Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

You may be missing part of the picture here. The OC flow is very low compared to that of a typical standpipe, and therefore the flow dynamics are much different (by design). In other words, shelve your past experience and work within the design. If you stick fairly close to it, you will have no problems and it will work as published. You are free to adapt or tinker, but realize that doing so changes the flow dynamics and may push them outisde of the designs operating mode.

 

[ReefTeacher]

Hey guys...the trickle sound stopped on its own. It must have been the "slime postulate" as Floyd said. It truly is silent now....now just hopy my WaterBlaster quiets down in a week or so. Then I will have a truly quiet tank!

 

[dmastracchio]

For the most part, my system works pretty well. Minus the few snails who seem to brave the limits of the open air and crawl over my egg crate barrier and get sucked into the siphon, in which case get stuck in the ball valve, which has to be opened to get them out and then readjusted, it's silent.

I am wanting to relocate my ball valve from underneath the stand because having to reach in and to adjust it is almost impossible to do. Right now it's literally the last thing water passes through before it reaches the sump. I had problems with the ball valve being in the middle of the plumbing. It seemed to cause to great of a disturbance and it was never 100% silent.

Is the best location at the end? Or can I move it to right after the sanitary tee? I didn't account of the ball valves size as well so the way the plumbing goes through the stand, the union ball valve (1.5") is underneath the water a few inches. This doesn't allow for the siphon to fully start up again.

Thanks for the input.

 

[rrasco]

If you're going to redo the plumbing to move the valve, substitute it with a gate valve, it will provide you the precision needed to dial the siphon in to exactly the amount of flow you need. Also, the siphon start up is being hindered by the pressure required to force the air a few inches below the water surface. I had the same problem when my drains were about 5" into the water, I shortened them to about 1" and that solved that problem. Siphon starts on its own every time now.

 

[sean04]

I may be wrong about this but I remember reading about gate valves in this thread and that they are more susceptible to leaking then ball valves. Hence, ball valves are the recommended valve type. Also it was noted that with this setup (when following the design) will not require that fine of a tuning.

As I stated I may be wrong but this is what popped into my head about gate valves.

 

[dmastracchio]

If you're going to redo the plumbing to move the valve, substitute it with a gate valve, it will provide you the precision needed to dial the siphon in to exactly the amount of flow you need. Also, the siphon start up is being hindered by the pressure required to force the air a few inches below the water surface. I had the same problem when my drains were about 5" into the water, I shortened them to about 1" and that solved that problem. Siphon starts on its own every time now.

Gate valve just got delivered on my doorstep.

Funny how everything looks good on paper and drawings until you realize you have to reach over a tank of water through a 5" of clearance and 2' back to turn a ball valve that gets stuck usually, trying to precisely dial in the siphon.

 

[rrasco]

I may be wrong about this but I remember reading about gate valves in this thread and that they are more susceptible to leaking then ball valves. Hence, ball valves are the recommended valve type. Also it was noted that with this setup (when following the design) will not require that fine of a tuning.

As I stated I may be wrong but this is what popped into my head about gate valves.

I can tell you from first hand experience a ball valve did not give me the precision I needed to fine tune my system. The gate valve did.

I never heard about the gate valves leaking, the only thing that I can think of is that Jim recommends a KBI gate valve with the viton seals, primarily for the viton seals. There may be some truth to the rubber or EPDM seals wearing down in saltwater, but I am not sure on that front nor do I have the experience to back up either claim. I can tell you I did not buy one with viton seals so time will confront me with that experience. I will let you know when/if it fails.

 

[uncleof6]

For the most part, my system works pretty well. Minus the few snails who seem to brave the limits of the open air and crawl over my egg crate barrier and get sucked into the siphon, in which case get stuck in the ball valve, which has to be opened to get them out and then readjusted, it's silent.

I am wanting to relocate my ball valve from underneath the stand because having to reach in and to adjust it is almost impossible to do. Right now it's literally the last thing water passes through before it reaches the sump. I had problems with the ball valve being in the middle of the plumbing. It seemed to cause to great of a disturbance and it was never 100% silent.

