providing this. I was pretty frustrated over the weekend because I could not get this system to run reliably with my setup. I have a long horizontal run to my sump too and your post helped me figure it out.

Here is what I did:

1. I drilled a hole just above the water line in the sump.
2. I installed a valve on the sump end of the siphon drain (in hindisight, this is not being used at all, so the only effect it is having is the restriction from the valve itself.

3. I tried a check valve, but it failed. It was too restrictive to let the air purge from the siphon line.

In my setup, when the system is initially started, the siphon line purges air. Once the initial air purge is complete, it begins pulling in air as it becomes an open channel. If I am standing there to shut off the air flow, it will become a full siphon, but it won't do it on its own. I tried running the airline down into the overflow, but if it went too deep, it created too much back pressure to purge the air. If it was too shallow, it would just turn into an open line and never develop full siphon. I finally solved the problem by running the airline into the main display.

I ran the airline through the overflow weir gates and attached it to one of my returns. I had about a half inch of wiggle room with it being at at depth sufficient to create a siphon. I simply zip-tied it to my return line. It started over and over again.

I realize that there is the danger of something in my tank blocking the line, so I split the line and ran two into the tank. I tested it, and if something does block both airlines, it will just run like an open standpipe.

My main concern is what would happen if there was a power outage - would the system come back online OK. With this setup, even if something blocks one or more of the airlines, it will come back online just fine. If there is a blockage and it does not siphon, I will hear it and be able to deal with it.

Maybe not as failsafe as originally intended, but given my desire to have a remote fish room, failsafe enough for me to sleep at night. I tested many failure methods; partially or fully blocking the airlines and the three standpipes, I am comfortable.

Hopefully this can help the next guy who has a remote setup and can't figure this system out.

Thought I would post this since I didn't see it anywhere (I will try and posts some pic's later).

I have a very long run from one tank (i have two tanks in this system) to my sump. Something like 15 vertical feet and about 12 horizontal feet. I was having a tough time (as Bean has mentioned) getting the siphon to start properly without assistance. I am using 3 1" drains on a 100g tank with an external overflow I built into the side of the tank.

What I ended up doing was three things:

First I fully opened the valve below the tank itself (I have one below the tank and one by the sump for the siphon drain on both tanks) and used the valve closer to the sump to adjust the waterflow. This was actually fairly easy to do simply by using the sound of the drain, when it stopped sucking air, it got quiet.

Second I drilled a small hole (1/4") just above the water line in the sump to allow air to vent out.

Third I removed the standpipe I had for the siphon drain (basically just two 90 degree elbows) and replaced it with a T with a street 90. At the top port of the T I installed a John Guest adapted, a short length of 1/4" airline and a check valve. This allows the drain to suck in a little bit of air to get started, but then seals off once the pressure stabilizes. Works perfectly, siphon takes just a few seconds to kick in. Thought this might be useful to someone.

The downside of course is the check valve could fail at some point, but its not really as issue as all 3 drains easily manage the full flow of the tank individually without issue. So worst case the siphon stops and I will simply hear the other drains kick in and replace it.

Anyway, dead silent, works fantastically, just thought I would share my experience. Great system Bean.

 

[rayn]

Question on the system and balance. I currently have this setup on my 120 and love it, few adjustments a while back and it works flawlessly. I currently building a 400 plywood and would love to incorporate this into the build as well. Would it be possible to have both tanks drain into a large sump and still have the return flow working where neither overflow or drain the sump? I guess some ball valves would do the trick, but just wondering before I plan it out this way. I'm thinking a large tank to catch the water from the overflow, then having the returns pump it through a fuge type area, skimmer area, then back to the tank. Sorry this isn't all planned out yet, but before I invest a bunch of time in it I would like to know the chances of it working.

 

[darb85]

any problems running Gate valves vs Ball valves?

 

[TheFishMan65]

Some say it is an added expense. Some like it because it is easier to tune. Those are the only reasons for one over the other that I can remember.

 

[zeroinverse]

Gate valves you better control. Over ball valves

 

[BeanAnimal]

There really is no need to use a gate valve in this system... set it once and you are done.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Question on the system and balance. I currently have this setup on my 120 and love it, few adjustments a while back and it works flawlessly. I currently building a 400 plywood and would love to incorporate this into the build as well. Would it be possible to have both tanks drain into a large sump and still have the return flow working where neither overflow or drain the sump? I guess some ball valves would do the trick, but just wondering before I plan it out this way. I'm thinking a large tank to catch the water from the overflow, then having the returns pump it through a fuge type area, skimmer area, then back to the tank. Sorry this isn't all planned out yet, but before I invest a bunch of time in it I would like to know the chances of it working.

Multiple tanks and and a single sump are best served by multiple return pumps. In that way each tank works independantly of the other with regard to both draining and return.

 

[darb85]

There really is no need to use a gate valve in this system... set it once and you are done.

ball valves it is. Thanks