Is the best location at the end? Or can I move it to right after the sanitary tee? I didn't account of the ball valves size as well so the way the plumbing goes through the stand, the union ball valve (1.5") is underneath the water a few inches. This doesn't allow for the siphon to fully start up again.

Thanks for the input.

It depends on the length of the drop. For a normal drop of a few feet, it should not make a difference. In the case of a basement drop, then the valve really should be as close to the sump as possible. Also, it is possible that the valve is closed too much, creating in effect, the same circumstance as a long drop. This is where flow rate/pipe size comes into the mix. In giving Bean's comments, concerning this issue, consideration, there is validity in the valve being closer to the sump, however.

 

[rrasco]

Gate valve just got delivered on my doorstep.

Funny how everything looks good on paper and drawings until you realize you have to reach over a tank of water through a 5" of clearance and 2' back to turn a ball valve that gets stuck usually, trying to precisely dial in the siphon.

You'll enjoy it much better; especially if it's somewhere you can reach easier. I could get two hands on my ball valve and it still would barely move, and when it did, it would jump further than I wanted it to. Same way trying to move it back. There was zero precision. That may be a factor of a cheap ball valve, but still. I was also worried about the stress being exerted through the bulkhead and to the glass. Now I can walk up and twist it a tad and wait for the system to equalize to get my water level just right for the open channel.

As a general rule (thanks Jim), ball valves are for on/off and gate valves are for flow control.

 

[sean04]

You'll enjoy it much better; especially if it's somewhere you can reach easier. I could get two hands on my ball valve and it still would barely move, and when it did, it would jump further than I wanted it to. Same way trying to move it back. There was zero precision. That may be a factor of a cheap ball valve, but still. I was also worried about the stress being exerted through the bulkhead and to the glass. Now I can walk up and twist it a tad and wait for the system to equalize to get my water level just right for the open channel.

As a general rule (thanks Jim), ball valves are for on/off and gate valves are for flow control.

I stand corrected then!

I might be having the same issues in reaching for the ball valves. If there isn't much of a concern for leaking then I might as well go for the gate valves. Seems like gate valves have a lot more upside to them.

 

[dmastracchio]

It depends on the length of the drop. For a normal drop of a few feet, it should not make a difference. In the case of a basement drop, then the valve really should be as close to the sump as possible. Also, it is possible that the valve is closed too much, creating in effect, the same circumstance as a long drop. This is where flow rate/pipe size comes into the mix. In giving Bean's comments, concerning this issue, consideration, there is validity in the valve being closer to the sump, however.

The drop for me is only about 5 feet into the sump. This is why I was hoping my placing the valve basically at the beginning of the siphon line, that I will prevent the disturbance.

I did just pull apart the old siphon and looked at the 1.5" ball valve. The valve is practically closed. Would you recommend possibly reducing the piping to a 1"?

 

[uncleof6]

The drop for me is only about 5 feet into the sump. This is why I was hoping my placing the valve basically at the beginning of the siphon line, that I will prevent the disturbance.

I did just pull apart the old siphon and looked at the 1.5" ball valve. The valve is practically closed. Would you recommend possibly reducing the piping to a 1"?

What flow rate?

 

[dirtefish]

Been reading this thread for ages and still not finished. But am gathering the last of my parts list for install starting next week.

One quick question, that is so simple Im laughing at myself for not finding the answer.

On the reducer bushing is slipxslip the same as slipxspig? Local plumbing store only has the slipxspig but clerks are telling me its the same thing. Clarification would be helpful since google isnt being so helpful at the moment.

A quick comment on the only design deviation, which is aesthetic and not a functional change.
One of the online suppliers I hit up for parts sells 1ft lengths of clear pvc. Its only 8 bucks for 1.5 sched 40 so was thinking to replace the regular pvc length that goes directly under the sanitary tee. Think it would be helpful to help dial in the siphon and set the open channel.

Lastly just a huge thank you to bean for existing. Ive never seen anyone carry a thread this long and still continue offering patient guidance to all of its followers. Your a credit to the hobby and a genius with design. Thank you for both this thread and your bar and grill.

Can't wait to post my finished set up. It will be your exact recipe with the only deviation having been adding some clear pvc for me to amuse myself watching clear water flow through a clear pipe.

 

[dirtefish]

Edit: Double Post

 

[eagle9252]

simple
slipxspig = female x male solvent weld

slip x slip = fm x fm = a coupling

 

[dirtefish]

So slipxspig is whats pictures in beans original exploded view of the plumbing? Got confused its labeled as slip x slip Thank you for the clarification

 

[fishtankcrazy]

Bean,

I'm about to order a 60"T * 30"D * 25"T 1/2" thick glass (195g) tank with an internal overflow. Eurobraced dropped 1/2" down, plus most likely two support braces from front to back.

I would prefer to run an almost coast to coast. Leaving just enough free room at the end to put bulkheads on the back panel for the returns.

Is there a certain dimension size I should request (Tall and Deep) for the overflow?

Is there a limit on how much return(s) and size I can run? I was thinking about 2 1" but was wondering if it could still handle more?

Also is there a reason you have to go from 1 1/2" to 1" to 1 1/4" on the piping going into the overflow? Is there any reason to not just make it 1 1/2" all the way?

 

[uncleof6]

Bean,

I'm about to order a 60"T * 30"D * 25"T 1/2" thick glass (195g) tank with an internal overflow. Eurobraced dropped 1/2" down, plus most likely two support braces from front to back.

I like the dimensions, very much like the tanks I build, wide and shallow, 200 to 300 gallons.

I would prefer to run an almost coast to coast. Leaving just enough free room at the end to put bulkheads on the back panel for the returns.

There is no problem with that, just a shorter weir. You will lose in the neighborhood of 8" of length for two 1" bulkheads.

Is there a certain dimension size I should request (Tall and Deep) for the overflow?

Depends on the size of the plumbing. If using 1.5" plumbing, the holes will be 2 3/8" in diameter, and a minimum of 2 3/8" down to the top of the holes, from the top edge of the glass. Then adding the size of the elbow, down to 1" below the elbow, less the 1" at the top, gives you the dimension for the height of the overflow. Width needs to be wide enough to get your hand in to work, and turn the elbows, generally around 4" front to back inside dimension. Safe guess with 1.5" plumbing is 6" height x 4" width. But it depends on where they pop the holes.

Is there a limit on how much return(s) and size I can run? I was thinking about 2 1" but was wondering if it could still handle more?

Size of the returns, really depends on the pump, and the friction loss of the system you design, and the flow rate you are looking for. In general, a single, rather than dual return, will give you better flow, less friction loss. It is a complex subject. The drain system at 1.5" all the way down, can handle more flow than you will probably care to throw at it.

Also is there a reason you have to go from 1 1/2" to 1" to 1 1/4" on the piping going into the overflow? Is there any reason to not just make it 1 1/2" all the way?

The reason BeanAnimal used 1" bulkheads, was because they were already installed in the tank when he designed the drain system. No reason for changing the pipe sizes, in various parts of the system, 1 size all the way.

 

[clozzzer]

I have a tank that is 72" long x 36 tall and 24 deep. How big should I make the overflow box? The max length I can get in my tank is 60" as I have a euro style acrylic and I don't wish to have two separate boxes and any bigger won't fit through the the holes in the top of my tank.

 

[uncleof6]

60" long it is then. Have to work with what you have. You will likely make up for the "lost length" at the ends of the overflow, or very close to it. Roughly 4" at either end.

Eurobraced tanks present a complication, in that you have to be able to get your hand inside the overflow to service it. Installation is not much of a problem, as the plumbing can be installed, prior to installing the overflow, and is probably a good idea anyway, as it will give you the exact height and width (front to back) needed to accommodate the plumbing, and still get your hand in, or in some way service it if required.